Masoretic Text vs. Greek Septuagint

[Timmy]

BibleScribe,

This was swiftly done, so if Gk. methods of spelling and grammar are not familiar, and you think there may be an error, please check elsewhere first, as:

1. Current preoccupation IRL leaves very little time for the Whirled Whyd Web right now; however, the hope was given, which in these eyes is at times as good as promised, so here's the stuff requested (to the best of ability given current circumstantial time constraints).

2. There are plenty of books (now currently) available that can teach one Greek linguistics, possibly--
even online(?)==>(for little or no cost probably).

3. If there are errors, it is due to the swiftness this task was performed...and if indeed there be any errors imperative to textual understanding, your typical Exhuastive Strong's is NOT suggested, but rather something like: Woodside Bible Fellowship's Enhanced (complete with morph info), combined with something like Mickelson's Enhanced Strongs Exhaustive.
All words not found listed in Strong's are (at least) provided with: " -["morphological analysis codes"] "
(Granted, there are things in the LXX that are not found in the Koine' Gk. N.T.)
Your best bet though, is a good lexicon, like Liddel-Scott-Jones' Lexicon for Classical Greek, and Brown-Driver-Brigg's for Ancient Hebrew. (Though several Hebrew Resources are with me, For Greek, there is the old standby SED, the Woodside Bible Fellowship Enhanced Strong's Exhaustive and other word study books towards the whole of scriptures.
You could check with Henderson Publishing to see what might be available with the LXX if that is what is of interest. (It's a guess; but if they do not have it, calling them could lead to info towards sources. They sure have helped here in the past.)

Strong's dictionary falls short with LXX linguistics. for this reason, it can only be used comparatively, with different instances where Koine' words relative to the Greek which it was wriiten in lack: syntax, nuance, idiom, definition, and grammatic qualities. I do not have time right now to copy and list instances of various words undefined by Strongs, as to where they find usage other places in the Miqra.

Daniel 9:
2
και-2532 εδωκα-1352 το-3588 προσωπον-4383 μου-1473 προς-4314 κυριον-2962 τον-3588 θεον-2316 του-5120 εκζητησαι-1567 προσευχην-4335 και-2532 δεησεις-1162 εν-1722 νηστειαις-3521 και-2532 σακκω-4526 και-2532 σποδω-4700


25
και-2532 μετα-3326 τας-3588 εβδομαδας-[V-FPI-3S] τας-3588 εξηκοντα-1835 δυο-1417 εξολεθρευθησεται-[V-FPI-3S] χρισμα-2917 και-2532 κριμα-2917 ουκ-3378 εστιν-2076 εν-1722 αυτω-846 και-2532 την-3588 πολιν και-2532 το-3588 αγιον-39 διαφθερει-1311 συν-4862 τω-3588 ηγουμενω-2233 τω-3588 ερχομενω-2064 και-2532 εκκοπησονται-[V-FMI-3P] εν-1722 κατακλυσμω-2627 και-2532 εως-2193 τελους-5056 πολεμου-4171 συντετμημενου-4932 ταξει-5010 αφανισμοις-854
26
και-2532 δυναμωσει-1412 διαθηκην-1242 πολλοις-4183 εβδομας-[N-NSF] μια-1519 και-2532 εν-1722 τω-3588 ημισει-[A-DSM] της-3588 εβδομαδος-[N-GSF] αρθησεται-142 μου-1473 θυσια και-2532 σπονδη και-2532 επι-1909 το-3588 ιερον-2378 βδελυγμα-946 των-3588 ερημωσεων-2050 και-2532 εως-2193 συντελειας-4930 καιρου-2540 συντελεια-4930 δοθησεται-1325 επι-1909 την-3588 ερημωσιν-2050




