Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

+ Reply to Thread
Page 6 of 15 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 141
  1. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Not from this world...from the other side
    Posts
    3,237
    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    What about this.
    Quote:
    Septuagint
    Zechariah
    12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and compassion: and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked [me], and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved [friend], and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn [son].
    Masoretic
    Zechariah
    12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
    Good point gilgal!

    That means "those who pierced Him" means "those who mocked Him".

    Let's compare Zechariah 12 with Revelation 1:

    7 'Look, he is coming with the clouds,'[b]
    and 'every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him';
    and all peoples on earth 'will mourn because of him
    .'[c]
    So shall it be! Amen.

    Therefore, "those who pierced him" cannot be read literally but as "those who mocked him".

    Many Blessings.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,969
    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Quote:


    Good point gilgal! :thumb:

    That means "those who pierced Him" means "those who mocked Him".

    Let's compare with 'Look, he is coming with the clouds,'[b]
    and 'every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him';
    and all peoples on earth 'will mourn because of him
    .'[c]
    So shall it be! Amen.

    Therefore, "those who pierced him" cannot be read literally but as "those who mocked him".

    Many Blessings.
    But I think Revelation 1 shows that it must have been there, in Zechariah in the first place don't you think?

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Not from this world...from the other side
    Posts
    3,237
    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    But I think Revelation 1 shows that it must have been there, in Zechariah in the first place don't you think?
    It rather shows that John who wrote Revelation copied the verses from Zechariah.

    I have long believed "those who pierced him" to mean "those who hurt or mocked him", and rthis has been supported by many commentaries in the internet. I wonder if those who really pierced him would still be alive to see him in AD70 and "all eyes will see him" would suggest all peoples living in the Roman Emopire then will see him not just those in Jerusalem.

    Obviously, there are some similarities between Zechariah 12 and Revelation1:

    Revelation:“every eye will see him,
    Zechariah: they shall look upon me, ,
    Revelation: even those who pierced him”;
    Zechariah: because they have mocked [me]
    Revelation: and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

    Zechariah: and they shall make lamentation for him,

    Many Blessings.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,969
    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    It rather shows that John who wrote Revelation copied the verses from Zechariah.

    I have long believed "those who pierced him" to mean "those who hurt or mocked him", and rthis has been supported by many commentaries in the internet. I wonder if those who really pierced him would still be alive to see him in AD70 and "all eyes will see him" would suggest all peoples living in the Roman Emopire then will see him not just those in Jerusalem.

    Obviously, there are some similarities between and :

    Revelation:'every eye will see him,
    Zechariah: they shall look upon me, ,
    Revelation: even those who pierced him';
    Zechariah: because they have mocked [me]
    Revelation: and all peoples on earth 'will mourn because of him.'

    Zechariah: and they shall make lamentation for him,

    Many Blessings.
    When it says they'll see him I think it means from their grave or hell (if they haven't believed).

  5. #55

    The answer is yes and no

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    So the real question is this: Do we have any direct evidence of willful corruption of any verse in the MT?
    We do have direct evidence of corruption of Zechariah 14:5 in the MT. Lots of it. Scientific evidence, photographic evidence, historical evidence, etc.

    Willfull? eh... Well, yes and no. Willful corruption of the scriptures per se? Definately no. Willful corruption of a liturgical form of Zechariah 14: 5, that eventually became part of the tradition (masorah) that was preserved in the MT by the masorah preservers (Masoretes)? Definately yes.

    It's explained here - zechariahfourteenfive.wordpress.com. Too detailed for me to attempt an explanation here. I posted this earlier today in another post which you may have already seen, but it's too pertinent to your question to not post it again.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    14,804
    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    We do have direct evidence of corruption of Zechariah 14:5 in the MT. Lots of it. Scientific evidence, photographic evidence, historical evidence, etc.

    Willfull? eh... Well, yes and no. Willful corruption of the scriptures per se? Definately no. Willful corruption of a liturgical form of Zechariah 14: 5, that eventually became part of the tradition (masorah) that was preserved in the MT by the masorah preservers (Masoretes)? Definately yes.

