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  1. #111
    TheForgiven wrote,


    You say Adam would have physically died anyway even if he didn't sin. Well if death was in existence before the fall, why did God curse Adam and Eve, and the creation after he sinned? The world was not created with the curse already let loose, it was cursed “after” Adam sinned.

    He did not curse them from eternal life; he cursed them from His presence, and they were forced to work the field (man), and endured painful child labor (women). But to assume that they had eternal life from the start, until the fall, cannot be supported directly from the text. As I explained in my previous post, Paul in the letter to the Romans, explained how death reigned because of sin, and how Jesus (the reversal of that) caused life to reign because of righteousness; Adam gave birth to sin, and Jesus gave birth to righteousness.
    God did not curse them from his presence, by their sin came the curse of pain and death and the loss of eternal life. If they had not sinned, they would have had access to the tree of life (Gen. 3:22) and would have had eternal life and would not have died. The last Adam, Christ would reverse the curse through his death and resurrection.

    It is not clear by any means. If we are to consider ourselves dead to sin, but alive to Christ and yet we have not yet been risen, then what was made alive? Our feet and toes?
    What was made alive through Christ was the promise of eternal life through resurrection.

    Now I agree with you on 1 Corinthians 15 in speaking of the resurrection. Where we differ in that passage is that you believe Paul is claiming that our physical earthly bodies must be resurrected before death can be defeated. Yet Paul states that what is sown, is not what is risen as though it were the body to be at the resurrection. Our bodies return to dust, so we are given new bodies.
    In those passages Paul is speaking of the end, and that end brings about Christ's coming and with these events the general resurrection occurs, not an individual resurrection. This is the time that sin and death is defeated, for as other passages show, Christ's coming also brings about the judgment on all the ungodly. This in turn brings about the restoration of all things. This is the final phase of Christ reversing the curse brought about by the first Adam in the garden of Eden.

    Finally, Henry’s belief that “the end” means a total destruction of all sinners, rule, and dominion, contradicts Genesis 8, which states that God will never again wipe out all flesh, and that as long as the earth remained, His promise never to again wipe out all flesh stands forever. And shall the world exist forever? According to Psalm 78:68, the earth abides forever, just like the eternal sanctuary He has blessed us with; the eternal temple of God, His Church.
    But know this first--(2 Peter 3:3) ”that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) and saying, where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as (they were) from the beginning of the creation. (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word* (#3056; “logos) of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water; (6) whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (7) “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word* (#3056; “logos) are kept in store, reserved* (#083; “terio”;watched over) unto fire against* (#1519; “eis”; unto) the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. (8) But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day (is) with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise (his coming which brings about these events), as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;----.”

    “Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know (these things) before (beforehand), beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness” (verse 17).

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  2. #112
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    But know this first--(2 Peter 3:3) 'that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) and saying, where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as (they were) from the beginning of the creation. (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word* (#3056; 'logos) of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water; (6) whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (7) 'But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word* (#3056; 'logos) are kept in store, reserved* (#083; 'terio';watched over) unto fire against* (#1519; 'eis'; unto) the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. (8) But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day (is) with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise (his coming which brings about these events), as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;----.'

    'Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know (these things) before (beforehand), beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness' (verse 17).

    God bless---Twospirits
    Well why didn't you just say so. I mean, who in the world would have thought that I (or us Preterists) were scoffing at the Lord's return. Funny thing too because we Preterists do not scoff at the Lord's return, as though He were never coming. We Preterists believe that He kept His promise. It's you Futurists who insist that He has not kept His promised, and so mankind for the past 2000 years have been living in what Futurists call the "last days". Should have been called the last Millenniums.

    Scoffing at the Lord's failure to come? I think not! Yet this is another example of error in Futurist quotes from God's Holy Word. What a total misapplication.

    BTW, you still have not responded to Genesis 8:

    20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, 'I will never again curse the ground for manís sake, although the imagination of manís heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

    22 'While the earth remains,
    Seedtime and harvest,
    Cold and heat,
    Winter and summer,
    And day and night
    Shall not cease.'


