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  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Thanks! Very helpful.

    I think the additional chapters obviously don't fit with the character of the rest of the book. They have flavor of a "fairy tale." I found a similar discrepancy with the chapter added to the book of Esther in the LXX. After nine chapters in the MT without a single reference to God, the tenth chapter in the LXX says "God did it!" over and over again. It seems obvious to me that it was added by someone who was disturbed by the abscence of God in the MT. The illegitimacy of the addition is made extremely obvious when the integration of Esther with the meaning of the 17th Hebrew letter and its position on the Bible Wheel is examined. I explain this in my article Apocryphal Additions to Esther Refuted.
    Most interesting! -- I appreciate your candidness!



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I own Newton's commentary on Daniel and am familiar with his comment, but I don't personally find it compelling. Why can't the two durations of time be sequential so they add to 69?
    Newton wrote:

    We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Danielís meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation.


    As such we should anticipate that there's ONE anointed one after the seven, and a SECOND anointed one after the sixty-two:

    25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.
    26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more;




    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I don't understand why you are talking about "English" translations. They are utterly irrelevant for any serious study of the Bible.
    I believe there is a direct analogy between how the Hebrew (Masoretic) OT was translated into Greek (Septuagint), and even English (King James). And as you correctly observe, any serious student should use the original text, and NOT rely on either a Greek or English translation, except for the the ease of understanding a text in our own language, and own sentence structures.

    But to make any determination as to the proposed veracity of the Masoretic Text vesus the Septuagint (which some present as the most reliable), one must investigate the historical evidence (including the Qumran).



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    It still feels like I haven't gotten a clear answer to my question about the quoting of the LXX in the Greek NT. Does that not imply that the LXX was correct in those cases? And if so, then in as much as the LXX differs from the MT in those cases, does it not also imply an error in the MT?
    I would propose that whether quotes are attributed in Jesus' time, or in our pulpits today, the texts referenced are in the current language of the citizens. Does this suggest that the Septuigant was the "original" because Jesus cited the Septuagint, or that the King James is the "original" because our pastors cite the King James? God forbid. It's simply a text in the language which people understand.

    However, I would propose that if the the MT or the Septuagint is the better text, that GOD would make a way for us to validate that premise, whether by the Qumran, a technical evaluation of the Text, incongruities in the presentation style, etc. And as evidence by what I believe to be an impartial source, (the Apologetics Press), it would seem that we have passed at least one hurdle toward this determination.



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Great chatting!
    Ram, (Richard), it's a real pleasure, and thanks again for your insight to the Book of Esther. -- I'll read it in light of what you've explained!



    BibleScribe
    Last edited by BibleScribe; 02-17-2012 at 06:42 PM.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by BibleScribe View Post
    Newton wrote:

    We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Danielís meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation.


    As such we should anticipate that there's ONE anointed one after the seven, and a SECOND anointed one after the sixty-two:

    25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.
    26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more;


    BibleScribe
    I dont' want to jump in here with commentary between you and Richard, but could you clarify what your perspective of what the prophecy of Dan 9 is saying here?

    Are you declaring this statement?

    As such we should anticipate that there's ONE anointed one after the seven, and a SECOND anointed one after the sixty-two:
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by BibleScribe View Post
    Most interesting! -- I appreciate your candidness!
    My pleasure!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleScribe View Post
    Newton wrote:

    We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Danielís meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation.


    As such we should anticipate that there's ONE anointed one after the seven, and a SECOND anointed one after the sixty-two:

    25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.
    26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more;
    Your translation contains a word that is not in the Hebrew text. There is no "for" (which would be represented by a lamed prefix) preceding "three score and two weeks." The actual text simply states this:

    ... unto an anointed, a prince, seven sevens and sixty two sevens, ...

    Why is it split up that way? No one knows.

    It would be great if you could briefly explain (in just a few sentences) who you think the two anointed ones are and what are the time periods to which the numbers refer.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post

    I dont' want to jump in here with commentary between you and Richard, but could you clarify what your perspective of what the prophecy of Dan 9 is saying here?

    Are you declaring this statement?

    Hi EndtimesDeut32/70AD,

    I'm glad you joined the discussion!


    As I've already provided, there are several aspects to assessing the veracity of a given text (i.e., Masoretic vs Septuagint). One is history, (which I believe the Apologetics Press objectively addresses), another might be the veracity of language conventions typical of Daniel's weeks in Chapter 9. And where I've been unsuccessful in assessing the Septuagint Greek script, we do have significant access to the Masoretic Hebrew script. but in either case the English translations both agree that Daniel 9 provides TWO time durations, -- a "seven" and a "sixty-two".