    It's explained here - zechariahfourteenfive.wordpress.com. Too detailed for me to attempt an explanation here. I posted this earlier today in another post which you may have already seen, but it's too pertinent to your question to not post it again.
    Hey there HRFTD,

    That's an excellent article you wrote! The analysis is sharp and clear. I strongly recommend it to anyone interested in the Bible, especially if they focus on Eschatology.

    It's amazing to me how much confusion there is in just one verse. And it just so happens to be from one of the favorite passages used by Futurists to "prove" there will be a yet future "second coming." Fascinating stuff.

    But I would take exception to your idea about "temporal discontinuities" in the prophecies. The two time periods described in Isaiah 61:2 as "the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God" are connected in a continuous flow of time. They form a continuous unit. The "day of vengeance" was the end of the "the acceptable year." Your citation of Luke 4:18 as proof of a temporal discontinuity ignores Luke 21:22 which identifies 70 AD as the culmination of the "days of vengeance." Jesus didn't mention the "days of vengeance" in Luke 4:18 because it didn't fit that context. But when we look at Luke as a whole, we see that the "acceptable year of the Lord" and the "day of vengeance of our God" form a continuous whole. This is confirmed in Peter's Pentecostal sermon in which he connected Salvation and the outpouring of the Spirit with the "great and terrible day of the Lord." And it is confirmed again in the prophecy of John the Baptist who prepared the way for Christ and warned of the judgment that would soon follow. I see absolutely no Biblical evidence anywhere for a gap of 2000+ years.

    Also, I'd like to welcome you to the forum!



    A serious student like you is a great addition around here.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #57

    Thanks for your kind and encouraging comments

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    It's amazing to me how much confusion there is in just one verse. And it just so happens to be from one of the favorite passages used by Futurists to "prove" there will be a yet future "second coming." Fascinating stuff.
    Yes, it is amazing. And I'm amazed that the truth has remain hidden for so long. Aren't we supposed to be the children of truth? btw, I believe there will be future "second coming" of Christ. I've never considered this passage a proof text, though.
    But I would take exception to your idea about "temporal discontinuities" in the prophecies. The two time periods described in Isaiah 61:2 as "the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God" are connected in a continuous flow of time. They form a continuous unit. The "day of vengeance" was the end of the "the acceptable year." Your citation of Luke 4:18 as proof of a temporal discontinuity ignores Luke 21:22 which identifies 70 AD as the culmination of the "days of vengeance." Jesus didn't mention the "days of vengeance" in Luke 4:18 because it didn't fit that context. But when we look at Luke as a whole, we see that the "acceptable year of the Lord" and the "day of vengeance of our God" form a continuous whole. This is confirmed in Peter's Pentecostal sermon in which he connected Salvation and the outpouring of the Spirit with the "great and terrible day of the Lord." And it is confirmed again in the prophecy of John the Baptist who prepared the way for Christ and warned of the judgment that would soon follow. I see absolutely no Biblical evidence anywhere for a gap of 2000+ years.
    I'm aware that that part might need some rework, but have ignored it for a long time. Kind of tired of the whole thing. I'll prayerfully consider your comments, though and get back with you.

    I can, however, make a few comments right now regarding the 2000 year "gap". As far as I'm concerned, there has been no gap. For nearly 2000 years there has been tremendous activity in the kingdom of God building the temple of God, and perfecting the iniquity of the world. At no other time in history has the ability existed, as it does now, to destroy the world in a conflagration (as predicted by the prophets). That took nearly 2000 years to accomplish. How could Christ realistically return before then? The only gap I see is the gap Christ is standing in between us and eternal death.

    As far as there being no scriptural evidence for a 2000-year "gap"... well can't the same be said for a 40-year "gap' ending in 70AD? I do actually think, though, that there is scriptural evidence pointing to a 2000-year time period separating Christ's entrance beyond the veil and his body entering into full salvation.