I Kings 3:
9
και-2532 ηρεσεν-700 ενωπιον-1799 κυριου-2962 οτι-3754 ητησατο-154 σαλωμων-[N-PRI] το-3588 -3588 ρημα-4487 τουτο-3788
10
και-2532 ειπεν-[V-AAI-3S] κυριος-2962 προς-4314 αυτον-846 ανθ-473 ων-3739 ητησω-154 παρ-3844 εμου-1473 το-3588 ρημα-4488 τουτο-3778 και-2532 ουκ-3364 ητησω-154 σαυτω-4572 ημερας-2250 πολλας-4183 και-2532 ουκ-3364 ητησω-154 πλουτον-4149 ουδε-3761 ητησω-154 ψυχας-5590 εχθρων-2190 σου-4771 αλλ-235 ητησω-154 σαυτω-4572 συνεσιν-4907 του-5120 εισακουειν-1522 κριμα-2917
11
ιδου-2400 πεποιηκα-4160 κατα-2596 το-3588 ρημα-4487 σου-4771 ιδου-2400 δεδωκα-1325 σοι-4771 καρδιαν-2588 φρονιμην-5429 και-2532 σοφην-4680 ως-3739 συ-4771 ου-3364 γεγονεν-1096 εμπροσθεν-1715 σου-4771 και-2532 μετα-3326 σε-4571 ουκ-3378 αναστησεται-450 ομοιος-3664 σοι-4671
12
και-2532 α-1 ουκ-3378 ητησω-1545 δεδωκα-1325 σοι-4671 και-2532 πλουτον-4149 και-2532 δοξαν-1391 ως-3739 ου-3756 γεγονεν-1096 ανηρ-435 ομοιος-3664 σοι-4671 εν-1722 βασιλευσιν-935
13
και-2532 εαν-1437 πορευθης-4198 εν-1722 τη-3588 οδω-3588 μου-1473 φυλασσειν-4198 τας-3588 εντολας-1785 μου-1473 και-2532 τα-3588 προσταγματα-[N-APN] μου-1473 ως-3739 επορευθη-4198 δαυιδ-[N-PRI] ο-3588 πατηρ-3962 σου-4771 και-2532 πληθυνω-4129 τας-3588 ημερας-2250 σου-4771

About that lil' prodigy neice who is currently 17, was told about Solomon (in the instance above). She prayed that God would gift her with the ability of music. She did not get exactly what she asked for either; however, she can now play any instrument with very little effort except for first familiarizing herself with the mechanisms necessary to alter sounds produced. I once watched her write a complete string quartet medley w/trumpet, taking three songs, transposing all the keys in each song to make them compatible for trumpet and blend together with each other. She spent less than half an hour doing this, and without writing her part, played piano with them as a sextet immediately after the rewrite. Yaweh has gifted her with this ability as she prayed, and now when asked, she brags how God made it all come about when she was just 8 years old.
(She also enjoys, and does excellently playing flute, trumpet & cello, but now prefers piano, since my BIL and sis bought her a grand piano on her sweet 16 birthday. Before that, they did not even have a piano. She plays every fretted instrument imaginable, but thinks there really is no challenge to them.)

i bow down amazed at what God can and will do with any humble and willing soul.


...and your issue brought up previously over the word "UNTIL" was described to me in this way
This is best taken
--that is, if one can accept that a Hebraic understanding of a certain rabbinically trained Messianic Hebrew scribe is more viable toward knowing--
the actual meaning of the Hebrew word to mean that Daniel died during the first year of the reign of Koresh.
(As in, "pay no mind to the man behind to curtain," personal opinion is that whenever any translation from one language into another, when the source text gives greater specifics than the synonyms used in the attempted rendering, ignore whatever of the morphed text which is not adding understanding to what is actually from the source text itself.

In this case, "until" is "until" in English, however, here it's Hebrew meaning is better understood to be "onward-into",
-[OR "intil", so as to say not "onto", but "unto" if one can get their head around that]--
verified by this words surrounding text, which there really is not the time or space to detail explanations as to why.


Personal opinion of the LXX is that it is a sorry substitute for the Hebrew, even as English is a sorry substitute for the Koine Greek (moreso for Classical); as well, English serves sorriest of all as substitute for ancient Hebrew. Anyone who disagrees, or thinks that Hebrew Text was altered (by Masorites or whomever) does not have a clue as to how meticulously duplicate Tanakh scrolls are written (UNDER STRICT SUPERVISION OF SEVERAL 'OVERSEERS'). This notion of alteration of Hebrew scriptures
--(apart from additional markings towards appropriate linguistics)--
though farcicle, appears to be par for the course of Western Orthodoxy and resultingly much of Protestant anti-semitic misunderstandings (often w/o realizing, and taking offense over the very things they do not even understand).

Anyway, the Greek is presumed here to be a non-fully "functional equivalent" to original manuscripts. It can serve for comparative purposes, yet Western and Eastern customs, traditions, thought, and world view paradigms are worlds apart even today.


I'll tell anyone the above is just an opinion as i am not up for any more mooning contests or anyone getting hoof-in-mouth dis-ease. You know what they say:
You can lead a donkey to water, but ya' can't keep him from kicking you while trying to get him to drink...or something like that. Anyway, it works both ways.

