The "ye" principle, this generation, & Mt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 01-24-2012, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by noble

Yes. Basically the only way that all three writers can be correct in how they state the question and how they include certain 'things' in the answer is if the end and the coming are 'things' connected to the destruction.

noble

Yes, that how it seems to me too. And the Preterist interpretation tightly coheres with all the time statements throughtout the NT, especially in Revelation which was given to warn about things "which must quickly come to pass ... for the time is at hand." The Preterist position has an natural coherence whereas the Futurists are forced to explain away not only "quickly come to pass" and "for the time is hand" but also the fact that they confirm each other. It's a threefold cord that is not easily broken.

**noble** · 01-24-2012, 01:39 PM

Hi Twospirits;

Noble, do I have to remind you again that we hashed all this out at Carm on the preterist forum, and got nowhere. So I told you I was getting off that merry-go-round with you, for it would only go on ad infinitum. I believe there comes a time when its time to move on and agree to disagree.

I hope you come to understand how adamant I am about people promoting a false doctrine. You are working very hard to get some quotes from a heavenly based event as seen in John's vision to compare to a limited history. In doing so you feel it is fine to ignore the easy to interpret, easy to understand, verses of the gospel and others. You are trying to justify ignoring important verses, some from Jesus Christ Himself.

So I'll ask you again:

In Matthew 24, when the people, the friends of Jesus, see the abomination they are told to flee from Judea, right?

noble

**noble** · 01-24-2012, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by RAM

Yes, that how it seems to me too. And the Preterist interpretation tightly coheres with all the time statements throughtout the NT, especially in Revelation which was given to warn about things "which must quickly come to pass ... for the time is at hand." The Preterist position has an natural coherence whereas the Futurists are forced to explain away not only "quickly come to pass" and "for the time is hand" but also the fact that they confirm each other. It's a threefold cord that is not easily broken.

I don't consider that I can qualify myself as a card carrying full preterists, but I sure agree with a lot of their ideas. I have this silly idea that I personally will be judged and raised to eternal life or condemned at the time of my death. I get that from the bible and an 'sorta NDE' experience. Couldn't prove a bit of it, but on faith.......

noble

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 01-24-2012, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by noble

I don't consider that I can qualify myself as a card carrying full preterists, but I sure agree with a lot of their ideas. I have this silly idea that I personally will be judged and raised to eternal life or condemned at the time of my death. I get that from the bible and an 'sorta NDE' experience. Couldn't prove a bit of it, but on faith.......

noble

In my studies of eschatology, I have found Preterism to be the only viable possibility. But it has problems too, so I now have concluded that Biblical eschatology is logically incoherent. Preterism is still the best fit, but there are other statements in the Bible that require too much "interpretational gymnastics" to be believable. It's more sensible to simply accept the fact that the Bible is not fully coherent. Indeed, it wouldn't really matter if there is some "ultimate consistency" in the Bible since in practice (over a period of 2000 years) it has proven to be indeceipherable.

When I was a Christian I also concluded that judgment probably happened at the point of death of each individual.

**Twospirits** · 01-24-2012, 03:12 PM

noble wrote,

So I'll ask you again:

In Matthew 24, when the people, the friends of Jesus, see the abomination they are told to flee from Judea, right?

Readers, this has been answered at the Carm site. Here is the discussion that occurred about the above question from the Carm site thread 'Who is He in Daniel 9:27' http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...in-Daniel-9-27

In Post #535 noble wrote,

I see you acknowledge that people fled from Judea in the rebellion of 66-70 AD. That is what the bible said and was specific about JUDEA. Judea ceased to exist in 70 AD so you can't flee from Judea now. There is no Holy Place for a soldier to exalt from either and there hasn't been since 70 AD.

At this point in the 'debate' (if you want to call it that), I was so fed up with his ridiculous answers that I wrote in post #536:

Folks, this shows the desperation a person will go to in defending their position when all they can come up with is an answer like this. I'm sorry, but this is pathetic! Noble says that Judea ceased to exist in 70 A.D., so one can NO LONGER FLEE FROM JUDEA. Can you believe this?? Noble is saying the 'land,' the 'territory' called Judea does not exist today! Yet, we can look at any map of Israel and we can see it is still there, though under a different name. Judea and Samaria are part of the territory known today as Israel and certainly exists!!