    I think you will agree that God won't do anything without first telling his prophets; and that he will do what he says. Also, since he is the same yesterday, today, and forever we can logically and rationally expect that now and in the future he will act in ways consistent with how he has acted in the past. That being said, consider that natural Israel underwent 3 baptisms: in the Red Sea, and under the cloud unto Moses (1 Corinthians 10:2); and in the Jordan River unto Joshua. These are shadows of supernatural (spiritual) Israel's baptisms unto Christ: water baptism, baptism of the spirit, and ... ??? The third baptism doesn't seem to have occurred.

    Based on the mentioned biblical pattern, we can logically and rationally expect supernatural Israel at some point in the future to undergo another baptism that has been foreshadowed by natural Israel's baptism in the Jordan. Natural Israel entered into new life in the land of Israel as the the ark of the covenant in the midst of the Jordan stood between her and death. Likewise, at some point in the future, supernatural Israel will enter into eternal life as the true ark (Christ) stands between her and eternal death at the first resurrection.

    Here's the interesting part. It is written in Joshua 3 (Joshua 3:4 specifically) that when the ark entered into the Jordan (signifying death), a distance of approximately 2000 cubits separated it from the body of natural Israel; who then traversed the approximate 2000-cubit distance to cross the Jordan.
    There shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure. Do not come near it, that you may know the way by which you must go, for you have not passed this way before. Joshua 3:4
    Does this foreshadow the body of supernatural Israel entering into eternal life approximately 2000 years after Christ entered into death on her behalf? We shall see. It certainly gets my attention. Make of it what you will.
    Last edited by HeRoseFromTheDead; 10-05-2011 at 10:55 PM. Reason: Because I'm a flawed, sinful man

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    14,804
    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    I can, however, make a few comments right now regarding the 2000 year "gap". As far as I'm concerned, there has been no gap. For nearly 2000 years there has been tremendous activity in the kingdom of God building the temple of God, and perfecting the iniquity of the world. At no other time in history has the ability existed, as it does now, to destroy the world in a conflagration (as predicted by the prophets). That took nearly 2000 years to accomplish. How could Christ realistically return before then? The only gap I see is the gap Christ is standing in between us and eternal death.
    Have you studied the meaning of all the words translated as "world" in the Bible? From my studies, there is no basis for the idea of a "global conflagration." For example, Paul said that the Gospel had been preached in "all the earth [ge]" and had gone out unto the "ends of the world [kosmos]" (Rom 10:18). And there are many similar examples. The idea that the Bible says anything about the globe of planet earth seems entirely anachronistic and false to me. I gave a pretty comprehensive list of all the words translated as "world" in this post from the thread called Is the World really the World?.

    Your question "How could Christ realistically return before then?" implicitly contains a mountain of unbiblical assumptions about the meaning of the "Second Coming of Christ." That idea is not even in the Bible. The Bible talks about the "Coming of the Son of Man" not the "Second Coming." It seems to me that there was one "coming" that began with his birth, death, and resurrection and was consummated in the judgment he poured out on Jerusalem in 70 AD. That's how it was presented int he prophecies - John the Baptist came as a forerunner of Christ warning of the judgment that would soon follow, known as the "great and notable day of the Lord" which was the same "day of the Lord" Peter preached about (quoting Joel). If the Bible is to make any sense at all, it seems that we must understand thje preaching of John the Baptist and Peter as predicting Christ and the day of Judgment in 70 AD. But I'm open to correction, of course!

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    As far as there being no scriptural evidence for a 2000-year "gap"... well can't the same be said for a 40-year "gap' ending in 70AD?
    There is a difference. Not every passage of time should be called a "gap." The 40 years was part of a continuous, single generation just like Christ predicted -
    Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.... 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    The fact that it took some time does not mean there was a "gap." All events take time. And the events unfolded as predicted. This cannot be said of any 2000+ year gap. There is no prediction of a gap like that. There is no foundation for it in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    I do actually think, though, that there is scriptural evidence pointing to a 2000-year time period separating Christ's entrance beyond the veil and his body entering into full salvation.