    So when we consider this text we find arguments between different versions of how these TWO time durations are presented:


    Jewish Publication Society (JPS)
    25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.
    26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; ...

    ESV
    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. ...


    And of course there are a few other Versions which present TWO anointed ones, but the predominant presentation only allows ONE anointed one:


    Septuagint
    25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
    26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him:

    KJV
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:


    But Newton observed that there is no society which sums numbers in such fashion that for example a hammer might cost $3 + $18 + tax:

    Newton wrote:

    We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Danielís meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation.


    So now the conundrum. Is the popular view correct and there is an ancient fulfillment? To which some would agree, but NOT find ANY consensus:


    Per Montgomery:
    The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... "

    John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217


    Or there is a modern fulfillment with TWO anointed ones (ONE after the "seven" and a SECOND after the "sixty-two") which the angel specifies:


    Daniel 12
    4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
    ...
    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.



    So I would tend to believe Newton, the angel, and modern fulfilled history for verse 25 and portions of verses 26-27, with portions of verses 26-27 is still pending fulfillment. However, some would maintain the KVJ ~seven and sixty-two~ presentation, for which I would simply ask for ANY precedent either in Scripture or world history where two numbers were summed in such fashion (as noted per Newton).


    And of course there are other points which the Mesoretic and Septuagint disagree.

    BibleScribe

  5. #75
    Hi Ram, (Richard),

    Thanks for your note back!

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Your translation contains a word that is not in the Hebrew text. There is no "for" (which would be represented by a lamed prefix) preceding "three score and two weeks."
    I would propose that Hebrew sentence structure is different than English sentence structure. Thus the ~clarification~ of these two thoughts.



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    ... unto an anointed, a prince, seven sevens and sixty two sevens, ...

    Why is it split up that way? No one knows.
    I would propose the text is not "split up", but rather ~combined~ in a fashion for which there is absolutely no Scriptural or Societal precedent. As such, one MUST consider whether the translators are taking liberties to present that which isn't to achieve an agenda which it shouldn't.



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    It would be great if you could briefly explain (in just a few sentences) who you think the two anointed ones are and what are the time periods to which the numbers refer.
    If one were to simply jump to the conclusion, the basis would be lost. However, please once again allow me to provide a beyond-the-horizon advisory, in which the Book of Psalms confirms Daniel's seventy "weeks", and of course which History substantiates.


    So for now, could I simply request that if anyone has a precedent (either in Scripture or History) where a ~hammer~ is priced at $3 + $18 + tax, that this be cited?



    BibleScribe

  6. #76
    To All,

    As I've already defined, I've been unable to obtain the Septuagint Greek text for the Book of Daniel. So where it would be interesting to compare texts, -- similar as to how the KJV fails to capture the "do you love me" exchange between Jesus and Peter, for which the original text uses "agape" and "philo", but the KJV English translation simply uses "love".

    Thus, lacking that comparative Septuagint text, I can only present the Masoretic analysis per the following:


    Daniel 9:2
    2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.


    The text of interest is the word "perceived", for which as explained above using the "agape"/"philo" example, could have used the words "shama" or "biyn". And where in 1 Kings 3, when Solomon was asked what GOD could give him, he asked for shama so that he could understand theneeds of the people. (Please note that this is a simple understanding, typical of reading the Book of Jeremiah, Chapter 25.) But as that discussion continued, GOD said HE would grant what Soloman asked, -- and HE would give him such biyn that none before him or after him should have such biyn.


    So although one could analyze why GOD did NOT grant what he asked, (shama), but gave him that which he DIDN'T ask (biyn), the real point is that in Daniel 9:2, the text used was not "shama", which would have implied that Daniel simply read the 25th Chapter of Jeremiah, but instead used the biyn Solomon wisdom level of perceiving in the "books" of the O.T. some understanding of the seventy "years". Thus if one were to follow this lead, and find a book with seventy Chapters, or Verses, or some other correlation, one might employ the same biyn which Daniel used.


    As such, we could consider the "Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms" premise, as proposed by J.R. Church, and possibly search for the "going forth of the word to establish and rebuild Jerusalem", which Edward Young acknowledged was NOT a dictate from a man (i.e., Persian king), but rather had the full inference of a dictate directly from GOD, -- thereby Scripture.