All said and done, we know that there is no such thing as a perfect translation, yet God prefers to use imperfect and inadequate persons, places, and things to His own honor, glory, and praise.


Grace and Shalom in Maschiach Yeshua Ha' Melki Olam,

Timothy David Osbourne



p.s. In the immortal words of John Michael Osbourne, "Of all the things I've lost in life, i miss my mind the most."

[BibleScribe]

Hi Timmy,

First of all, thank you for your more than generous contribution to the discussion!

BibleScribe,

This was swiftly done, so if Gk. methods of spelling and grammar are not familiar, and you think there may be an error, please check elsewhere first, as:
...


Daniel 9:2
και-2532 εδωκα-1352 το-3588 προσωπον-4383 μου-1473 προς-4314 κυριον-2962 τον-3588 θεον-2316 του-5120 εκζητησαι-1567 προσευχην-4335 και-2532 δεησεις-1162 εν-1722 νηστειαις-3521 και-2532 σακκω-4526 και-2532 σποδω-4700


I Kings 3:
9
και-2532 ηρεσεν-700 ενωπιον-1799 κυριου-2962 οτι-3754 ητησατο-154 σαλωμων-[N-PRI] το-3588 -3588 ρημα-4487 τουτο-3788
10
και-2532 ειπεν-[V-AAI-3S] κυριος-2962 προς-4314 αυτον-846 ανθ-473 ων-3739 ητησω-154 παρ-3844 εμου-1473 το-3588 ρημα-4488 τουτο-3778 και-2532 ουκ-3364 ητησω-154 σαυτω-4572 ημερας-2250 πολλας-4183 και-2532 ουκ-3364 ητησω-154 πλουτον-4149 ουδε-3761 ητησω-154 ψυχας-5590 εχθρων-2190 σου-4771 αλλ-235 ητησω-154 σαυτω-4572 συνεσιν-4907 του-5120 εισακουειν-1522 κριμα-2917
11
ιδου-2400 πεποιηκα-4160 κατα-2596 το-3588 ρημα-4487 σου-4771 ιδου-2400 δεδωκα-1325 σοι-4771 καρδιαν-2588 φρονιμην-5429 και-2532 σοφην-4680 ως-3739 συ-4771 ου-3364 γεγονεν-1096 εμπροσθεν-1715 σου-4771 και-2532 μετα-3326 σε-4571 ουκ-3378 αναστησεται-450 ομοιος-3664 σοι-4671
12
και-2532 α-1 ουκ-3378 ητησω-1545 δεδωκα-1325 σοι-4671 και-2532 πλουτον-4149 και-2532 δοξαν-1391 ως-3739 ου-3756 γεγονεν-1096 ανηρ-435 ομοιος-3664 σοι-4671 εν-1722 βασιλευσιν-935
13
και-2532 εαν-1437 πορευθης-4198 εν-1722 τη-3588 οδω-3588 μου-1473 φυλασσειν-4198 τας-3588 εντολας-1785 μου-1473 και-2532 τα-3588 προσταγματα-[N-APN] μου-1473 ως-3739 επορευθη-4198 δαυιδ-[N-PRI] ο-3588 πατηρ-3962 σου-4771 και-2532 πληθυνω-4129 τας-3588 ημερας-2250 σου-4771

My premise is that the Masoretic text represents the original words penned by the ancients, and the Septuigant is only a translation. As such one should be able to validate these two texts against the fulfillments to either prove or disprove the conciseness of that prophecy. And toward this evaluation, I've chosen the Daniel 9:2 "perceived in the words" passage, where the word "perceived" is interpreted as though it were the simple shama understanding typical of reading the book of Jeremiah. However, the literal text is NOT the simple shama, but rather biyn which is a much more complex term. So if the proper fulfillment is not simply reading the book of Jeremiah, then is there another book which is referenced? So where we can identify a text which requires a Solomon level of perception, we can evaluate the Septuigant to see if it has a similar connotation.