    I think you will agree that God won't do anything without first telling his prophets; and that he will do what he says. Also, since he is the same yesterday, today, and forever we can logically and rationally expect that now and in the future he will act in ways consistent with how he has acted in the past. That being said, consider that natural Israel underwent 3 baptisms: in the Red Sea, and under the cloud unto Moses (1 Corinthians 10:2); and in the Jordan River unto Joshua. These are shadows of supernatural (spiritual) Israel's baptisms unto Christ: water baptism, baptism of the spirit, and ... ??? The third baptism doesn't seem to have occurred.

    Based on the mentioned biblical pattern, we can logically and rationally expect supernatural Israel at some point in the future to undergo another baptism that has been foreshadowed by natural Israel's baptism in the Jordan. Natural Israel entered into new life in the land of Israel as the the ark of the covenant in the midst of the Jordan stood between her and death. Likewise, at some point in the future, supernatural Israel will enter into eternal life as the true ark (Christ) stands between her and eternal death at the first resurrection.

    Here's the interesting part. It is written in Joshua 3 (Joshua 3:4 specifically) that when the ark entered into the Jordan (signifying death), a distance of approximately 2000 cubits separated it from the body of natural Israel; who then traversed the approximate 2000-cubit distance to cross the Jordan. Does this foreshadow the body of supernatural Israel entering into eternal life approximately 2000 years after Christ entered into death on her behalf? We shall see. It certainly gets my attention. Make of it what you will.
    That kind of typology is useful only to illustrate doctrines that have been explicitly stated elsewhere. If you begin to create doctrines using that kind of typology, there will be no limit to what you can make up. We must begin with the main and the plain things. There is no justification to make a 2000 year gap just because we happen to be living about 2000 years after Christ. Don't you know that people have always made up reasons to think they are in the "end times?" Luther thought he was in the "end times" five hundred years ago! And he could make up plenty of seemingly convincing arguments from the Bible. People have been doing this for 2000 thousand years, and they have always been wrong. It would be foolish in the extreme to forget this fact. Harold Camping said that the Bible absolutely guaranteed that the Rapture would happen on May 21, 2011. His followers gave him 80 MILLION DOLLARS in five short years between 2005-2009. He used the same "2000 cubits" argument from Joshua. And "confirmed" it with the 2000 swine that drowned themselves in the sea (Mark 5:13).

    I hope you take no offense from anything I am saying. I am merely trying to speak plainly. I've discussed these issues for some years and I have found the arguments for the idea that we are currently in the "end times" to be without any biblical foundation whatsoever. The Bible explicitly and repeatedly states that the end times happened in the first century.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,965
    I believe the best way to explain the "gap" problem is to simply review the story of the Hebrews having been set free from Egypt. There's the "typology" of the Old Testament that builds a picture of what was to happen in New Covenant times.

    God gave them a Prophet named Moses. Moses delivers them out of Egypt and takes them to terrible and frightening mountain. They are given the commandments and the laws and began their journey to the promised land. But because of disobedience, more than 3,000 were killed; they would spend the next 40 years wandering the wilderness until the end of that generation. Then, after purging the unfaithful from their generation, they entered into the promised land and began clearing out the sinners.

    Now, jump forward to Christ. The Israelite's were trapped in a law of slavery into sin. A Prophet was sent to set them free; Jesus the Christ. On the day of Pentecost, instead of 3,000 being killed, 3,000 were added to the covenant of grace and life. This is when they were given the Laws of Christ, and would spend the next 40 years wandering aimlessly in the wilderness preaching and teaching the laws of Christ. This wandering would last as long as it did in the former wilderness as led by Moses. At the end of the 40 years, their generation had been purged of sinners and left for destruction/judgment that was to come upon the Harlot city. After the Harlot city was destroyed, and the former Temple of God laid wasted, the "remnant" of the Israeli generation entered into the promised land, and began clearing out the new world; a world containing the spread of Christianity.

    We have the type, and the anti-type. Moses delivered the Laws of God, and Jesus delivered His Laws, through the Spirit, and not the letter.

    SO was there a gap? No, there wasn't. The "Time of the end" was in reference to Daniel's people, temple, and city. After the "time of the end" had expired, the new world began to take shape. And since that time, the new world still contains the fragrance, knowledge, and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ; the huge mountain, also called the heavenly Jerusalem, still to this day, is the largest kingdom on the face of this planet.