    Does that sound like an end of the world to you? Not unless you believe that God breaks His Covenant with mankind.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  3. #113
    TheForgiven wrote,

    Does that sound like an end of the world to you? Not unless you believe that God breaks His Covenant with mankind.
    Believe what you will, but what we find in Genesis 8:20-22 is Godís purpose to save men and God reaffirmed His purpose here. God said he would never again destroy the earth by a flood ( 9:11). The reason for God saying He would never again destroy the earth by a flood, is based upon the nature of man, 'For the intent of manís heart is evil from his youth' (Genesis 8:21). Therefore, the last Adam, Christ would reverse the curse through his death and resurrection.

    Like the Noahic Covenant, those who are under the New Covenant have no need to fear the wrath of God that is coming upon the earth. While the Noahic Covenant guaranteed all flesh that God would never again destroy all life by a flood, the New Covenant assures man that he will not face the outpouring of Godís wrath through other means, such as fire (2 Peter 3:10).

    This covenant will remain in force until the time when our Lord returns to the earth to cleanse it by fire (2 Peter 3:10), the final phase of God's restoration.

    As noted in my previous post: In those passages of 1 Cor 15 Paul is speaking of the end, and that end brings about Christ's coming and with these events the general resurrection occurs, not an individual resurrection. This is the time that sin and death is defeated, for as other passages show, Christ's coming also brings about the judgment on all the ungodly. This in turn brings about the restoration of all things. This is the final phase of Christ reversing the curse brought about by the first Adam in the garden of Eden.

    End of story, believe what you will.

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  4. #114
    (8) But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day (is) with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    I think Peter was giving a inner message to his readers. Just as Davids reign [and day] was 40 yrs from 30 to 70 AD, Christ's DAY was from 40-70 yrs.
    The lord was not slack but was not wishing for any of those temporarily hardened elect remaining in Judea to perish to the Romans, but was long-suffering. Paul and Peter knew that some within Israel were to be made jealous unto emulation by the filling of the spirit in the individuals of the nations as Paul noted in Romans 11 quoting from Deut 32 in Rom 10:19. They would leave Judaism, the sacrifice, rabbi's and high priests for faith in God before the coming of the armies.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 05-18-2011 at 06:20 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Believe what you will, but what we find in Genesis 8:20-22 is God’s purpose to save men and God reaffirmed His purpose here. God said he would never again destroy the earth by a flood ( 9:11). The reason for God saying He would never again destroy the earth by a flood, is based upon the nature of man, “For the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Genesis 8:21). Therefore, the last Adam, Christ would reverse the curse through his death and resurrection.

    Like the Noahic Covenant, those who are under the New Covenant have no need to fear the wrath of God that is coming upon the earth. While the Noahic Covenant guaranteed all flesh that God would never again destroy all life by a flood, the New Covenant assures man that he will not face the outpouring of God’s wrath through other means, such as fire (2 Peter 3:10).

    This covenant will remain in force until the time when our Lord returns to the earth to cleanse it by fire (2 Peter 3:10), the final phase of God's restoration.

    As noted in my previous post: In those passages of 1 Cor 15 Paul is speaking of the end, and that end brings about Christ's coming and with these events the general resurrection occurs, not an individual resurrection. This is the time that sin and death is defeated, for as other passages show, Christ's coming also brings about the judgment on all the ungodly. This in turn brings about the restoration of all things. This is the final phase of Christ reversing the curse brought about by the first Adam in the garden of Eden.

    End of story, believe what you will.

    God bless---Twospirits
    This presupposes a false assumption that God misleads people by mincing words. What you are suggesting is that He merely promised he would never destroy the world again with water, but perhaps will destroy the earth as most Futurists suggest, with fire. But again, this presupposes a God who uses sinful tactics to trick people by mincing words, and that we know He does not do.

    What was the context of Genesis 8? He knows that man is sinful even from his youth, and never again would he:

    1. Curse the ground
    2. destroy all flesh

    because of their sins. And with that, He promises as long as the earth abides, days and nights, and seed time and harvest will not cease [I'll explain this more in detail near the end of this post].