First I'd like to compare the, the Daniel 9:2 "perceived", (Masoretic biyn), as translated by the Septuigant, (please correct me if I am wrong), ekzēteō, εκζητησαι-G1567:


ekzēteō, εκζητησαι-G1567

1) to seek out, search for
2) to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
3) to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
4) to demand back, require


Secondly, I'd like to compare this Daniel 9 "perceived" with the 1 Kings 3 (Masoretic shama corollary for which Solomon asked GOD), which the Septuagint cites as, (please correct me if I am wrong), the Greek ophthalmos, τουτο-G3788:


ophthalmos, τουτο-G3788

1) the eye
2) metaph. the eyes of the mind, the faculty of knowing


And thirdly I'd like to compare the Daniel 9:2 "perceived" (Masoretic biyn) with the 1 Kings 3 biyn, which the Septuagint provides, (please correct me if I am wrong), doxa, δοξαν-G1391:


doxa, δοξαν-G1391

1) opinion, judgment, view
2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone

a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory

3) splendour, brightness

a) of the moon, sun, stars
b) magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
c) majesty

1) a thing belonging to God
a) the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity

2) a thing belonging to Christ
a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah
b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty

3) of the angels
a) as apparent in their exterior brightness

4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state
a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth
b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven

The Masoretic presents the 1 Kings 3:9 shama per the following:

shama, שָׁמַע, H8085

1) to hear, listen to, obey

a) (Qal)

1) to hear (perceive by ear)
2) to hear of or concerning
3) to hear (have power to hear)
4) to hear with attention or interest, listen to
5) to understand (language)
6) to hear (of judicial cases)
7) to listen, give heed

a) to consent, agree
b) to grant request

8) to listen to, yield to
9) to obey, be obedient

b) (Niphal)

1) to be heard (of voice or sound)
2) to be heard of
3) to be regarded, be obeyed

c) (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon
d) (Hiphil)

1) to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound
2) to sound aloud (musical term)
3) to make proclamation, summon
4) to cause to be heard

Both the 1 Kings 3:12 and Daniel 9:2 biyn is presented as:

biyn, בִּין, H995

1) to discern, understand, consider

a) (Qal)

1) to perceive, discern
2) to understand, know (with the mind)
3) to observe, mark, give heed to, distinguish, consider
4) to have discernment, insight, understanding

b) (Niphal) to be discerning, intelligent, discreet, have understanding
c) (Hiphil)

1) to understand
2) to cause to understand, give understanding, teach

d) (Hithpolel) to show oneself discerning or attentive, consider diligently
e) (Polel) to teach, instruct

2) (TWOT) prudent, regard


CONCLUSION

According to the two texts, I would propose that not only are the Greek words less concise within the context of the three passages, I would also suggest that the ekzēteō, εκζητησαι-G1567 does not seem to imply a Solomon level of searching the Books (the Psalms) to discover a hidden interpretation as noted by Edward Young. He correctly stated that the inference of the "going forth of the word" was NOT a dictate by a Persian King, but rather a dictate directly from GOD. As such one could find that "word" in Psalms 24.



Timmy, if you don't mind I'd like to leave Daniel 9:25-26 for another day. However, I would like to observe that your niece inherited some of her brilliance from her uncle!

And as one final note, if you were to consider the Daniel 1:21/10:1 ~riddle~, the answer is in the text:

Daniel 1:21
21 And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.

Daniel 10:1
1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, ...


In the first Chapter, Cyrus was King over both the Persians and the Babylonians. In the tenth Chapter, Cyrus is only King of the Persians. Thus Daniel 6 is a Babylonian event in which the last Babylonian King (Darius) is fearful of losing his only connection to the Living GOD due to the treachery of the nobles (who had already assassinated Belshazzar). And for that evidence, please consider the last verse of this Chapter, which defines ONLY Cyrus as a Persian:

Daniel 6
28 So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.


And to further validate this premise, please consider the eleventh Chapter in which a victorious conqueror does not need strengthening, but the soon to be vanquished DOES:

Daniel 11
1Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.


Thus the sequence of history in which Chapter 10 is pre "first year of king Cyrus".


Many Blessings to You and Yours,
BibleScribe

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

So when we consider this text we find arguments between different versions of how these TWO time durations are presented:

Jewish Publication Society (JPS)
25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; ...

ESV
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. ...

And of course there are a few other Versions which present TWO anointed ones, but the predominant presentation only allows ONE anointed one:

Septuagint
25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him:

KJV
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

But Newton observed that there is no society which sums numbers in such fashion that for example a hammer might cost $3 + $18 + tax:

Newton wrote:

We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation.

So I would tend to believe Newton, the angel, and modern fulfilled history for verse 25 and portions of verses 26-27, with portions of verses 26-27 is still pending fulfillment. However, some would maintain the KVJ ~seven and sixty-two~ presentation, for which I would simply ask for ANY precedent either in Scripture or world history where two numbers were summed in such fashion (as noted per Newton).


And of course there are other points which the Mesoretic and Septuagint disagree.

BibleScribe

Hello Bible Scribe; ARE YOU 'biblewriter' on another forum.

It is my understanding that there was a time of trouble prophesied which purposed the seperation of 7 wks [49 yrs] and the following period of building ( 62 wks). There was an opposition from the surrounding peoples who feared the Jews re-inhabitation of the land, saying that they would never pay taxes to the other nations. There was a short stoppage decreed in the rebuilding which I think Nehemiah ignored.

This 'trouble' is recorded in Nehemiah and perhaps Ezra.

I think your missing (as perhaps Newton did also) the element of Hebrew Parrallelism inbedded in the poetry. Please click on the link for more information.

The fact of this being Poetry can be seen in the NKJV which seperates it as Poetry. The poetry as well as the pause in building is it's own precedent for the division of the 69 weeks.

Thus the two lines of the end of vs 25 give descriptive information on what is to happen over the whole 7 plus 62 weeks. The beginning of vs 26 continues the additional information.

The Seventy-Weeks Prophecy

20 Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God, 21 yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, 'O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:

24 'Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[b] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 'Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

The street[c] shall be built again, and the wall,[d]
Even in troublesome times.

The street and the wall were to be built [even in troublesome times] during the combination of 7 and 62 weeks.

[Sometime] After the second group of time [the 62 weeks] the Messiah would be cut off....

Vs 27 then adds that a covenant [the covenant promised to Abraham and Even Eve"; the everlasting covenant of the Creator] would be confirmed with "many" during the last week. There is a good study of how the apostles use the word "many" several times when referring to those believing on these supernatural events in their writings. [acts 4:4; Heb 2:10,9:28 in particular] VS 27 adds that this cutting off would be in the midst of that final week; and that his cutting off [death inflicted] would be the CAUSE of the ceasing of the sacrifice and offering. There is no more need for it.

vs 27 is a second stanza in the hebrew poetery directly connected to the introduction of vs 26.

26 'And after the sixty-two weeks

A). Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 B). And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.'

vs 27 is a second stanza in the hebrew poetery directly after the introduction of vs 26.

Here is how it reads putting vs 27's stanza ahead of vs 26's. These are not only permissible; but expected using the rules of Hebrew Poetry.

"After 62 weeks [actually after the 69 wks] He (Messiah) will confirm the covenant with Many for the final week; 7 yrs. {remember the details of the covenant would include an indwelling aspect as recorded in Deut 30:5-15 and EZ 36:18-26.}; But in the midst of the week the messiah would be cut off, which would be the cause of the later ending of the sacrifice and oblation.

After 483 yrs Messiah will confirm, firm up, establish, 'the covenant' with many for 7 yrs. [His teaching beginning at his baptism through the indwelt apostles for 3 1/2 yrs in Jerusalem as part of the 70 wks or 490 yrs] But in the midst of the final week, he {messiah} would be cut short; not for himself and this would CAUSE [Hiphil verb tense] the effect of the end of the sacrifice and oblation.

The rest of the clauses refer to the happenings at the end of Jesus 70 yrs lifespan, [His 'year of the Lord' in Is 61] the events of 67-73 AD and the desolation's and floods via the Roman army and Titus. The important thing to note is that "the covenant" is the positive covenant of the Creator promised from Eden to reverse the effects of the failure in the Garden by removing sin via knowledge of God through Christ.

Here is a good breakdown of Dan 9 from a very similar perspective.

While were On Daniel chapter 9, Take note of vs 11-15

Please answer the question as to where the curse of the law of Moses is recorded and to what it was referring to and involved. Notice also how he refers to this group of people and when they began. The mosaic covenant didn't begin with Abraham but with Moses.

11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

13 'As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

The curse of the law of Moses is in Deut 29 and it's confession required in chapter 30. There would be a return to the land promised after the confession of the curse which would be followed by a circumcision and indwelling of the heart with God's spirit [THE NEW COVANENT THROUGH JESUS] ... and then [or subsequently] the 'latter days', 'end' and 'latter end' of the mosaic covenant and God's administration of it's nation. [Deut chapter 32; and 31;29] This added detail of the days after the return to the land up to the latter days of that covenant is what the angel is giving to Daniel.

[BibleScribe]

Hi EndtimesDeut32/70AD,

First of all, I'm not sure that anything I have to offer can be received under a ~preterist~ doctrine. However, I will provide a response:

Hello Bible Scribe; ARE YOU 'biblewriter' on another forum.