    And so if we consider the 24th Chapter of Psalms, (Book 19, Chapter 24, for the year 1924), we might arrive to that GOD ordained dictate:

    Psalms 24
    24 The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof,[a]
    the world and those who dwell therein,
    2 for he has founded it upon the seas
    and established it upon the rivers.

    3 Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord?
    And who shall stand in his holy place?
    4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
    who does not lift up his soul to what is false
    and does not swear deceitfully.
    5 He will receive blessing from the Lord
    and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
    6 Such is the generation of those who seek him,
    who seek the face of the God of Jacob.[b] Selah

    7 Lift up your heads, O gates!
    And be lifted up, O ancient doors,
    that the King of glory may come in.
    8 Who is this King of glory?
    The Lord, strong and mighty,
    the Lord, mighty in battle!
    9 Lift up your heads, O gates!
    And lift them up, O ancient doors,
    that the King of glory may come in.
    10 Who is this King of glory?
    The Lord of hosts,
    he is the King of glory! Selah


    So per the above, please note the hierarchy of how GOD declares who HE is, then calls a peoples, and finally declares that the ANCIENT gates be restored. And if this were simply an historical passage, the gates would be MODERN, but if an end-time prophecy, the gates are ANCIENT.


    But what good is a prophecy, without a fulfillment?


    As early as the 1880ís European and Arabian Jews realized the vision of emigrating to Palestine. By the year 1924 there had been three Ďaliyaísí, or immigration waves. These first three waves provided a population base of 120,000 settlers. The fourth wave, from 1924 to 1929, increased this populous by over 57% to 186,000. This net population total is even more impressive when considering that approximately 33% of the arriving Jews re-emigrated. By 1948 the Jewish population measured at 650,000.

    Amos Elon, Israelis Founders and Sons, Rinehart and Winston, NY, 1971, p. 135





    For the next segment, I would like to provide an analysis of the word "weeks" (shibiym) in the Masculine Gender plural and (shabuwa) Masculine Gender singular.

    BibleScribe

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by BibleScribe View Post
    To All,

    As I've already defined, I've been unable to obtain the Septuagint Greek text for the Book of Daniel. So where it would be interesting to compare texts, -- similar as to how the KJV fails to capture the "do you love me" exchange between Jesus and Peter, for which the original text uses "agape" and "philo", but the KJV English translation simply uses "love".

    Thus, lacking that comparative Septuagint text...
    Hi BibleScribe

    Lack no more.

    There really is not time presently to enter any of these discussions in the Eschatology portico here at the B.W.V.F.A.(t.m.), and thoroughly shredding many conclusions already drawn may not be appreciated. Still, there is hardly anything more amusing than sitting and watching threads like this develop when time is available. (This has been attempted in the past, yet time for actual study questioning compared to the tendency for many here to just cut and paste their posts together without self-examination or questioning the texts they are promoting really deserves no further comment.)

    Anyway, here is Daniel 9 from the LXX, so that mayhaps some self-correctings to previous drawn conclusions might come about by participants. As well, whether or not this is done, you can continue to follow in your (pre?)dialectics (pre?)supposed:

