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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Oh now it makes sense. Otherwise meneh wouldn't have been spoke 10. The quote in Hebrews is psalm 40.
    Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

    Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    Getting back to the topic at hand, it is interesting that the words quoted from Psalm 40 in Hebrews 10:5 appear only in the LXX - they Massoretic text says "my ears you have opened" rather than "a body hast thou prepared for me." There are many such examples where NT quotes from the LXX not the MT.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Getting back to the topic at hand, it is interesting that the words quoted from Psalm 40 in Hebrews 10:5 appear only in the LXX - they Massoretic text says "my ears you have opened" rather than "a body hast thou prepared for me." There are many such examples where NT quotes from the LXX not the MT.
    True but I also heard that some passages WERE quoted from MSS for more accuracy but don't know which ones exactly.
    I also wonder:
    2 Timothy 3
    8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
    Who were these guys? The King James' Old Testament makes no mention of them.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Getting back to the topic at hand, it is interesting that the words quoted from Psalm 40 in Hebrews 10:5 appear only in the LXX - they Massoretic text says "my ears you have opened" rather than "a body hast thou prepared for me." There are many such examples where NT quotes from the LXX not the MT.
    Hey buddy! I'm glad you jumped in on this. I posted on this subject in post #5. The phrase "my ears you have opened" only appear in the Masoretic Text. I have to find my source, but St. Justin Maytyr who makes mention of this alteration.

    The Masoretes purposefully altered the phrase "a body has thou prepared for me" to "mine ears you have opened" because the 2nd century Christians were showing that Jesus, who died on the cross, fulfilled Psalm 40:6-8. But the Masoretes altered the verse, and then accused the Christians of using the Septuagint, which the Masoretes claimed were Alexandrian corruptions. I find it quite interesting how many of the NT quoates of the Old Testament match the LXX.

    But thanks for joining my friend. I hope all is well with my old buddy.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 04-06-2011 at 04:17 AM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Hey buddy! I'm glad you jumped in on this. I posted on this subject in post #5. The phrase "my ears you have opened" only appear in the Masoretic Text. I have to find my source, but St. Justin Maytyr who makes mention of this alteration.

    The Masoretes purposefully altered the phrase "a body has thou prepared for me" to "mine ears you have opened" because the 2nd century Christians were showing that Jesus, who died on the cross, fulfilled Psalm 40:6-8. But the Masoretes altered the verse, and then accused the Christians of using the Septuagint, which the Masoretes claimed were Alexandrian corruptions. I find it quite interesting how many of the NT quoates of the Old Testament match the LXX.

    But thanks for joining my friend. I hope all is well with my old buddy.

    Joe
    Hey there my friend,

    Yes, I had read your comments last week, but they slipped my mind when I was answering gilgal. I think the study of how certain parties, both Christian and Jewish, have tampered with the Scriptures is very important and interesting. It's pretty crazy when you realize that there are people who ignorantly conform their lives and beliefs to fit things that some partisan liar invented a thousand years ago!

    And you are correct, many of the NT quotes were taken from the LXX. But there are problems too because some of the LXX is crap. For example, consider this key verse:
    KJV Zechariah 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
    Here's how it is translated in the LXX:
    LXE Zechariah 3:9 For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes: behold, I am digging a trench, saith the Lord Almighty, and I will search out all the iniquity of that land in one day.
    Digging a trench? Say what? The MT is clearly superior here.

    So like everything else in the Bible, we have a "mixed bag" here. The LXX is not "superior" and neither is the MT. The text is a mixed up mess. Every man is left on his own to figure it out as best suits him.

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there my friend,

    Yes, I had read your comments last week, but they slipped my mind when I was answering gilgal. I think the study of how certain parties, both Christian and Jewish, have tampered with the Scriptures is very important and interesting. It's pretty crazy when you realize that there are people who ignorantly conform their lives and beliefs to fit things that some partisan liar invented a thousand years ago!

    And you are correct, many of the NT quotes were taken from the LXX. But there are problems too because some of the LXX is crap. For example, consider this key verse:
    KJV Zechariah 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
    Here's how it is translated in the LXX:
    LXE Zechariah 3:9 For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes: behold, I am digging a trench, saith the Lord Almighty, and I will search out all the iniquity of that land in one day.
    Digging a trench? Say what? :dontknow: The MT is clearly superior here.

    So like everything else in the Bible, we have a "mixed bag" here. The LXX is not "superior" and neither is the MT. The text is a mixed up mess. Every man is left on his own to figure it out as best suits him.

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    What about the dead sea scrolls?
    Ps 40 is ps 39 in LXX

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    What about the dead sea scrolls?
    Ps 40 is ps 39 in LXX
    I wish I knew. The scholars don't like to share the scrolls. Bits and pieces are available online but I have not been able to find Psalm 40.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I wish I knew. The scholars don't like to share the scrolls. Bits and pieces are available online but I have not been able to find Psalm 40.
    Here's a list of OT quotes in the NT:
    http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm
    Commentaries:
    http://forum.yadayahweh.com/yaf_post...etic-Text.aspx

    I don't know if the Psalm 40 was intentionally omitted but remember the missing Nun of psalm 145 in the Masoretic Text which was there in the Dead Sea Scroll version.

    Also why are the Psalms go back one chapter? Psalm 40 in the KJV is 39 in the LXX.
    Last edited by gilgal; 04-07-2011 at 12:59 AM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Here's a list of OT quotes in the NT:
    http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm
    Commentaries:
    http://forum.yadayahweh.com/yaf_post...etic-Text.aspx

    I don't know if the Psalm 40 was intentionally omitted but remember the missing Nun of psalm 145 in the Masoretic Text which was there in the Dead Sea Scroll version.

    Also why are the Psalms go back one chapter? Psalm 40 in the KJV is 39 in the LXX.
    Thanks for the links.

    The chapter numbers are different because the LXX combines Psalms 9 & 10 which were originally a single acrostic Psalm running from Aleph to Tav. The chapter numbers match up to Psalm 9, and after that they are off by one.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Thanks for the links.

    The chapter numbers are different because the LXX combines Psalms 9 & 10 which were originally a single acrostic Psalm running from Aleph to Tav. The chapter numbers match up to Psalm 9, and after that they are off by one.
    Who are the Masorites? What age did they live in? 14th 15th century?

  10. #20
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    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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