That must be another.

It is my understanding that there was a time of trouble prophesied which purposed the seperation of 7 wks [49 yrs] and the following period of building ( 62 wks).

You err on multiple counts.

1. The durations are not "weeks". If this were the case, then the AUTHOR would have used the concise Feminine text. Instead the inconcise Masculine text was used. So where we do know the 70 ≠ 490, it takes additional evaluation to determine the actual duration.

2. There is a "anointed one" (small "a") after the seven, and a second "anointed one (small "a") after the sixty-two.

3. Neither "anointed one" is prophetic for Jesus.

Of course there are additional points which can be presented.



BibleScribe

[BibleScribe]

Hi EndtimesDeut32/70AD,

1. The durations are not "weeks". If this were the case, then the AUTHOR would have used the concise Feminine text. Instead the inconcise Masculine text was used. So where we do know the 70 ≠ 490, it takes additional evaluation to determine the actual duration.

One of the interesting aspects of Scripture is the succinctness of the text. (Please note that the Septuagint text as cited by "Timmy" in Post #81 is cited as verse 25, but appears to be present the verse 26 text, noted as follows. Thus I cannot offer a Septuagint comparison.)

Compare the cited Septuagint ~verse 25~ to the verse 26 language:

Septuagint 9:25
και-2532 (and) μετα-3326 (with) τας-3588 (which) εβδομαδας-[V-FPI-3S] (?) τας-3588 (which) εξηκοντα-1835 (sixty) δυο-1417 (two) εξολεθρευθησεται-[V-FPI-3S] (?) χρισμα-2917 (judgment) και-2532 (and) κριμα-2917 (judgment) ουκ-3378 (not) εστιν-2076 (is) εν-1722 (in) αυτω-846 (him) και-2532 (and) την-3588 (which) πολιν και-2532 (and) το-3588 (which) αγιον-39 (sanctuary) διαφθερει-1311 (destroy) συν-4862 (with) τω-3588 (which) ηγουμενω-2233 (rule) τω-3588 (which) ερχομενω-2064 (to appear) και-2532 (and) εκκοπησονται-[V-FMI-3P] (?) εν-1722 (in) κατακλυσμω-2627 (flood) και-2532 (and) εως-2193 (until) τελους-5056 (end) πολεμου-4171 (war) συντετμημενου-4932 (short) ταξει-5010 (order) αφανισμοις-854 (destruction)

Daniel 9:26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.



So for now, all I can suggest is that any perspective from the Septuagint is unavailable. However, I will provide that the Masoretic text "weeks"/"week" as shibiym/shabuwa, (plural/singular respectively), which according to Edward Young is NOT written in the usual concise Feminine text, but in the unusual inconcise Masculine text.

Thus although most interpretations present a value of ~ seventy sevens = 490 years, -- the inconcise Masculine text actually presents: NOT 490 years. (Please note that the concept is analogous to ~slang~ where someone is described a "hot" or something is described as "cool". These terms reflect a concept which is independent of a thermal gradient.

Where some might be stumped as to a solution, Daniel 9:2 says the interpretation is found in the "books" of the Bible. Thus one could consider using the Prophetic Psalms as the 19th Book, Chapter for year, such that Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948, -- the international recognition of Israel. And so the TRUE interpretation for the seventy ~weeks~ is validated by this book.


BibleScribe

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hi EndtimesDeut32/70AD,

First of all, I'm not sure that anything I have to offer can be received under a ~preterist~ doctrine. However, I will provide a response:

I believe that from the evidence of your perspective of Daniel 9 you may be correct. Likewise, the fulfilled perspectives can seldom be recieved by the dogmatic futurist and they will seldom be even open to hearing or even attempting to understand and consider the fulfilled perspective .


Here is the link to the Septuigent for your convenience and information.

That must be another.

Yes, I believe that it is.

You err on multiple counts.

1. The durations are not "weeks". If this were the case, then the AUTHOR would have used the concise Feminine text. Instead the inconcise Masculine text was used. So where we do know the 70 ≠ 490, it takes additional evaluation to determine the actual duration.

Perhaps your focusing on my use of the word 'week's' as if I thought they were a period of seven days. That is not the intent. But are you saying that they are not period of 'sevens'... meaning seven years??

70 X 7 or 70 7's used to be 490 even in grade school. I wonder if Lamech in Genesis 4 or Jesus in Mattew envisioned some other number than 490 when they used 70 X 7 ??.

In vs 25 it is 70 7's that covers the time frame to accomplish the events in question [after the decree to return from babylon] and in vs 26 & 27 the 70 (7's) is 7 [7's]+ 62 [7's] + 1[7]

07
+62
+01
=70

2. There is a "anointed one" (small "a") after the seven, and a second "anointed one (small "a") after the sixty-two.
BibleScribe

If your perspective would be worth considering at all, I believe it would have been presented without the threescore and two weeks being included in the first stanza as shown below.

25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [not Jesus according to you] shall be seven weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah [your second Messiah, but still not Christ] be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

But it is not presented that way: the 62 (7's) are attatched to the 7 (7's) as the time factor until Messiah the Prince.

25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

From the aforementioned website.There is a 7-week [49 yr]period of time that covers the difficult years of getting the place rebuilt.
a. God divided this segment, and it covers Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Haggai, Zechariah.
b. There is no gap here at all, but the 8th week commences when the 7th concludes. Behold!
c. Chronologers can piece together the dates in the Bible to confirm 49 years of building.
d. The troublesome times of the rebuilding are well documented by these books.

Again; to overlay the beginnings of the two verses as permitted and instructed using Hebrew Parallelism we have:

After 69 yrs Messiah will confirm 'the covenant' with many for 7 yrs. [His teaching beginning at his baptism through the indwelt apostles 3 1/2 yrs in Jerusalem] But in the midst of the final week, he {messiah} would be cut short; not for himself and this would be the CAUSE [Hiphil verb tense] that would effect the end of the sacrifice and oblation.

3. Neither "anointed one" is prophetic for Jesus.

Jesus declared himself to be the "Messiah" or annointed one to the woman at the well. They [even the Samaratains] were being observatnt for him at this time due to these time prophecies from Daniel. Jesus would not have misled the woman who's reference to "messiah" was an obvious association to this prophecy in Daniel. There is no other place where the term 'messiah' or annointed one is mentioned in the OT where the woman could have referenced her comment from.

Messias was also the 'prophet' of Deut 18 who would bring words of life in contrast with the words of the administration of death of the mosaic covenant. Jesus affirmed that He was the one of whom Moses spoke in Deut 18. Peter affirmed in Act 3 that the wrath was coming upon those of that generation who would not hear that prophet.

I believe that before further interaction and time consumption you need to re-read and interact/respond with what has already been posted and answer the question that Edward Goodie has asked but which goes unanswered by you.

Where is the end of human history or the 'end of the world' prophesied in the OT ?

It's already been presented to you in the last post by me in this thread that these prophecies in Daniel refer to the time between the curse of the law and the end of the mosaic covenant age and that Daniel was offering his prayer in chapter 9 in awareness that they had experienced the curse of the law of Moses in the experience of the babylonian captivity.

11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

13 'As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

This confession of the curse of the law of Moses was prophesied in Deut 30 to be followed by the return to the land, the coming of the circumcision of the heart [through the approving incarnation and intervention of God] and the latter end, and "time of the end" of the mosaic covenant and subsequent wrath upon those who disbelieved in that coming and persecuted those who did. Deut 18. Daniel affirms that this 'curse of the law of Moses' occurred during the babylinian captivity NOT the so called dispersion after the Roman desolation. This end of the mosaic covenant conditional nation was prophesied in the very giving of the covenant by Moses and especially in chapter 32. It is also the judgment against the contitional, corporal ways of seeking appeasemet and blessing of God through law and religion.

Again;
before continuing, please answer the question posed to you as to where the 'end of the world'; 'end of human history' is taught and prophesied in the OT. If you maintain that Daniel is one source, then in order to continue discussion and ingenuous honest interaction you must approach and interact with the arguments against your assertions. Namely, the argument that Daniel was being given additional details of the time between the return from the babylonian captivity and the coming of the new prophet; the Messiah; and of the time till the end of the 'mosaic 'old' conditional, national covenant, and the fulfilled establishment of the Everlasting Covt; NOT the end of human history.

Deuteronomy 29 and 30:1-4 is the context of his prayer in chapter 9.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus everyone.

I’ve discussed the Greek Septuagint in the past, and have concluded that the modern English Bibles are still relying on a myth, that God’s Old Testament as passed down by Moses, is only to be trusted at the hands of the Hebrews. Unfortunately, this has not been the case at all, in my opinion, which I will try to prove to be factually based.