    Hope this helps.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Have you studied the meaning of all the words translated as "world" in the Bible? From my studies, there is no basis for the idea of a "global conflagration."
    I was referring to world, the veneer of civilization, kosmos. It will be burned up; the earth will remain. OK. Let's approach it from another angle. Can an honest, contemporary student of history and human nature realistically think that a global conflagration will not happen? And yet this was predicted thousands of years ago by some who knew the spirit of God, but nothing about our technology.
    Your question "How could Christ realistically return before then?" implicitly contains a mountain of unbiblical assumptions about the meaning of the "Second Coming of Christ." That idea is not even in the Bible. The Bible talks about the "Coming of the Son of Man" not the "Second Coming." ... thje preaching of John the Baptist and Peter as predicting Christ and the day of Judgment in 70 AD. But I'm open to correction, of course!
    I think the assertion that a "second" coming is not to occur contains a mountain of denial of existing biblical evidence, not to mention a spiritual dullness. The wording of that phrase is definately not in the bible, but the idea of a final and irremediable return of Christ to our physical domain definately is. I am beginning to see that there are many "comings". I think a better translation of this word may be "becoming", signifying a manifestation of eternal reality in our temporal domain. Please see my recent comment here for a better explanation. I agree that John's and Peter's warnings pertained to Judah, but they are also applicable to spiritual Israel by virtue of the hermeneutic principle set forth by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:46 - first the natural type, then the spiritual reality. The spiritual realities that remain are more real than the natural things that pass away. Do we agree on this point?
    There is a difference. Not every passage of time should be called a "gap." The 40 years was part of a continuous, single generation just like Christ predicted -
    Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.... 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    The fact that it took some time does not mean there was a "gap." All events take time. And the events unfolded as predicted. This cannot be said of any 2000+ year gap. There is no prediction of a gap like that. There is no foundation for it in the Bible.
    Those born of Christ are his seed, and counted as a generation. When dealing with eternal realities, 2000 years is irrelevant. You are mixing physical and spiritual realities, or perhaps are failing to discern the difference between the two. I agree with your interpretation of Luke 21:22. However, that is only at one level, the natural one. It is applicable at the spirtual level, too.
    That kind of typology is useful only to illustrate doctrines that have been explicitly stated elsewhere. If you begin to create doctrines using that kind of typology, there will be no limit to what you can make up.
    Paul said it; I didn't. If you do not understand this most basic principle, you cannot understand the bible beyond its surface. It's a very confusing book at that level.

    People have been [predicting the end of the world] for 2000 thousand years, and they have always been wrong. It would be foolish in the extreme to forget this fact. Harold Camping ... used the same "2000 cubits" argument from Joshua. And "confirmed" it with the 2000 swine that drowned themselves in the sea (Mark 5:13).
    I agree that it is foolish to ignore false prophets' foolishness. However, the fact that so many have erred by predicting a specific time of the end doesn't prove that an end time will not happen. It just proves that they were deceived and stupid. And Camping's misapplication on one level doesn't neccessarily invalidate everything he says. His co-opting of those scriptures in order to justify his iniquitous stupidity is exactly why I don't openly discuss truths I know about the book of Revelation. Bill Britton exposited on those scriptures many years ago, and since then a horde of iniquitous, carnal people have appropriated them to work their own foolishness.
    I hope you take no offense from anything I am saying. I am merely trying to speak plainly. I've discussed these issues for some years and I have found the arguments for the idea that we are currently in the "end times" to be without any biblical foundation whatsoever.
    You have a truth-seeking heart and mind. How could I be offended with that? I posit that your inability to discern the biblical foundation is due to spirtual dullness, rather than its non-existence. I hope my frankness doesn't offend you.
    The Bible explicitly and repeatedly states that the end times happened in the first century.
    Well, yes, that's true... for Judah. We are living in a different age. God has not left us without a witness as to what will happen in this age. And that witness clearly describes an end time.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •