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  1. #1
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    Masoretic Text vs. Greek Septuagint

    Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus everyone.

    I’ve discussed the Greek Septuagint in the past, and have concluded that the modern English Bibles are still relying on a myth, that God’s Old Testament as passed down by Moses, is only to be trusted at the hands of the Hebrews. Unfortunately, this has not been the case at all, in my opinion, which I will try to prove to be factually based.

    The Old Testament was corrupted after the 2nd century by a group of Jews known as the Masorite’s; hence the name “Masoretic Text”. The Early Church spoke and wrote Greek, and thus the Greek Septuagint has been the official Old Testament of the Churches all throughout Israel. If you’ve ever noticed, there are Old Testament quotations in the New Testament that do not have support from the Masoretic Text. It is thus my intension to discuss these differences with everyone.

    Let me call your attention to Micah 4:8, but first from the New King James Version of the Old Testament:

    8 And you, O tower of the flock,
    The stronghold of the daughter of Zion,
    To you shall it come,
    Even the former dominion shall come,
    The kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem.”


    You have to read all of Micah 4 to grasp a better understanding of what this Prophesy was about. Primarily, it’s about the coming of the Messiah, and the choosing of the “remnant” of Israel, who would go forth “figuratively” to preach the word of God into the kingdom of “Babylon”. But notice that the noun “Babylon” is not found in the traditional Masoretic text of Micah 4.

    Now, let’s read verse 8 from the Septuagint:

    8 And thou, dark tower of the flock, daughter of Sion, on thee the dominion shall come and enter in, even the first kingdom from Babylon to the daughter of Jerusalem. 9 And now, why hast thou known calamities? was there not a king to thee? or has thy counsel perished that pangs as of a woman in travail have seized upon thee? 10 Be in pain, and strengthen thyself, and draw near, O daughter of Sion, as a woman in travail: for now thou shalt go forth out of the city, and shalt lodge in the plain, and shalt reach even to Babylon: thence shall the Lord thy God deliver thee, and thence shall he redeem thee out of the hand of thine enemies.

    Notice the phrase “Dark Tour” is not included in the traditional Masoretic text? Why? I believe this prophesy was about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, but you would not arrive at this conclusion from the Masoretic text as it was apparently altered.

    I’m interested in your opinions in this matter. There are many more verses that have apparently been altered by the Masorites. Micah 4 was just one example. I will show you how even the New Testament matches roughly 88 percent of the Septuagint as the New Testament contains quotations from the Apostles that cannot be found in the Masoretic text. It is my belief that the Masorites altered/removed most of the passages from the traditional “Torah” containing in reference to Christ, and How Christ would choose a remnant in the first century, and leave the rest to destruction.

    More to come. For now, I’d like your opinions on Micah 4. OH, and I just purchased a brand new English translation of the Septuagint. It’s called the “Orthodox Study Bible”. I don’t agree with the study notes it contains, but it is currently the only modern English translation available of the Septuagint. It uses the New King James New Testament with minor modifications.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus everyone.

    I’ve discussed the Greek Septuagint in the past, and have concluded that the modern English Bibles are still relying on a myth, that God’s Old Testament as passed down by Moses, is only to be trusted at the hands of the Hebrews. Unfortunately, this has not been the case at all, in my opinion, which I will try to prove to be factually based.

    The Old Testament was corrupted after the 2nd century by a group of Jews known as the Masorite’s; hence the name “Masoretic Text”. The Early Church spoke and wrote Greek, and thus the Greek Septuagint has been the official Old Testament of the Churches all throughout Israel. If you’ve ever noticed, there are Old Testament quotations in the New Testament that do not have support from the Masoretic Text. It is thus my intension to discuss these differences with everyone.

    Let me call your attention to Micah 4:8, but first from the New King James Version of the Old Testament:

    8 And you, O tower of the flock,
    The stronghold of the daughter of Zion,
    To you shall it come,
    Even the former dominion shall come,
    The kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem.”


    You have to read all of Micah 4 to grasp a better understanding of what this Prophesy was about. Primarily, it’s about the coming of the Messiah, and the choosing of the “remnant” of Israel, who would go forth “figuratively” to preach the word of God into the kingdom of “Babylon”. But notice that the noun “Babylon” is not found in the traditional Masoretic text of Micah 4.