The Old Testament was corrupted after the 2nd century by a group of Jews known as the Masorite’s; hence the name 'Masoretic Text'. The Early Church spoke and wrote Greek, and thus the Greek Septuagint has been the official Old Testament of the Churches all throughout Israel. If you’ve ever noticed, there are Old Testament quotations in the New Testament that do not have support from the Masoretic Text. It is thus my intension to discuss these differences with everyone.
Joe

If the Masoretic was translated to the latin vulgate and this became the foundation for the catholic [state approved] church in the 5th century, [and many subsequent churches] and the Masoretic was altered by the hellenist jews likely to the favor of their goals, then has there been a hidden agenda of the jews within some aspects of the 'church' ever since Constantine and even others before them ???.

Wouldn't the remaining Jews from the desolation have been so peeved that the living God actually opposed, halted and destroyed their plans of world dominion through corporal oppressive law [even bringing calamaties of nature against them] that they re-formulated and re-focused those plans and goals [now including some aspects of the church] to attempt to rebel against and take retribution against the good and pervect Freeing will of the Creator, Living God in the distant future .... which is now present??

I'm thinking of how they altered dates which would align with and promote their chilaist thoughts. By re-dating the Hebrew-masoretic text to make the time period of @2000 AD appear to be somewhere in the 6000 AD range, they would have time to fabricate the teachings of the restoration of Israel and law to appear to be the favor of God.

They may have been part of the destruction of the early non-futurist documents and of the preserving or altering of Ireneous' obviously futurist leaning documents and codified interpretations. By promoting the altered masoretic over the Sept, they would hide the facts that even the ECF's in their remaining chilaist thoughts would have viewed the 5th century AD as the end of the 6th millenium.

And I'm thinking of how the dispensational futurists perspectives have some of their foundations in Ireneous and how those perspectives also favor a restoration of Israel. And I'm thinking of how the dispy/futurists scheme seems to have been promoted by the zionists themselves.

And I'm thinking of how some elements of the institutional church's teaching of the new covenant appear to take the encouraging and instructional words of the apostles letters [to their original audience] and codify them into a false new conditional law for a 'corporal' 'church'.

[BibleScribe]

To take one point at at time, please consider the following:

1. The durations are not "weeks". If this were the case, then the AUTHOR would have used the concise Feminine text. Instead the inconcise Masculine text was used. So where we do know the 70 ≠ 490, it takes additional evaluation to determine the actual duration.

Perhaps your focusing on my use of the word 'week's' as if I thought they were a period of seven days. That is not the intent. But are you saying that they are not period of 'sevens'... meaning seven years??

70 X 7 or 70 7's used to be 490 even in grade school. I wonder if Lamech in Genesis 4 or Jesus in Mattew envisioned some other number than 490 when they used 70 X 7 ??.

In vs 25 it is 70 7's that covers the time frame to accomplish the events in question [after the decree to return from babylon] and in vs 26 & 27 the 70 (7's) is 7 [7's]+ 62 [7's] + 1[7]

07
+62
+01
=70

You have failed to address the distinction between the concise text (as you interpreted) versus the inconcise text (as God provided). Did you wish to revise the text to suit your interpretation?



... I will provide that the Masoretic text "weeks"/"week" as shibiym/shabuwa, (plural/singular respectively), which according to Edward Young is NOT written in the usual concise Feminine text, but in the unusual inconcise Masculine text.

Thus although most interpretations present a value of ~ seventy sevens = 490 years, -- the inconcise Masculine text actually presents: NOT 490 years. (Please note that the concept is analogous to ~slang~ where someone is described a "hot" or something is described as "cool". These terms reflect a concept which is independent of a thermal gradient.

Where some might be stumped as to a solution, Daniel 9:2 says the interpretation is found in the "books" of the Bible. Thus one could consider using the Prophetic Psalms as the 19th Book, Chapter for year, such that Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948, -- the international recognition of Israel. And so the TRUE interpretation for the seventy ~weeks~ is validated by this book.



BibleScribe

[BibleScribe]

If ... and ..., then has there been ... within ... ever since ... and even others ... ???.

Wouldn't ...

I'm thinking ...

They may have been ...

And I'm thinking ...

And I'm thinking ...

Do you think there's more to history than supposition, conjecture, and imagination?

Nah, -- sorry for interrupting your tangent.


BibleScribe

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Do you think there's more to history than supposition, conjecture, and imagination?

Nah, -- sorry for interrupting your tangent.


BibleScribe

It was in reply to the OP and to the poster.

Freedom to theorize, think, contemplate and share those thoughts are elements of conversational discussion.

But your critical tone is noted.