The "ye" principle, this generation, & Mt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.

[Twospirits]

In answer to Edward Goodie and Rams post question on the Discourse.


First let me give you these passages on the position I hold that I have given in this thread.

The 1st century fulfillment events are given beginning in Mt. 24:4-14 (on-going-gospel/salvation age); Mark 13:5-13 (on-going-gospel/salvation age); Luke 21:8-24 (on-going-gospel/salvation age).

The events that concern Christ's coming and end of the age are the events beginning from Mt. 24:14F; Mark 13:13F and Luke 21:24F at the end (or near end) of the gospel/salvation age.


What breaks the future fulfillment from the 1st century fulfillment is the gospel/salvation age. (Mt. 28:20; Acts 2:39,'--as many as the Lord shall call' BEFORE THE (final) Day of the Lord). It is given in Mt. 24:14, 'And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (inhabited world from the 1st century onward, not just the Roman inhabited world) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.'

The gospel/salvation age in Luke is seen as continuing from the time the Jews are led captive into all nations. Luke 21:24, (they) –shall be led captives into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.'

I believe the abomination of desolation of Mt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14 and following events are future in fulfillment and is not the fulfillment of Luke 21:20, the armies surrounding Jerusalem. Now you have a better understanding of my position on the Discourse and what I see as past and what I see as future.

I have found the major problem with preterist hermeneutics when they look to the Discourse 'as a unit' is that they must then go on to struggle and change the nature and meanings of many passages that relate and are tied to the coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, the gathering of the elect, the destruction of the ungodly, etc. In most cases this is done by spiritualizing or changing meanings of many texts that are problematic so as to fit in with their hermeneutics. This alone should raise a red flag that this approach is wrong. I know this from personal experience that in doing this, it leads us down the wrong road. But if one accepts the gospel/salvation era, beginning at Pentecost recorded in the NT, it solves the 'unity problem' of the Discourse; and other related passages then fall in place without a need of any gymnastics. To name a few, passages such as Mt. 28:20; Acts 2:17-21 and 1 Cor. 15:24.

I don't see the gospel/salvation age in the Discourse as being considered 'a gap,' as some like Ram reject and call it, but rather is an integral part of the prophecy and is completely valid, biblical, and falls well into place with the other related passages in the NT which confirms their place in the Discourse prophecy.

God bless---Twospirits

[Brother Les]

I do not recall this 'on-going-gospel/salvation age' talked about in the OT? It that the Messiahnic Age that Has Not End?

[Twospirits]

I do not recall this 'on-going-gospel/salvation age' talked about in the OT? It that the Messiahnic Age that Has Not End?

Les, I gave you 2 passages that speak of this age, Mt. 28:20; Acts 2:17-21. The "end" of this age is said by Jesus himself. "I am with you always until the end of the age." The "end" Jesus speaks of is seen in 1 Cor. 15:24, "Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,--."

We've hashed this out before so I know you'll reject this and give me in return the Eph. 3:21 passage in rebuttal, correct?

God bless---Twospirits

[noble]

Les, I gave you 2 passages that speak of this age, Mt. 28:20; Acts 2:17-21. The "end" of this age is said by Jesus himself. "I am with you always until the end of the age." The "end" Jesus speaks of is seen in 1 Cor. 15:24, "Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,--."

We've hashed this out before so I know you'll reject this and give me in return the Eph. 3:21 passage in rebuttal, correct?

God bless---Twospirits

So I still got a question for you Two....

In Matthew 24 did Jesus tell His friends to flee when they saw the abomination or not? And by fleeing Judea to the mountains, what would they avoid?

noble

[Brother Les]

So I still got a question for you Two....

In Matthew 24 did Jesus tell His friends to flee when they saw the abomination or not? And by fleeing Judea to the mountains, what would they avoid?

noble

They were avoiding the OC Marriage Curses of Judgement. 'Futurest' wishe to put these 'curses' at the end of a percieved 'church age'. While Almost every Christian agrees that the Mosaic Covenant has 'passed'. It should be very clear that when that Marriage Covenant 'Passed', then the terms of the Marriage Covenant would be bestowed on the Harlot Bride at that time. It is a very strange doctrine that 'Futurests' have that the Judgement of The Sins of the Whole House of Israel would not happen until thousands of years after the Mosaic Marriage Covenant is over and that the Messiahnic Marriage Covenant 'That Never Ends' is in Force...... would have an End????? Do we not understand that the destruction of the Old Heavens and Earth are/were to come about Because of The Sins of Israel???? All Israel Sinned and all Israel, The Northern House of Israel and the Southern House of Judah must pass throught The Fire and become a New Creation or be destroyed. 'Futurests' seem to demand that this has not happened yet. 'Futurest' demands the death of 2/3s of all Israelites that are living in 'The World'. Is this a Biblical Prophecy Truth? Yes it is. But it must be noted that this prophecy was Fulfilled 2,000 years ago. The Fleeing of Messiahtains (Christians) from Judea did occur in the First Century. The New Jerusalem has come down and is now among us.

[noble]

Oops!