    Now, let’s read verse 8 from the Septuagint:

    8 And thou, dark tower of the flock, daughter of Sion, on thee the dominion shall come and enter in, even the first kingdom from Babylon to the daughter of Jerusalem. 9 And now, why hast thou known calamities? was there not a king to thee? or has thy counsel perished that pangs as of a woman in travail have seized upon thee? 10 Be in pain, and strengthen thyself, and draw near, O daughter of Sion, as a woman in travail: for now thou shalt go forth out of the city, and shalt lodge in the plain, and shalt reach even to Babylon: thence shall the Lord thy God deliver thee, and thence shall he redeem thee out of the hand of thine enemies.

    Notice the phrase “Dark Tour” is not included in the traditional Masoretic text? Why? I believe this prophesy was about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, but you would not arrive at this conclusion from the Masoretic text as it was apparently altered.

    I’m interested in your opinions in this matter. There are many more verses that have apparently been altered by the Masorites. Micah 4 was just one example. I will show you how even the New Testament matches roughly 88 percent of the Septuagint as the New Testament contains quotations from the Apostles that cannot be found in the Masoretic text. It is my belief that the Masorites altered/removed most of the passages from the traditional “Torah” containing in reference to Christ, and How Christ would choose a remnant in the first century, and leave the rest to destruction.

    More to come. For now, I’d like your opinions on Micah 4. OH, and I just purchased a brand new English translation of the Septuagint. It’s called the “Orthodox Study Bible”. I don’t agree with the study notes it contains, but it is currently the only modern English translation available of the Septuagint. It uses the New King James New Testament with minor modifications.

    God bless.

    Joe
    I have to reread Micah but off the top of my head Micah is written before the Babylonian existence during the Assyrian times. In Micah 5 it talks about the Assyrian. But when King Manasseh was carried away he went to Babylon (Province I guess) during Assyrian time. Check when the prophecy's written in the intro. And compare it to the time frame of Isaiah and 2Kings and 2Chronicles.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I have to reread Micah but off the top of my head Micah is written before the Babylonian existence during the Assyrian times. In Micah 5 it talks about the Assyrian. But when King Manasseh was carried away he went to Babylon (Province I guess) during Assyrian time. Check when the prophecy's written in the intro. And compare it to the time frame of Isaiah and 2Kings and 2Chronicles.

    Good points, and you may be right. All in all, I believe Micah 4 is about the coming of the Messiah, and how He would gather a "remnant", or "elect" and build them into a new kingdom that would not only bless Jerusalem, but the many nations around them. It is also a prophesy about God's judgment upon the "Dark Tower", that is to say, the Jerusalem that had become evil and corrupt.

    Here's the entire chapter of Micah 4 for your reading. I've high lighted the key text:

    1 And at the last days the mountain of the Lord shall be manifest, established on the tops of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and the peoples shall hasten to it. 2 And many nations shall go, and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and they shall shew us his way, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Sion shall go forth a law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many peoples, and shall rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into sickles; and nation shall no more lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn to war any more. 4 And every one shall rest under his vine, and every one under his fig-tree; and there shall be none to alarm [them]: for the mouth of the Lord Almighty has spoken these [words]. 5 For all [other] nations shall walk everyone in his own way, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever. 6 In that day, saith the Lord, I will gather her that is bruised, and will receive her that is cast out, and those whom I rejected. 7 And I will make her that was bruised a remnant, and her that was rejected a mighty nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Sion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, dark tower of the flock, daughter of Sion, on thee the dominion shall come and enter in, [even] the first kingdom from Babylon to the daughter of Jerusalem. 9 And now, why hast thou known calamities? was there not a king to thee? or has thy counsel perished that pangs as of a woman in travail have seized upon thee? 10 Be in pain, and strengthen thyself, and draw near, O daughter of Sion, as a woman in travail: for now thou shalt go forth out of the city, and shalt lodge in the plain, and shalt reach even to Babylon: thence shall the Lord thy God deliver thee, and thence shall he redeem thee out of the hand of thine enemies. 11 And now have many nations gathered against thee, saying, We will rejoice, and our eyes shall look upon Sion. 12 But they know not the thought of the Lord, and have not understood his counsel: for he has gathered them as sheaves of the floor. 13 Arise, and thresh them, O daughter of Sion: for I will make thine horns iron, and I will make thine hoofs brass: and thou shalt utterly destroy many nations, and shalt consecrate their abundance to the Lord, and their strength to the Lord of all the earth. 14 Now shall the daughter [of Sion] be completely hedged in: he has laid siege against us: they shall smite the tribes of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

    There are indications of this prohpesy matching that of Revelation. Notice the last high lighted text where it states that the Tribes of Israel shall be smite on the cheek? In my opinion, this is in reference to the jugdment, according to John in Revelation, of God judging the 12 Tribes of Israel who were NOT sealed (delivered) from this wrath that was to come.

