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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Yes you're right. But my eyes are opened about the Septuagint. Could it be that the King James Translators didn't have a copy of the Septuagint available to them? Greek I think was introduced to western Europe after Constantinople fell and Greek scholars fled west.
    The Greek Orthodox Church has used the Septuagint throughout all of their existence. The King James scholars, however, were given the Masoretic Text and that is what they used. Keep also in mind that since the 10th century, the RCC and the Greek Orthodox Church refuse to rejoin as they once were prior to the 10th century. So the RCC has always done its thing, while the GOC does theirs.

    I purchased the new Orthodox Study Bible last week, and thus far, I love it. It uses the Greek Septuagint of the Old Testament, and even contains other letters rejected by the Protestant Churches, from the Masoretic Text of course.

    I don't believe that the Greek Septuagint is perfect, but at least it doesn't possess (to the best of my knowledge) willful alterations made by the Masoretes merely because they refuse to except Jesus as the Messiah. It's obvious that the Masoretes do not want foreigners to participate in the worship of God EXCEPT according to their desires, patterns, and beliefs; without Jesus of course.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    The Greek Orthodox Church has used the Septuagint throughout all of their existence. The King James scholars, however, were given the Masoretic Text and that is what they used. Keep also in mind that since the 10th century, the RCC and the Greek Orthodox Church refuse to rejoin as they once were prior to the 10th century. So the RCC has always done its thing, while the GOC does theirs.

    I purchased the new Orthodox Study Bible last week, and thus far, I love it. It uses the Greek Septuagint of the Old Testament, and even contains other letters rejected by the Protestant Churches, from the Masoretic Text of course.

    I don't believe that the Greek Septuagint is perfect, but at least it doesn't possess (to the best of my knowledge) willful alterations made by the Masoretes merely because they refuse to except Jesus as the Messiah. It's obvious that the Masoretes do not want foreigners to participate in the worship of God EXCEPT according to their desires, patterns, and beliefs; without Jesus of course.

    Joe
    I wonder if there's going to be a need to write a new and perfect version of the bible putting all this together.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I wonder if there's going to be a need to write a new and perfect version of the bible putting all this together.

    So far, I've found the Orthodox Study Bible to be a very awesome translation. It's reader friendly while trying to maintain true to the literal translation where possible. The only mistake I've found so far is their continued use of the Latin word "Lucifer", which should have been translated as "morning star". Other than that, so far so good.

    I also wish it would contain the Maccabee's book's 3 and 4; it only contains 1 and 2. Maccebee's contains a detailed account of what happened between the Jews and Greek (Seleucids) under Antiochus IV when he committed an abomination to the temple of God.

    Here's a site if you're interested in purchasing the new Bible. Thus far, it is not available on line electronically; at least not yet. I purchased mine from a local Bible store who had to order it for me; I don't trust credit/debit card agencies anymore, having learned that those who work in the credit/debit department are stealing recorded card numbers, and selling those numbers to buyers on line, usually in bundles.

    http://orthodoxstudybible.com/

    Historically speaking, the Greek Orthodox Church does not use an official Bible as Protestants do. They have a collection of copied letters, although some (or most) American Greek Orthodox Churches use the Greek Septuagint, often read in Greek I might add, during their liturgy. They also use a collection of the New Testament writings, more specifically from the Textus Recepticus (TR). The Orthodox Study Bible is very close to the New King James Bible in the New Testament, except it seems to copy traditions of the Majority Text, instead of the TR text.

    All in all, I'm throwing out all of my English Bibles except the NKJV and my new Orthodox Study Bible. Should you decide to buy one, just ignore the foot-notes by the Orthodox Academy. It appears they are Partial Preterists, but has some elements of Futurism. For instance, the GOC seems to believe (based on the OSB) that Daniel and Matthew 24 were fulfilled in the first century, but Daniel 12 to them is yet to come; they adapt to the Anti-Christ being trying to making peace with Jerusalem. Much of their quotes comes within their foot-notes were quotes from an early church father St. Hippolytus of Rome. If I were to label their eschatology (again based from the Orthodox Study Bible), it matches very closely with Partial Preterism with elements of Futurism. They do not believe that the world will ever end, but that it will be instantaneously transformed into the eternal state. They also reject any teaching of a literal Millennial reign. And to this day, Revelation is not read during liturgy because of its violent contents.

    Finally, although the Orthodox Study Bible quotes the writings of St. Hippolytus of Rome (2nd century), be careful of his interpretation. Hippolytus does a fair job explaining the beasts according to Daniel's vision, but he makes a mistake with the 10 toes. For more information on St. Hippolytus, here's a link:

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...us-christ.html

    It's obvoius that St. Hippolytus was a disciple of St. Iranaeus, thus he was misled by the myth of an Anti-Christ coming out of the cit of Dan, and that the 10 toes of Daniel's vision represents a future kingdom (NOT ROMAN I MIGHT ADD) from the Anti-Christ who comes out of Dan to declare himself as the awaited Messiah upon the Jews (NOT JESUS). This explains where some of our modern day Futurists are getting their ideas. St. Hippolytus understood the two legs of Iron to represent Rome of his day, but he then disconnects the feet of iron mixed with 10 toes of iron and clay, and counts this as a future kingdom established by the Anti-Christ. St. Eusebius of the 3rd century, rejected this idea. Note also that St. Hippolytus was part of a schism who broke away from the Catholic Church, but later rejoined upon his death (wikipedia).