NOBLE

[noble]

They were avoiding the OC Marriage Curses of Judgement. 'Futurest' wishe to put these 'curses' at the end of a percieved 'church age'. While Almost every Christian agrees that the Mosaic Covenant has 'passed'. It should be very clear that when that Marriage Covenant 'Passed', then the terms of the Marriage Covenant would be bestowed on the Harlot Bride at that time. It is a very strange doctrine that 'Futurests' have that the Judgement of The Sins of the Whole House of Israel would not happen until thousands of years after the Mosaic Marriage Covenant is over and that the Messiahnic Marriage Covenant 'That Never Ends' is in Force...... would have an End????? Do we not understand that the destruction of the Old Heavens and Earth are/were to come about Because of The Sins of Israel???? All Israel Sinned and all Israel, The Northern House of Israel and the Southern House of Judah must pass throught The Fire and become a New Creation or be destroyed. 'Futurests' seem to demand that this has not happened yet. 'Futurest' demands the death of 2/3s of all Israelites that are living in 'The World'. Is this a Biblical Prophecy Truth? Yes it is. But it must be noted that this prophecy was Fulfilled 2,000 years ago. The Fleeing of Messiahtains (Christians) from Judea did occur in the First Century. The New Jerusalem has come down and is now among us.

Yes, the flight of the people did happen 2000 years ago. I agree with what you wrote but a very simple answer is that they would avoid this:

21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

The next event of consequence in this sequence of events is the coming of the son of man on the clouds. The key to all of this is that Luke 21 shows us the same events. We have all heard the argument that this is a different answer by Jesus. That story comes on many forms but they are all bull .............. not right. SOme stories say that Luke doesn't have the great trib in there so.... However, the great trib happens before the coming of the son of man so when Luke wrote this:

23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;

He meant the great trib. All of this in Luke leads back to the armies surrounding Jerusalem which of course, is what the abomination is in Matthew 24. Any futurists who want to argue any of this have one more verse to deal with:

"the heavens will be shaken"

These words occur in all three accounts and this shaking is exactly with the coming. God tells us that He will shake the heavens only ONE more time.

Hebrews 12:26
At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, 'Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.'

This verse says a multitude of things. First it makes it very clear that what goes on in Heaven is not for us here on earth to see, God shook the heavens and we accept that on faith. If we can accept that on faith we can accept that Jesus comes in the heavenly realm as well.

So the shaking of the heavens cements, for all time, all three accounts of Jesus answer to the same conversation. It goes from the surrounding of Jerusalem, thru the flight of the people, to the shaking of the heavens which is at the one and only parousia. That is all He wrote!

noble

[Brother Les]

Yes, the flight of the people did happen 2000 years ago. I agree with what you wrote but a very simple answer is that they would avoid this:

21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

The next event of consequence in this sequence of events is the coming of the son of man on the clouds. The key to all of this is that Luke 21 shows us the same events. We have all heard the argument that this is a different answer by Jesus. That story comes on many forms but they are all bull .............. not right. SOme stories say that Luke doesn't have the great trib in there so.... However, the great trib happens before the coming of the son of man so when Luke wrote this:

23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;

He meant the great trib. All of this in Luke leads back to the armies surrounding Jerusalem which of course, is what the abomination is in Matthew 24. Any futurists who want to argue any of this have one more verse to deal with:

"the heavens will be shaken"

These words occur in all three accounts and this shaking is exactly with the coming. God tells us that He will shake the heavens only ONE more time.

Hebrews 12:26
At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, 'Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.'

This verse says a multitude of things. First it makes it very clear that what goes on in Heaven is not for us here on earth to see, God shook the heavens and we accept that on faith. If we can accept that on faith we can accept that Jesus comes in the heavenly realm as well. So the shaking of the heavens cements, for all time, all three accounts of Jesus answer to the same conversation. It goes from the surrounding of Jerusalem, thru the flight of the people, to the shaking of the heavens which is at the one and only parousia. That is all He wrote!

noble

Hello noble,
We should read the Bible from the Eastern Oriental mindset of the first century Hebrews and visualize what is being said. Jesus/God is shaking His Covenantal Peoples. These Peoples are called, 'The Earth' and the governments and leadership of these covenantal Peoples are called 'the Heavens'. These Covenantal Peoples are of the Old Creation. This Old Creation covenant Peoples WERE destroyed and Jesus/God Redeemed (took back) to Himself those of the Elect as a New Creation and thus becoming a New Heaven and New Earth of Israel/The Body/The Church.

[noble]

Hello noble,
We should read the Bible from the Eastern Oriental mindset of the first century Hebrews and visualize what is being said. Jesus/God is shaking His Covenantal Peoples. These Peoples are called, 'The Earth' and the governments and leadership of these covenantal Peoples are called 'the Heavens'. These Covenantal Peoples are of the Old Creation. This Old Creation covenant Peoples WERE destroyed and Jesus/God Redeemed (took back) to Himself those of the Elect as a New Creation and thus becoming a New Heaven and New Earth of Israel/The Body/The Church.

Except it doesn't matter if God shook the heavenly cat, it was a one time event and it happened in conjunction with the coming of the son of man on the clouds. The event which when the sequence of events are followed back in time, in Lukes account or in Matthews account, takes us to the abomination/armies surrounding Jerusalem. That is the start of the sequence of events which everyone takes as the start of the Judean rebellion.

noble