    Daniel 9
    1 εν ετει ενι της βασιλειας αυτου εγω δανιηλ συνηκα εν ταις βυβλοις τον αριθμον των ετων ος εγενηθη λογος κυριου προς ιερεμιαν τον προφητην εις συμπληρωσιν ερημωσεως ιερουσαλημ εβδομηκοντα ετη 2 και εδωκα το προσωπον μου προς κυριον τον θεον του εκζητησαι προσευχην και δεησεις εν νηστειαις και σακκω και σποδω 3 και προσηυξαμην προς κυριον τον θεον μου και εξωμολογησαμην και ειπα κυριε ο θεος ο μεγας και θαυμαστος ο φυλασσων την διαθηκην σου και το ελεος τοις αγαπωσιν σε και τοις φυλασσουσιν τας εντολας σου 4 ημαρτομεν ηδικησαμεν ηνομησαμεν και απεστημεν και εξεκλιναμεν απο των εντολων σου και απο των κριματων σου 5 και ουκ εισηκουσαμεν των δουλων σου των προφητων οι ελαλουν εν τω ονοματι σου προς τους βασιλεις ημων και αρχοντας ημων και πατερας ημων και προς παντα τον λαον της γης 6 σοι κυριε η δικαιοσυνη και ημιν η αισχυνη του προσωπου ως η ημερα αυτη ανδρι ιουδα και τοις ενοικουσιν εν ιερουσαλημ και παντι ισραηλ τοις εγγυς και τοις μακραν εν παση τη γη ου διεσπειρας αυτους εκει εν αθεσια αυτων η ηθετησαν εν σοι 7 κυριε ημιν η αισχυνη του προσωπου και τοις βασιλευσιν ημων και τοις αρχουσιν ημων και τοις πατρασιν ημων οιτινες ημαρτομεν σοι 8 τω κυριω θεω ημων οι οικτιρμοι και οι ιλασμοι οτι απεστημεν 9 και ουκ εισηκουσαμεν της φωνης κυριου του θεου ημων πορευεσθαι εν τοις νομοις αυτου οις εδωκεν κατα προσωπον ημων εν χερσιν των δουλων αυτου των προφητων 10 και πας ισραηλ παρεβησαν τον νομον σου και εξεκλιναν του μη ακουσαι της φωνης σου και επηλθεν εφ ημας η καταρα και ο ορκος ο γεγραμμενος εν νομω μωυσεως δουλου του θεου οτι ημαρτομεν αυτω 11 και εστησεν τους λογους αυτου ους ελαλησεν εφ ημας και επι τους κριτας ημων οι εκρινον ημας επαγαγειν εφ ημας κακα μεγαλα οια ου γεγονεν υποκατω παντος του ουρανου κατα τα γενομενα εν ιερουσαλημ 12 καθως γεγραπται εν τω νομω μωυση παντα τα κακα ταυτα ηλθεν εφ ημας και ουκ εδεηθημεν του προσωπου κυριου του θεου ημων αποστρεψαι απο των αδικιων ημων και του συνιεναι εν παση αληθεια σου 13 και εγρηγορησεν κυριος και επηγαγεν αυτα εφ ημας οτι δικαιος κυριος ο θεος ημων επι πασαν την ποιησιν αυτου ην εποιησεν και ουκ εισηκουσαμεν της φωνης αυτου 14 και νυν κυριε ο θεος ημων ος εξηγαγες τον λαον σου εκ γης αιγυπτου εν χειρι κραταια και εποιησας σεαυτω ονομα ως η ημερα αυτη ημαρτομεν ηνομησαμεν 15 κυριε εν παση ελεημοσυνη σου αποστραφητω δη ο θυμος σου και η οργη σου απο της πολεως σου ιερουσαλημ ορους αγιου σου οτι ημαρτομεν και εν ταις αδικιαις ημων και των πατερων ημων ιερουσαλημ και ο λαος σου εις ονειδισμον εγενετο εν πασιν τοις περικυκλω ημων 16 και νυν εισακουσον κυριε ο θεος ημων της προσευχης του δουλου σου και των δεησεων αυτου και επιφανον το προσωπον σου επι το αγιασμα σου το ερημον ενεκεν σου κυριε 17 κλινον ο θεος μου το ους σου και ακουσον ανοιξον τους οφθαλμους σου και ιδε τον αφανισμον ημων και της πολεως σου εφ ης επικεκληται το ονομα σου επ αυτης οτι ουκ επι ταις δικαιοσυναις ημων ημεις ριπτουμεν τον οικτιρμον ημων ενωπιον σου αλλ επι τους οικτιρμους σου τους πολλους 18 κυριε εισακουσον κυριε ιλασθητι κυριε προσχες και ποιησον μη χρονισης ενεκεν σου ο θεος μου οτι το ονομα σου επικεκληται επι την πολιν σου και επι τον λαον σου 19 και ετι εμου λαλουντος και προσευχομενου και εξαγορευοντος τας αμαρτιας μου και τας αμαρτιας του λαου μου ισραηλ και ριπτουντος τον ελεον μου εναντιον κυριου του θεου μου περι του ορους του αγιου του θεου μου 20 και ετι εμου λαλουντος εν τη προσευχη και ιδου ο ανηρ γαβριηλ ον ειδον εν τη ορασει εν τη αρχη πετομενος και ηψατο μου ωσει ωραν θυσιας εσπερινης 21 και συνετισεν με και ελαλησεν μετ εμου και ειπεν δανιηλ νυν εξηλθον συμβιβασαι σε συνεσιν 22 εν αρχη της δεησεως σου εξηλθεν λογος και εγω ηλθον του αναγγειλαι σοι οτι ανηρ επιθυμιων συ ει και εννοηθητι εν τω ρηματι και συνες εν τη οπτασια 23 εβδομηκοντα εβδομαδες συνετμηθησαν επι τον λαον σου και επι την πολιν την αγιαν σου του συντελεσθηναι αμαρτιαν και του σφραγισαι αμαρτιας και απαλειψαι τας ανομιας και του εξιλασασθαι αδικιας και του αγαγειν δικαιοσυνην αιωνιον και του σφραγισαι ορασιν και προφητην και του χρισαι αγιον αγιων 24 και γνωση και συνησεις απο εξοδου λογου του αποκριθηναι και του οικοδομησαι ιερουσαλημ εως χριστου ηγουμενου εβδομαδες επτα και εβδομαδες εξηκοντα δυο και επιστρεψει και οικοδομηθησεται πλατεια και τειχος και εκκενωθησονται οι καιροι 25 και μετα τας εβδομαδας τας εξηκοντα δυο εξολεθρευθησεται χρισμα και κριμα ουκ εστιν εν αυτω και την πολιν και το αγιον διαφθερει συν τω ηγουμενω τω ερχομενω και εκκοπησονται εν κατακλυσμω και εως τελους πολεμου συντετμημενου ταξει αφανισμοις 26 και δυναμωσει διαθηκην πολλοις εβδομας μια και εν τω ημισει της εβδομαδος αρθησεται μου θυσια και σπονδη και επι το ιερον βδελυγμα των ερημωσεων και εως συντελειας καιρου συντελεια δοθησεται επι την ερημωσιν 27 εν ετει τριτω κυρου βασιλεως περσων λογος απεκαλυφθη τω δανιηλ ου το ονομα επεκληθη βαλτασαρ και αληθινος ο λογος και δυναμις μεγαλη και συνεσις εδοθη αυτω εν τη οπτασια