    So are you now suggesting to us that God minced words, and mislead His people by promising merely to never destroy mankind with water? Because in Genesis 8, we do not see the word "water" there. He literally states that He would never again destroy all flesh, even though they are sinners from youth. That would seem outside of His compassion for their sinning even from youth. It's not like God said, "YOU KNOW WHAT? MAN IS SINFUL FROM YOUTH SO I PROMISE NEVER TO DESTROY THEM, EVER AGAIN, WITH WATER.....BUT I'LL DESTROY THEM BY SOME OTHER MEANS BECAUSE OF THEIR SINS FROM YOUTH..." Nope, I don't buy that because the God of heaven is merciful, and loves those whom He created. He is displeased with our behavior, and angry with those who fight against Him or at those who murder His Saints. But even so, despite our short comings, He will never destroy all flesh as He thus promised in Genesis 8. In fact, He loved the world so much, that He gave His only begotten son, so that whom ever believes in Him, should not perish, but have ever lasting life.

    My friend, love and scripture destroys any thought of an ending world you've been teaching, and you have thus been exposed as a teacher contrary to the Word of God. You, like all Futurists, think only of yourselves and of nobody else. It is not the salvation of lost souls whom you wish to save by the gospel. It's the fulfillment of death and destruction based on your eschatology, because to you, Jesus is coming back for you. And you wish and yearn for the world to grow even more sinful, like the John Haggee klan and the falsehood of Glenn Beck, you polluters of God's word crave bad news and disaster because to you, that means Christ is coming back for you. If there is one reason why I despite Futurists, it's that very reason.

    Now about "seed time and harvest", the earth is a field, and a field is used for growing crops; a field is where seeds are planted. The barn is heaven, and that is where the crops are taken. What you are suggesting is that the crops (saved souls) since the days of Adam to your so-called end of the world, will be taken into the barn (heaven) temporarily, until the field (earth) is eventually destroyed. And then the crops in heaven (Barn) will descend to re-inhabit the field (earth). Now speaking from a farmers perspective, do you know of any farmer who takes his crops into the barn, and throws them back into the field? That would be stupid to say the least, yet in a figurative way, that's what you are suggesting. As Genesis 8 declared of God, seed time and harvest shall never cease while the earth remains forever. And as I've shown from the Psalmist, the earth abides forever, as it is eternally established by His Sanctuary. And from a farmers perspective, let us never wish for the planting of seeds to end, nor the harvest of the field to end. This supplies heaven with fresh souls saved, from one new moon, to the next. As Isaiah also states, "and the increase of His government, it shall have no end..." May the Lord's kingdom never cease to increase...Even so! Amen!

    Where would you rather abide eternally? A small globe, or the entire universe known as the heavens?

    Not sure where else to take this discussion as this thread is supposed to be about the "ye" principal.

    At any rate, it is not what I want to believe, it's what I believe the scriptures teaches. Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are clear literal instructions and warnings about the end of the first century biologically Jewish race who crucified the Lord of Hosts. It is not about an ending world as this contradicts Genesis 8, and even 2 Peter who did not say that the entire globe would be destroyed by fire, but that the "elements", that is, the Jewish teachings and their accustom of religion and life, would be destroyed with fire; they awaited a new Heaven and a new Earth (Israel). Notice that Peter mentioned nothing about the "sea".

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 05-18-2011 at 06:37 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #116
    TheForgiven wrote,

    My friend, love and scripture destroys any thought of an ending world you've been teaching, and you have thus been exposed as a teacher contrary to the Word of God. You, like all Futurists, think only of yourselves and of nobody else. It is not the salvation of lost souls whom you wish to save by the gospel. It's the fulfillment of death and destruction based on your eschatology, because to you, Jesus is coming back for you. And you wish and yearn for the world to grow even more sinful, like the John Haggee klan and the falsehood of Glenn Beck, you polluters of God's word crave bad news and disaster because to you, that means Christ is coming back for you. If there is one reason why I despite Futurists, it's that very reason.
    In his article Philip B. Brown said: (see full article here http://www.newwine.org/Articles/Preterism.htm)

    'Under the full preterist system, Satan continually receives souls that God has created and will be eternally tormented in hell. There is no end in sight for this. It could go on throughout eternity. God just continues to create more souls to burn in hell. Satan just keeps laughing all the way to the First National Bank of Hell. And there is no end in sight for this. The world just keeps getting worse and worse.

