The "ye" principle, this generation, & Mt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

We can get an understanding of what the disciples thought as well as the thoughts of others as we read prophetic prophecy.

Gen. 49:1, 'And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.'

Did these things befall Jacob's sons in this/their generation? No, and concerning Jacob's son Judah, this wasn't fulfilled till Christ's first Advent well over 1800 years later.

Hey there twospirits,

Your question proves that the original hearers would have understood that the "you" meant "your descendents." This is entirely different than the "you" in the Olivet Discourse. There is nothing in the words of Jesus that implied he was talking about a future generation. On the contrary, he explicitly stated that he was talking to and about "this generation" that was standing there hearing him. And his words were confirmed when the Temple was destroyed in 70 Ad. You argument not only falls, but it falls upon its own sword!

Gen. 50:24, 'And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.'

Did Joseph's brothers leave Egypt and enter the promised land in this/their generation? No, this wasn't fulfilled until hundreds of years later.

Again, the hearers knew and understood that he was talking about their descendents. There is nothing in the Olivet Discourse that suggests the hearers had any reaons whatsoever to think that Jesus was talking about a future generation. On the contrary, he was expicity when he said "this generation."

Deut. 28:36, 'The Lord shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.'

Was this fulfilled in this/their generation? No, it was hundreds of years before they had a king over them and this prophecy was fulfilled. They had long since died.

Again, your argument falls upon its own sword.

So when we follow this principle of God's Word and read such passages as Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 we clearly see that the 'you' Jesus is speaking to is defined by whichever generation would be alive when these 'prophetic events would come to pass.' It is not confined to the apostles and disciples of that day anymore than the prophecies that were spoken to the immediate audience and generations of Old Testament past times. I believe the ancient Israelites/Jews came to understand this prophetic principle inherent throughout the scriptures. So I guess that would make all the Jews of old, as well as myself- delusional.

And what were the "prophetic events" of which Christ spoke? Those leading up to and culminating in the destruction of the Temple. This was fulfilled in 70 AD, so by your argumment we know with perfect certainty that Jesus was talking to and about the first century generation.

All the best,

Richard

[Twospirits]

You have to cling to your old argument that there remains a district named Judea or at least there was such a district when Jesus said it. That has nothing to do with what I am asking you. I am asking you here if there is a flight of the people (forget the Judea part) when they see the abomination in Matthew 24.

You and I both know why you can't/won't /don't answer that don't we?

So again, is there a flight of the people after they see the abomination?

noble

Are you getting my meaning folks?

Noble, you started that silly "district of Judea" argument not me, I just refuted your silly argument with historical facts, so now its "forget the Judea part" EH? And what do you mean "it has nothing to do with what your asking me?" It had everything to do with what you asked me, but since I refuted it, now it doesn't?

See what I mean folks? This is why I don't wish to "debate" this gentleman any longer. I'm tired of his repeating and twisting things so--

LAST TIME!---it seems you enjoy riding the merry-go-round, but as for myself, I don't.

Twospirits

[Twospirits]

Ram wrote,

Twospirits wrote,

Gen. 49:1, 'And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.'

Did these things befall Jacob's sons in this/their generation? No, and concerning Jacob's son Judah, this wasn't fulfilled till Christ's first Advent well over 1800 years later.

Ram replied,

Your question proves that the original hearers would have understood that the "you" meant "your descendents."

Again, your argument falls upon its own sword.

Jacob was speaking directly to each of his sons when he stated these prophetic utterances in Genesis chapter 49, and I suspect they would have understood 'the last days' to be the latter time or 'last days' of their lives. A reading of what was prophesied to each of the sons gives that indication that it would be fulfilled within their lifetime, but we know it wasn't. Concerning Jacob's son Judah, this wasn't fulfilled till Christ's first Advent well over 1800 years later.

The same applies to what Joseph said to his brethren in Gen. 50:24, he specifically said, 'God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.' But this didn't occur until hundreds of years later.

I'm sure as time went on and prophetic utterances were given by God's prophets, by the time of Jesus, 1800 years later this 'you' principle inherent in scripture was well established and understood by the Jews in that time. If not, then they were completely brain-dead!

And what were the "prophetic events" of which Christ spoke? Those leading up to and culminating in the destruction of the Temple. This was fulfilled in 70 AD, so by your argumment we know with perfect certainty that Jesus was talking to and about the first century generation.

No Ram, the prophetic events do not "culminate" in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., they culminate with the coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, the gathering of the elect, and the destruction of the ungodly as scripture dictates. But that is another discussion which I have not the desire or time to get into.

God bless---Twospirits

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Jacob was speaking directly to each of his sons when he stated these prophetic utterances in Genesis chapter 49, and I suspect they would have understood 'the last days' to be the latter time or 'last days' of their lives. A reading of what was prophesied to each of the sons gives that indication that it would be fulfilled within their lifetime, but we know it wasn't. Concerning Jacob's son Judah, this wasn't fulfilled till Christ's first Advent well over 1800 years later.

You can "suspect" anything you want, but you have not shown anything in the text that would suggest you suspicions are correct. And the fact that the prophecy was not fulfilled in their lifetimes proves that if they did believe as you suggest, they would have been wrong. Exactly the opposite is the case with the Olivet Discourse. The hearers had every reason to believe that Christ was talking about them and their generation, and we know it was fulfilled during their lifetimes because the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

I'm sure as time went on and prophetic utterances were given by God's prophets, by the time of Jesus, 1800 years later this 'you' principle inherent in scripture was well established and understood by the Jews in that time. If not, then they were completely brain-dead!