    Notice also how only a "remnant" would be delivered to establish the "mountain" of Jerusalem? And also how the "dark tower" [representing Apostates abiding in Jerusalem] were to be judged because they are without a true king.

    In conclusion, I'm convinced that Micah 4 was about Christ choosing His elect to build Jerusalem all over again (or rebuild it) into a Holy Mountain that all the nations would worship in; this is a figure of speech, for Jesus states to the Samaritan woman at the well, that those afar off would no longer travel to any Mountain (physically), but would worship God in the spiritual mountain/kingdom; this of course is the Church.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 03-30-2011 at 06:23 AM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #4
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    I reread this part yesterday. But I'm still not sure if there is a specific time to which it refers to. Because it talks about the "Assyrian" in Micah 5. In the beginning of that chapter it mentions the birthplace of the Messiah.

    Then it says they shall smite the judge of Israel and he will give them up, most probably he's talking about the gospel going to the Gentiles and the destruction of 70AD.

    But the Assyrian conquest is something in Micah's time. Unless if there is a double prophecy. You know that Kings usually marry among kings to unify kingdoms. And maybe over time the title "the Assyrian" is passed down to a future ruler.

    But in any case Micah 4's beginning matches Isaiah 2. They prophesied simultaneously since Micah's and Isaiah's beginnings say:
    Micah 1
    1
    The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.
    Isaiah 1
    1
    The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
    But I'm also confused because there were two kingdoms: Israel and Judah. But they seem to be referring to one kingdom calling it Israel and Judah, or Jacob by their ancestor's name.

    Maybe the prophecies are referring to Judah alone since their beginnings were pointing to the kings of Judah.

    We first have to make sure we read the books 2Kings, 2Chronicles, Isaiah 2 and if there are any other writings from Uzziah's reign to Hezekiah's.

  5. #5
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    Interesting points about the study of Micah. Perhaps it is a dual fulfillment, or at least a Prophesy involving "pockets" of fulfillments from both time-frames; one pocket then, and another pocket at a different time frame.

    At any rate, let us continue observing the differences between the Masoretic corruptions vs. the integrity of the Septuagint.

    In the book to the Hebrews 10:5, we read: New King James Version

    5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

    “ Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
    But a body You have prepared for Me.
    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
    You had no pleasure.
    7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
    In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
    To do Your will, O God.’”


    The author of Hebrews was quoting from the Old Testament Psalm 40:6-8. Let's take a look at the supposed "preserved word of God" from the Hebrew Old Testament as passed down by the Masoretes:

    Psalm 40: New King James Version (Masoretic Text)

    6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
    My ears You have opened.
    Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
    7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
    In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
    8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
    And Your law is within my heart.”


    Hmmm? Does that look like a match to you? What do the the ears (or understanding) of the Messiah have to do with sacrifices and offerings? Was the author of Hebrews mistaken when he copied from the so called "Masoretic Text", if he were using the Torah? Would it not be different from the Torah we posses today? Or knowing that the author of Hebrews was quoting from memory at the FULL inspiration of the Holy Spirit, was he somehow mistaken by inserting a different reading than from the text passed down, supposedly preserved, by the Masoretes?

    NOW, let's see what the Septuagint reads: Early Church Preserved Greek Septuagint

    Psalm 40:6-8

    6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require. 7 Then I said, Behold, I come: in the volume of the book it is written concerning me, 8 I desired to do thy will, O my God, and thy law in the midst of mine heart.


    AND WE HAVE A WINNER! It appears that the Septuagint, a translation from the Hebrew speaking Greeks of the 4rth century B.C. were preserving God's Torah as passed down to Moses 400 years prior to Christ. And we also see that the author of Hebrews was quoting from the Greek Septuagint, or at least from the Hebrew text of his day.

    Now if the Hebrew text of his day read correctly, then we must ask ourselves, where did this Masoretic text come from?

    For more information on how the Masoretes dooped the Church into accepting the alterations the Jews made from the 2nd to the 10th century, refer to this site: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masorete.htm

    Certain Church Fathers in the 2nd and 3rd century debated with certain Jews on how the Old Testament (at least the one they used at that time) had more than enough proof of Jesus being the true Messiah. Having lost arguments, and probably growing tired of seeing Gentile's know more of God's word than they did, they engaged in an apparent evil; the Masoretic Jews began altering the passages the Church used to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.