    Those who Deliberately Forget

    I have had conversations with many full preterists who had a great anger towards the futurist views that Christ will return, especially in our lifetime. Some, but not all, have become mockers or scoffers of those who still hold the futurist belief in the "blessed hope [of] the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (ESV Titus 2:13).

    It strikes me as very interesting that the very things full preterists use to argue their position are the very things 2 Peter 3 argues against. Like the new heavens and the earth being the new covenant. In the very same context where Peter is saying mockers will say Christ is not coming, he argues against their view that the destruction of the heavens and the earth is not literal. I simply cannot ignore the fact that it sounds exactly like what full preterism believe. And I cannot ignore the fact that Peter called it a "deliberate" forgetting, which sounds to me like people who are very knowledgeable of Scripture, and thus are inside the Church. If it were people outside the Church, their forgetting would not be "deliberate." At least that's how it strikes me. It sounds to me like people in the Church who are having an emotional backlash about the return of Christ.

    In my opinion, full preterists are the scoffers of the end times. They not only say, 'Where is this coming.' They deny that the coming will ever happen. To a small degree, there have been scoffers that are not in the Church. But they have been few. Most people outside the church pay little attention to the timing of Christís return. The real scoffers are the full preterists within the Church of this generation. Therefore, full preterists are Christians in the Church who know the Bible, but reinterpret it in a way that 'deliberately forgets' certain fundamental truths of Scripture.

    As Peter prophesied, the full preterists of this generation deliberately forget that the heavens and the earth is a term thatís defined in Genesis 1:1, and that the meaning of that term should remain consistent. They say the old heavens and earth is the old covenant, and that the new heavens and new earth the new covenant. They deliberately forget that when God gave the word for the destruction of his creation in Noahís day, that this exact same word will destroy the creation by fire. The destruction by water was literal. But they say the literal creation of Genesis will never be literally destroyed by fire, even though itís the exact same word. The full preterists want everything to go on as it has since the beginning of creation. In other words, they say the Bible is completely fulfilled, so that everything will continue as it has since the beginning of the creation.

    Genesis 1:1 clearly establishes the heavens and the earth as being Godís Creation. Just because Isaiah may have used it figuratively in poetry, does not mean that Peter was using it figuratively. Peter was going out of his way make his words be literal. Peter was not writing poetry like Isaiah. He is comparing the destruction of the heavens and earth with the literal destruction of the earth by water at the Great Flood. The destruction by water was literal. And thus the destruction by fire is also literal. Peter even says that the destruction of the heavens and earth by fire is with the 'same word' as the destruction earth by water. Full preterists 'deliberately forget' by saying that while the destruction by water may have been literal, the destruction by fire is only a new age. Anyone who is truly honest with Scripture knows that this is not what Peter was saying. Peter was talking about 'scoffers' who would come in the last days and claim that Christ will not return. That is exactly what the full preterists are doing today. The full preterists have become their own worst nightmare.'

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  7. #117
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    Twospirits posted:
    In his article Philip B. Brown said: (see full article here http://www.newwine.org/Articles/Preterism.htm)

    “Under the full preterist system, Satan continually receives souls that God has created and will be eternally tormented in hell. There is no end in sight for this. It could go on throughout eternity. God just continues to create more souls to burn in hell. Satan just keeps laughing all the way to the First National Bank of Hell. And there is no end in sight for this. The world just keeps getting worse and worse.
    Gross misrepresentation! Caricature! Satan is in the lake of fire and has had no influence on the world for ages. He is tormented himself both now and forever and is "laughing" about nothing at all.

    David said that God's covenant of salvation is confirmed "forever" and for "a thousand generations."

    8 He remembers His covenant forever,
    The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
    9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
    And His oath to Isaac,
    10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
    To Israel as an everlasting covenant,


    Psalm 105:8-10
    If Twospirits is the literalist he claims he is, then he would realize that we have only just begun to realize God's covenant of salvation. We haven't even scratched the surface of the fulfillment of "a thousand generations" (forever).