Christ left no doubt that he was predicting the destruction of the Temple during the lifetime of his first century audience, and history confirms this happened exactly as predicted. Anyone who denies this is "brain-dead."

No Ram, the prophetic events do not "culminate" in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., they culminate with the coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, the gathering of the elect, and the destruction of the ungodly as scripture dictates. But that is another discussion which I have not the desire or time to get into.

Christ opened the Olivet Discourse with a prediction of the destruction of the Temple. It was fulfilled in 70 AD. It's just as well that you have neither "the desire or the time" to get into this, since it is a fool's errand to try to deny such obvious facts.

All the best,

Richard

[Twospirits]

Ram wrote,

Christ opened the Olivet Discourse with a prediction of the destruction of the Temple. It was fulfilled in 70 AD.---since it is a fool's errand to try to deny such obvious facts.

Just to set things straight, I never denied that the destruction of the temple occurred in 70 A.D., to deny THAT would be a fool's errand.

God bless---Twospirits

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Just to set things straight, I never denied that the destruction of the temple occurred in 70 A.D., to deny THAT would be a fool's errand.

God bless---Twospirits

I knew that, but I'm glad you reiterated it so everyone can know.

But it seems to me that it's just as much a "fool's errand" deny the unity of the three synoptic versions of the Olivet Discourse which is what you have done in your effort to create your Futurist interpretation, right?

All the best,

Richard

[Twospirits]

I knew that, but I'm glad you reiterated it so everyone can know.

But it seems to me that it's just as much a "fool's errand" deny the unity of the three synoptic versions of the Olivet Discourse which is what you have done in your effort to create your Futurist interpretation, right?

All the best,

Richard

I would agree with your unity of the Discourse version if it were not for the many other scriptures that contradicts such a conclusion. Those very contradicting scriptures is what led me to thoroughly study Matthew, Mark and Luke so that those contradicting scriptures (and not my presupposition of the Discourse) parallel, satisfy and meet Matthew, Mark and Luke, and I found that they have. The break in the unity of the Discourse lies in the salvation era that must be completed before the coming of Christ. Though I know you and others disagree with my conclusions that have been given in this thread and elsewhere.

God bless---Twospirits

[Edward Goodie]

Call it what you will, my rather long post was for the readers to understand how to see and interpret the NT scriptures as it concerns the body of Christ of which every generation is a part of. Sometimes we have no recourse in the matter. Never heard of this philosophy you call 'transcendence.' I'll cut right to the chase by giving the main passages that speak of 'this generation' minus the Discourse ones, those we'll contend with later.

These are the main passages below where the context shows Jesus was speaking to 'ye' of 'this generation,' of that 1st century to which they applied to, other than the passages of Mt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32, Jesus' Discourse. These will be discussed later.

Mt. 3:7, But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? This applied to the 1st century.

Mt. 11:16 (Luke 7:31), But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,--This applied to the 1st century.

Mt. 12:39 (Mt. 16:4; Luke 11:29-30), But he answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: This applied to the 1st century.

Mt. 12:41(Luke 11:32), The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. This applied to the 1st century.

Mt. 12:42, The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. This applied to the 1st century.

Mt. 23:36, Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. This applied to the 1st century.

Mark 8:12, And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation. This applied to the 1st century.


Luke 11:50-51, That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. This applied to the 1st century.


Luke 17:25, But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. This applied to the 1st century.


God bless---Twospirits

So, when the disciples who traveled with Jesus and heard him speak of their generation in those regards (wrath of God, evil, adulterous, condemned, rejects Christ, etc.) that all of a sudden when it concerns the destruction of Jerusalem (the initial question in the 3 Gospel accounts) that Jesus meant some other generation? And worse yet, He didn't tell them that it was another generation He had in mind!!! That is quite a stretch, my friend.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Just to set things straight, I never denied that the destruction of the temple occurred in 70 A.D., to deny THAT would be a fool's errand.

God bless---Twospirits

This introduces a new problem. Since Jesus warned his first century audience about the coming destruction of the Temple, when he said "you" he was referring to them. So are you saying that some of the occurrences of "you" in the Olivet Discourse were directed at his first century audience, but others were not?

[noble]

Are you getting my meaning folks?

Noble, you started that silly "district of Judea" argument not me, I just refuted your silly argument with historical facts, so now its "forget the Judea part" EH? And what do you mean "it has nothing to do with what your asking me?" It had everything to do with what you asked me, but since I refuted it, now it doesn't?

See what I mean folks? This is why I don't wish to "debate" this gentleman any longer. I'm tired of his repeating and twisting things so--

LAST TIME!---it seems you enjoy riding the merry-go-round, but as for myself, I don't.

Twospirits

You would think that pointing out that there is no Judea today would make you stop and think, but you just come up with a story to write it all off. SO... we forget the Judea part and move to the fact that there is a flight of the people. SO...

In Matthew 24 did Jesus tell His friends to flee when they saw the abomination or not? This isn't rocket surgery, the answer should be quite easy!

noble