    At any rate, we have seen so far that the Septuagint is NOT a corruption of the Hebrew text. And considering the fact that the Jews of the 2nd centuries continued to reject Christ, logic alone would suggest that an evil generation (even their generation) could not be trusted to preserve the very word of God; the same God they reject and who's forefathers nailed to the cross.

    More to come; much more.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 03-31-2011 at 04:46 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    At any rate, let us continue observing the differences between the Masoretic corruptions vs. the integrity of the Septuagint.

    In the book to the Hebrews 10:5, we read: New King James Version

    5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

    ' Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
    But a body You have prepared for Me.
    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
    You had no pleasure.
    7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
    In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
    To do Your will, O God.’'


    The author of Hebrews was quoting from the Old Testament Psalm 40:6-8. Let's take a look at the supposed "preserved word of God" from the Hebrew Old Testament as passed down by the Masoretes:

    Psalm 40: New King James Version (Masoretic Text)

    6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
    My ears You have opened.
    Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
    7 Then I said, 'Behold, I come;
    In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
    8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
    And Your law is within my heart.'
    That's a good observation. How far do the Masoretes date back? The Septuagint dates back to almost 200BC. There are now three known sources we can look at:
    1. The Masoretic Text (Old Testament).
    2. The Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
    3. and The Dead Sea Scrolls recently discovered in 1948.

    This kind of thing, I think occurs in several passages.

  7. #7
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    The word
    prepare:h4487
    מנה manah
    occurs many times in the book of Jonah spoke 10. And here in the 10th chapter in Hebrews it is mentioned.
    Is it a coincidence Richard or is there a link in spoke 10?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    That's a good observation. How far do the Masoretes date back? The Septuagint dates back to almost 200BC. There are now three known sources we can look at:
    1. The Masoretic Text (Old Testament).
    2. The Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
    3. and The Dead Sea Scrolls recently discovered in 1948.

    This kind of thing, I think occurs in several passages.
    The only surviving copies of the Masoretic text range from 700 AD to 1000 AD. This would suggest that the tampering took place sometime slightly earlier. Justin Martyr wrote in his writing that many of the Jews abiding in Alexandria were purposely altering the text to remove any hint or indication of Christ Jesus. And in some places, they altered the text that denoted Gentiles sharing in God's glory of the Kingdom. According to some sources, there are about 200 differences between the modern day Masoretic text compared to the Septuagint. The Dead Sea scrolls matches roughly 88% percent of the Greek Septuagint, and 12% percent matching the Masoretic text. But the majority of the New Testament quotes match the Greek Septuagint.

    Now this does not suggest that the Torah used by the Apostles (assuming they weren't using the Greek Septuagint) was correct in their day. Thus it is believed that 2nd century Jews willfully corrupted the Old Testament to be passed on to future Jewish generations to prevent any conversions to Christianity. Historically speaking, one of the arguments used by 2nd century Jews is that the Church could not be right because it did not use the Torah of the Jews. So they tried discrediting the Septuagint.

    Unfortunately, St. Jerome of the 4rth century was the first to adapt to the myth that the Old Testament could only be preserved by the Jews. So his translation was based on what manuscripts supplied to him by Jews.

    Another example of Masoretic corruption is the Prophesy of the "Virgin Birth". The Marsoretes removed the word "virgin" and replaced it with "young woman". But sometime during Martin Luther's day, the Jews reverted back to "virgin" in order to get the Church to accept their Old Testament. The Protestants refused to accept the Torah from the Masoretes because of the one word.

    I call this the largest scam in Jewish history; a sinful people willfully altering God's recorded word simply for the sake of denying Jesus. There are websites from a particular Rabbi who uses this argument to denounce the Church; he even claims to be a prior Christian pastor who stepped down once he supposedly received the truth that Jesus was NOT the Messiah.

    More to come.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    The word
    occurs many times in the book of Jonah spoke 10. And here in the 10th chapter in Hebrews it is mentioned.
    Is it a coincidence Richard or is there a link in spoke 10?
    It appears 4 times in Jonah. It does seem prominent, but I don't see how it links specifically to Spoke 10. It is curious though that the form of the word is ימן (yaman) which is exemplifies the grammatical function of Yod when prefixed to a root.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    It appears 4 times in Jonah. It does seem prominent, but I don't see how it links specifically to Spoke 10. It is curious though that the form of the word is ימן (yaman) which is exemplifies the grammatical function of Yod when prefixed to a root.
    Oh now it makes sense. Otherwise meneh wouldn't have been spoke 10. The quote in Hebrews is psalm 40.
    Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

    Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

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