And another thing, those living in the territories of what was once called Judea can certainly "flee to the mountains" at the fulfillment of the prophecy!

In answer to my post Noble wrote in post #540:

Yes, Judea ceased to exist as a district in 70 AD so it has not been possible to flee from Judea since the people DID flee from Judea just before the rebellion of 66-70 AD.

Nobody can be in Judea anymore becauise there is NO Judea. SImple!

I am saying that the district of Judea does not exist anymore and it doesn't so you can not flee from a district that does not exist.

I answered this in post #544:

noble wrote,

So then Jesus who cannot lie, would say 'FLEE FROM ISRAEL' wouldn't He? BUT Jesus did NOT say flee from Isreal , He said flee from Judea BECAUSE there was a Judea to flee from when the fleeing had to be done!

I replied,

No, Jesus would not call it by any other name no matter who ruled over it through the centuries, it was always called Judea. Jesus called it Judea because the territory has always been called that until the recent Palistinian-Israeli conflict:

'The mountains of Judea are first named in the Book of Joshua, in the account of the conquering of Canaan by the Israelites during the creation of the Land of Israel. From that time to the present, more than 3,000 years, the name Judea has been consistently used to describe the territory from Jerusalem south along the Judean mountain ridge line, extending east from the mountains down to the Dead Sea.

Judea and Samaria have been known by these names for unbroken centuries, and were registered as such on official documents and maps, by international institutions and in authoritative reference books right up to about 1950. When the correct names became a problem for Palestinian Arabs trying to make their newly-minted claim on the land, it somehow became 'politically correct' to use 'West Bank' or 'occupied territories' instead of the historically accurate names Judea and Samaria.'

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ear...ea_samaria.php

So, those living in the territories of 'biblical Judea' can certainly "flee to the mountains" at the fulfillment of the prophecy and Christ's prophetic words hold true.

noble wrote,

Now can things get stupider than this? I don't think so! How in blazes would the people in Judea SEE an abomination within the body opf Christ? Would it be kinda like a protestant looking at a group of Catholics or what?

I replied,

Did you forget there is more to the prophecy? Did you forget the beast? The beast causes the desolation. He causes the falling away, he causes the persecution of saints, he causes violence, destruction and death in many places of the world. The beast and the false prophet are the cause of the desolation and the cause of the judgments of God to come upon them.

He continued in giving immature silly answers with no sources, historical evidence, etc. when he couldn't refute me till I got fed up with it. In short, it was posts like this that occurred throughout our 'debate' that caused me to end discussions with him.

Twospirits

**Edward Goodie** · 01-24-2012, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Twospirits

We can get an understanding of what the disciples thought as well as the thoughts of others as we read prophetic prophecy.

Gen. 49:1, 'And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.'

Did these things befall Jacob's sons in this/their generation? No, and concerning Jacob's son Judah, this wasn't fulfilled till Christ's first Advent well over 1800 years later.

Gen. 50:24, 'And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.'

Did Joseph's brothers leave Egypt and enter the promised land in this/their generation? No, this wasn't fulfilled until hundreds of years later.

Deut. 28:36, 'The Lord shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.'

Was this fulfilled in this/their generation? No, it was hundreds of years before they had a king over them and this prophecy was fulfilled. They had long since died.

So when we follow this principle of God's Word and read such passages as Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 we clearly see that the 'you' Jesus is speaking to is defined by whichever generation would be alive when these 'prophetic events would come to pass.' It is not confined to the apostles and disciples of that day anymore than the prophecies that were spoken to the immediate audience and generations of Old Testament past times. I believe the ancient Israelites/Jews came to understand this prophetic principle inherent throughout the scriptures. So I guess that would make all the Jews of old, as well as myself- delusional.

Twospirits

Is there a particular reason why you would respond here and not under the appropriate post?

What you forget (?) to consider is the immediate context of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. It was the lead in for all three events. It was regarding the destruction of the temple.

What you also forget is all those other verses that speak of "this generation" that Jesus Christ talked about PRIOR to these Olivet discourses. These disciples would have been well-versed as to which generation Christ was talking about. But this you ignore...