    Anyways, I hope you decide to get it; you won't regret it.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 04-14-2011 at 04:43 AM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #44
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    Does Psalm 22 Prophesy the Crucifixion of Christ?

    Does Psalm 22 Prophesy the Crucifixion of Christ?
    http://www.christiancourier.com/arti...xion-of-christ
    'They pierced my hands and my feet ' The text should read: 'Like a lion (Hebrew KeAri), they are at my hands and feet.'
    ...
    In addition, we must note that in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which pre-date the common Hebrew texts by a thousand years, the term clearly is 'pierced,' not 'lion' (VanderKam / Flint, 124).

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Does Psalm 22 Prophesy the Crucifixion of Christ?
    http://www.christiancourier.com/arti...xion-of-christ
    That is correct.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    That is correct. :thumb:

    Joe
    Here's the Septuagint and the King James side-by-side for comparison, which I just found out:
    http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx-kjv/
    So here it is:
    Psalm 40
    Septuagint
    40:6
    Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and [sacrifice] for sin thou didst not require.
    Masoretic
    40:6
    Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
    So it seems that the quote in Hebrews 10:
    Hebrews 10
    5
    Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    Is taken either from the Septuagint or another text close to the Septuagint.
    Last edited by gilgal; 04-21-2011 at 09:23 PM.

  7. #47
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    So it seems that the quote in Hebrews 10:

    Quote:
    Hebrews 10
    5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    Is taken either from the Septuagint or another text close to the Septuagint.
    __________________
    Because the letter to the Hebrews was written in Greek, I myself believe the author (possibly Paul) was quoting from the Greek Septuagint. At the same time, the Torah during his day was probably pure, and un-altered. And we know that Paul spoke Hebrew as well. The Torah, as it was passed down from the 2nd century to the 10th century, has (in my opinion based on contextual comparisons) has been altered by Hellenistic Jews to remove hints of Prophesy pointing directly at Jesus.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Because the letter to the Hebrews was written in Greek, I myself believe the author (possibly Paul) was quoting from the Greek Septuagint. At the same time, the Torah during his day was probably pure, and un-altered. And we know that Paul spoke Hebrew as well. The Torah, as it was passed down from the 2nd century to the 10th century, has (in my opinion based on contextual comparisons) has been altered by Hellenistic Jews to remove hints of Prophesy pointing directly at Jesus.

    Joe
    Hellenistic Jews? What do you mean? This time you're not talking about the Masoretic Text. Then what?

    What other alterations are there in the Masoretic Text?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Hellenistic Jews? What do you mean? This time you're not talking about the Masoretic Text. Then what?

    What other alterations are there in the Masoretic Text?
    The Hellenistic Jews are believes to have been Jews corrupted from the truth during the days of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. This branch of Jews were contaminated by the Gentiles, and continued even after the 1st century. Later, the Hellenists became known as "Masoretes" well after the 2nd century. This group of Jews vowed to retain the Torah and were left in charge of maintaining the Torah.

    In the 4rth century, St. Jerome decided translate the Old Testament directly from the Torah instead of relying on the Septuagint. The Catholic Church condemned him for doing this.

    Some of the 2nd century Church Fathers noted how the Torah that was kept by the Hellenistic Jews (or Masoretes) tampered with certain passages used to support Jesus. To prevent future Jews from seeing these connections, it is believed that they altered, or else deleted, passages from the Old Testament; any verse that was vital to proving Jesus as the Messiah.

    Centuries continue and by the 10th century, the RCC was given a copy of the 10th century Torah. Meanwhile, the Greek Orthodox Church (Churches that began in Asia Minor by the Apostle Paul) to this day continues to use copies of the Greek Septuagint. Finally, after years of waiting, the Greek Orthodox Church has released a Bible called the "Orthodox Study Bible", which contains the Old Testament from the Greek Septuagint. As stated, I've fallen in love with this Bible. It's very reader-friendly, and quite an enjoyment to read. I could do without the Bishops notes, but I just ignore those.

    Oops, sorry for drifting bro. Anyways, the Hellenistic Jews were those who did not remain faithful to traditional Judaism, but instead corrupted the Old Testament to remove any verses proving Jesus was/is the Messiah. Later, after then 2nd century, is when I believe they were referred to as Masoretes.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  10. #50
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    What about this.
    Septuagint
    Zechariah
    12:10
    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and compassion: and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked [me], and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved [friend], and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn [son].
    Masoretic
    Zechariah
    12:10
    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

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