    Twospirits leaves out the fact that many Preterists are annihilationists and do not believe that people will be eternally tormented. He also leaves out the fact that other Preterists believe that wicked men will suffer a punishment that will end in annihilation.

    KJ
    Last edited by Kangaroo Jack; 05-19-2011 at 01:45 PM.

  8. #118
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    Twospirits said:
    As Peter prophesied, the full preterists of this generation deliberately forget that the heavens and the earth is a term thatís defined in Genesis 1:1, and that the meaning of that term should remain consistent. They say the old heavens and earth is the old covenant, and that the new heavens and new earth the new covenant. They deliberately forget that when God gave the word for the destruction of his creation in Noahís day, that this exact same word will destroy the creation by fire. The destruction by water was literal. But they say the literal creation of Genesis will never be literally destroyed by fire, even though itís the exact same word. The full preterists want everything to go on as it has since the beginning of creation. In other words, they say the Bible is completely fulfilled, so that everything will continue as it has since the beginning of the creation.
    Yet even some eminent Futurists have said that the old heaven and earth is the old covenant and the new heaven and earth is the new covenant.

    Charles Spurgeon:

    "Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Stud...rgeon_c-h.html
    John Owen:

    4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Stud...owen-john.html
    Note that John Owen was a futurist. He said that the destruction of the heavens and earth in 2 Peter is NOT a reference to the final judgment.

    KJ

  9. #119
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    As Peter prophesied, the full preterists of this generation deliberately forget that the heavens and the earth is a term thatís defined in Genesis 1:1, and that the meaning of that term should remain consistent. They say the old heavens and earth is the old covenant, and that the new heavens and new earth the new covenant. They deliberately forget that when God gave the word for the destruction of his creation in Noahís day, that this exact same word will destroy the creation by fire. The destruction by water was literal. But they say the literal creation of Genesis will never be literally destroyed by fire, even though itís the exact same word. The full preterists want everything to go on as it has since the beginning of creation. In other words, they say the Bible is completely fulfilled, so that everything will continue as it has since the beginning of the creation.
    Why should we believe that the literal creation of the entire globe and all of humanity (minus the so called Raptured Christians) will be completely killed? God promised in Genesis chapter 8 that He would never destroy all flesh again, nor curse the ground, merely because of mans sins. If God felt the way about sinners as YOU DO, then all of us would be damned to the fiery pits of hell. But you see; God is above mere men like you, who look for nothing but death, destruction, and chaos. You have no light, no love, and no grace. Your mind is filled with lies, poorly constructed theories, and a constant desire to misquote God's Holy word.

    And claiming that Peter Prophesied about Preterists, as though we mock the return of Jesus, is a lie. I've already corrected you on this, but you ignored it completely, like you do everything else. Preterists are not the ones mocking the coming of Jesus; we acknowledge it, believe in it, and accept it. It is the Futurists who mock the return of Jesus, always asking, "when did we see His return? When did the mountains crumble, and the valleys split? All things have continued since the fathers have fallen asleep...." That's what Futurists are asking all the time towards Preterists.

    Finally, if God said that He would never destroy all flesh again despite their sins from youth, then believe in His word my friend. You can count on it.

    As the Psalmist said, this globe will live on forever, and ever. And if your concerns is that hell is running out of space, that just goes to show you the problem with your thinking my friend. If heaven is span-less, what makes you think Hell isn't?

    God bless.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  10. #120
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    Theforgiven wrote:
    Why should we believe that the literal creation of the entire globe and all of humanity (minus the so called Raptured Christians) will be completely killed? God promised in Genesis chapter 8 that He would never destroy all flesh again, nor curse the ground, merely because of mans sins. If God felt the way about sinners as YOU DO, then all of us would be damned to the fiery pits of hell. But you see; God is above mere men like you, who look for nothing but death, destruction, and chaos. You have no light, no love, and no grace. Your mind is filled with lies, poorly constructed theories, and a constant desire to misquote God's Holy word.
    Amen brother!

    KJ

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