There is so much first century generation context available it is almost sickening that you can't see it...and then when the apostles (James, John, Peter - 3 of the original recipients from that private conversation with Jesus start REPEATING the imminence...well...you just won't believe it. Futurists like yourself spend so much time and energy trying to explain away the imminence...what a fruitless pursuit. Its actually kind of funny really. The futurists today in our generation speak of the same signs in Matthew 24 and say it is near (just like it was in the Gospels and epistles) and we are supposed to believe it is OUR GENERATION? Give me a break. It MUST mean another 2,000 years. right? This is the kind of silliness that pervades futurist thought. Near is supposed to mean near for us but not to the ones who were originally told...ya, right!

BTW, the context for Genesis 49 is the last days. Events far in the future.
In regard to Genesis 50, Moses had no problem understanding the original prophecy as being to the children of Israel (Exodus 13:19)
In regard to Deut 28, let's not forget that it starts out as "the people of the Lord thy God" - the covenant people. The blessings and cursing chapter

Deuteronomy 27:9 - And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the LORD thy God.

Do you really believe these individuals thought it would be them? Really? And this is the difference between the Gospel accounts...those four individuals CONTINUED to preach the same imminence Christ taught them. Perhaps you have heard of Peter's words when he said, "The end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7). I guess Peter lied according to you view of all things...

**noble** · 01-24-2012, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by RAM

In my studies of eschatology, I have found Preterism to be the only viable possibility. But it has problems too, so I now have concluded that Biblical eschatology is logically incoherent. Preterism is still the best fit, but there are other statements in the Bible that require too much "interpretational gymnastics" to be believable. It's more sensible to simply accept the fact that the Bible is not fully coherent. Indeed, it wouldn't really matter if there is some "ultimate consistency" in the Bible since in practice (over a period of 2000 years) it has proven to be indeceipherable.

When I was a Christian I also concluded that judgment probably happened at the point of death of each individual.

I won't argue with any of that, but I'm clinging to the hope that the guys who wrote the book are right.

noble

**noble** · 01-24-2012, 08:01 PM

Hi Twospirits;

Readers, this has been answered at the Carm site. Here is the discussion that occurred about the above question from the Carm site thread 'Who is He in Daniel 9:27' http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...in-Daniel-9-27

Yes, I couldn't get you to stick to the verses there either, but I am forever hopeful. SO:

In Matthew 24, when the people, the friends of Jesus, see the abomination they are told to flee from Judea, right?

noble

**Twospirits** · 01-25-2012, 07:57 AM

noble wrote,

Yes, I couldn't get you to stick to the verses there either, but I am forever hopeful. SO:

In Matthew 24, when the people, the friends of Jesus, see the abomination they are told to flee from Judea, right?

Wrong noble, your strategy won't work, the verses were given and discussed. Anyone who would take a bit of time to read your answers to my posts at the Carm link I gave http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...in-Daniel-9-27 would see why I decided to end 'debating' with you. The majority of your posts in answer to the context of my posts were evasive, silly, repetitive, immature, nearly devoid of historical evidence, no sources given, etc. Throughout, you only repeated and brought up in that 'debate' passages of scripture you felt comfortable with in the hopes of my continuing to 'debate' with you. A good case in point is like what you are attempting to do here as seen above. But I have shown that this has already been discussed so the answers would be no different. So unless I'm wrong it seems you enjoy riding the merry-go-round, but as for myself, I don't.

Twospirits

**noble** · 01-25-2012, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Twospirits

Wrong noble, your strategy won't work, the verses were given and discussed. Anyone who would take a bit of time to read your answers to my posts at the Carm link I gave http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...in-Daniel-9-27 would see why I decided to end 'debating' with you. The majority of your posts in answer to the context of my posts were evasive, silly, repetitive, immature, nearly devoid of historical evidence, no sources given, etc. Throughout, you only repeated and brought up in that 'debate' passages of scripture you felt comfortable with in the hopes of my continuing to 'debate' with you. A good case in point is like what you are attempting to do here as seen above. But I have shown that this has already been discussed so the answers would be no different. So unless I'm wrong it seems you enjoy riding the merry-go-round, but as for myself, I don't.

Twospirits

You have to cling to your old argument that there remains a district named Judea or at least there was such a district when Jesus said it. That has nothing to do with what I am asking you. I am asking you here if there is a flight of the people (forget the Judea part) when they see the abomination in Matthew 24.

You and I both know why you can't/won't /don't answer that don't we?

So again, is there a flight of the people after they see the abomination?

noble