    Daniel 9:2
    2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
    2 και εδωκα το προσωπον μου προς κυριον τον θεον του εκζητησαι προσευχην και δεησεις εν νηστειαις και σακκω και σποδω

    There! Compare!

    Also, was previously stated:
    But what good is a prophecy, without a fulfillment?
    By the above, understanding as to what the purpose of all prophecy actually is appears to be misunderstood. Eschatology is only a minimal fraction of what prophecy is truly all about.
    BETTER TO DEFINE PURPOSE AND MEANING OF SUBJECT STUDIED THAN TO FORGE ON IN THE WRONG DIRECTION ALTOGETHER.


    It is also suggested that either a better grip of the meaning of Hebrew words in context be obtained before conclusions are so swiftly drawn, or at least for benefit locate for yourself a few more comprehensive sources.

    If the shoe fits, wear it. In thy acharit, thou owest no explanations to anyone but Yah...what will stand up to His consuming fire? A word to the wise is sufficient.
    (Mk. 9.49; Lk. 3.17; Ja. 3.1-2; Heb. 9.27)


    Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders.


    Only hoping to help out,

    Barefoot Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-21-2012 at 01:31 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  8. #78
    Hi Timmy,
    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post

    Lack no more.
    My apologies for being inconcise, -- but is this available in an interlinear format, both for the Daniel 9:2 and 1 Kings 3:9-13?

    And if I might be so bold to ask, could you also provide the same for Daniel 9:25-26?



    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post

    BETTER TO DEFINE PURPOSE AND MEANING OF SUBJECT STUDIED THAN TO FORGE ON IN THE WRONG DIRECTION ALTOGETHER.

    Certainly many have their opinions as to this subject. However, I would observe that where so many profess knowledge, they are stymied at the first incongruity. Take for example the word "until":

    un∑til (n-tl)
    prep.
    1. Up to the time of: We danced until dawn.


    • Did they dance until midnight?
    • Did they dance until dawn?
    • Did they dance until noon?



    So if they stopped dancing at dawn, then why do these same linguistic conventions not apply to Daniel 1:21?


    21 Thus Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.


    To coin a phrase from "My Cousin Vinny", is this a magical "until"? Is this come from the same guy who sold Jack his "until" dictionary definition?



    And if Daniel DID continue until, AND ONLY UNTIL, the FIRST year of Cyrus, what was he doing in the THIRD year of Cyrus?

    Daniel 10:1
    1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a message was revealed to Daniel, ...





    Thanks,
    BibleScribe
    Last edited by BibleScribe; 02-21-2012 at 03:50 PM.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BibleScribe View Post
    Hi Timmy,


    My apologies for being inconcise, -- but is this available in an interlinear format, both for the Daniel 9:2 and 1 Kings 3:9-13?

    And if I might be so bold to ask, could you also provide the same for Daniel 9:25-26?
    Yes,
    but will be busy with family til late tonight. Neice won US competion and will be inducted into a certain symphany orchestra as their new pianist tonight. Lord willing, next chance i can do it though i do not have it in text as requested. Possibly tomorrow morning before i go to work. If not tomorrow early evening CST.

    Do you wish to have transliteration with English?
    Would Strong's numbers help (the Strong's helps could take some time as these would all have to be looked up in their diclionary to find what numbers exactly; but Strong's doesn't give tenses... what about Driver Biggs Lexicon.)

    Whatever whenever completed will be sent accordingly as i will not be online FTB.






    Certainly many have their opinions as to this subject. However, I would observe that where so many profess knowledge, they are stymied at the first incongruity. Take for example the word "until":

    un∑til (n-tl)
    prep.
    1. Up to the time of: We danced until dawn.


    • Did they dance until midnight?
    • Did they dance until dawn?
    • Did they dance until noon?



    So if they stopped dancing at dawn, then why do these same linguistic conventions not apply to Daniel 1:21?


    21 Thus Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.


    To coin a phrase from "My Cousin Vinny", is this a magical "until"? Is this come from the same guy who sold Jack his "until" dictionary definition?



    And if Daniel DID continue until, AND ONLY UNTIL, the FIRST year of Cyrus, what was he doing in the THIRD year of Cyrus?

    Daniel 10:1
    1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a message was revealed to Daniel, ...





    Thanks,
    BibleScribe
    i really like the way you think

    Personally, opinions remain witheld until all the facts are in, (and then some,) and only various applications are usually put forth from here, according to viability.

    The reason the possiblities may not apply to the above passage is in the Hebrew text, the words surrounding the word in question have definite bearing (usually) as to specifics...and i have not checked.

    The idea presented concerning prophecy though is not opinion as to what it is. Rather it is in the context of the aspects (in context) that have defined it throughout the scriptures.

    i really had no intention of discussing this as am quite busied at present with home and work, however, when there is online time next, after replying to David M. in the "Jesus is not a Fruitcake" thread, i can join...perhaps.

    The idea was to assist if possible and just sit back while everyone carried on.



    Sincerely,

    Timmy
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  10. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Yes, but will be busy with family til late tonight. Neice won US competion and will be inducted into a certain symphany orchestra as their new pianist tonight.
    Congratulations to your neice. That's no small accomplishment and some of us know those long hours of practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Do you wish to have transliteration with English?
    Would Strong's numbers help (the Strong's helps could take some time as these would all have to be looked up in their diclionary to find what numbers exactly; but Strong's doesn't give tenses... what about Driver Biggs Lexicon.)

    Whatever whenever completed will be sent accordingly as i will not be online FTB.
    I certainly wish the Septuagint OT were as available as the Masoretic, and certainly wouldn't ask you to do something that I can do. I was hoping for an available interlinear with a Strong's reference #. But if this requires mucking through, then preferably by me if that's what it takes, I'm not certain it's worth it unless you feel that a 1:1 comparison is advantageous. -- Please let me know your thoughts.



    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post

    i really like the way you think

    Personally, opinions remain witheld until all the facts are in, (and then some,) and only various applications are usually put forth from here, according to viability.

    The reason the possiblities may not apply to the above passage is in the Hebrew text, the words surrounding the word in question have definite bearing (usually) as to specifics...and i have not checked.

    The idea presented concerning prophecy though is not opinion as to what it is. Rather it is in the context of the aspects (in context) that have defined it throughout the scriptures.

    i really had no intention of discussing this as am quite busied at present with home and work, however, when there is online time next, after replying to David M. in the "Jesus is not a Fruitcake" thread, i can join...perhaps.

    The idea was to assist if possible and just sit back while everyone carried on.

    LOL, -- Yeah, I kinda have a soft spot in my heart for this Book, and am more than disappointed that so many miss the insights of Young, Newton, Keil, Kliefoth, Montgomery, and even Mauro. But the funnier thing is that where these grasp the impossibilities of the textual evidence, they still miss some glaring clues. Take for instance the Dan. 2:45, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold. Who'd a guessed that the sequence, 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, confirms modern history with the FIFTH empire of Clay being "divided" between the three superpowers.

    But thank your for your more than pleasant conversation, and please DO let me know your thoughts on the Septuigant text.



    With Best Regards,
    BibleScribe

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