The "ye" principle, this generation, & Mt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.

[Edward Goodie]

Let's look into the biblical implictions of believing one way or the other.

In Matthew 24, when the people, the friends of Jesus, see the abomination they are told to flee from Judea, right?

noble

Hey there, Noble...what brings you here to this forum?

SimpleSinner/Mellontes says hi (me).

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Let's look into the biblical implictions of believing one way or the other.

In Matthew 24, when the people, the friends of Jesus, see the abomination they are told to flee from Judea, right?

noble

And let's not forget that Jesus began his discourse with the statement that the Temple would be destroyed. His prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, during the lifetime of the generation to whom he spoke, exactly as he predicted when he said "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." I don't see how there could be any confusion over this at all. It is one of the most firmly established facts in the entire NT.

[Edward Goodie]

Yes, we did discuss that, and I tried to convey to you in various ways by using the "this generation" the "you principle" seen in prophetic scripture that though the prophecy may be spoken and given to some at a particular time (generation), the fulfillment applies to the generation onto whom the prophecy would be fulfilled. Now concerning Mark 13:29-30, Jesus was NOT just talking to these four men. Jesus said 'And what I say (the prophecy) unto YOU I say unto ALL, Watch' (Mark 13:37).

Twospirits

But surely, twospirits, you must see that the "all" from Mark 13:37 is still in regard to the specific focus of "this generation" stated 7 verses earlier...

Those four disciples in private conversation with Jesus heard Him tell them that these things would occur in "this generation." If you were one of those four disciples, what generation would you think He was talking about - a generation thousands of years away or THEIR generation? Do not forget that this is an appointed time. You obviously have overlooked how Christ PUBLICLY described their generation BEFOREHAND. It would be foolishness to think that these four disciples were not aware of what Jesus had said about their (this) generation:

Matthew 11:16 - "But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,

Matthew 12:39 - But he answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Matthew 12:45 - Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation."

Matthew 16:4 - An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So he left them and departed.

Matthew 17:17 - And Jesus answered, "O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me."

Mark 8:12 - And he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, "Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly, I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation."

Mark 8:38 - For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Mark 9:19 - And he answered them, "O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me."

Luke 7:31 - "To what then shall I compare the people of this generation, and what are they like?

Luke 9:41 - Jesus answered, "O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here."

Luke 11:29 - When the crowds were increasing, he began to say, "This generation is an evil generation. It seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.

Luke 11:30 - For as Jonah became a sign to the people of Nineveh, so will the Son of Man be to this generation.

Luke 11:50 - so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation,

Luke 11:51 - from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.

Luke 17:25 - But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Acts 2:40 - And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

To think that those four disciples would have considered any other generation than their own 1st century generation would be delusional

[Edward Goodie]

Hi Brother Les;

Thank you.

Yes, Jesus meant it for those who were in front of Him as well, as I see it. However, what He said is for all of the YOU's that follow Peter , wouldn't you think? Like does Jesus not have a room prepared for you and I?

Maybe there is a better example for me to use here alright???????

noble

The place Jesus was preparing was Calvary and its inauguration of the new covenant temple - his abode in us and our abode in Him...it has absolutely nothing to do with "physical" mansions in heaven! A little type/shadow knowledge is essential here:

1 Kings 6:1-10 – And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD. 2 And the house which king Solomon built for the LORD, the length thereof was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof twenty cubits, and the height thereof thirty cubits. 3 And the porch before the temple of the house, twenty cubits was the length thereof, according to the breadth of the house; and ten cubits was the breadth thereof before the house. 4 And for the house he made windows of narrow lights. 5 And against the wall of the house he built chambers round about, against the walls of the house round about, both of the temple and of the oracle: and he made chambers round about: 6 The nethermost chamber was five cubits broad, and the middle was six cubits broad, and the third was seven cubits broad: for without in the wall of the house he made narrowed rests round about, that the beams should not be fastened in the walls of the house. 7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building. 8 The door for the middle chamber was in the right side of the house: and they went up with winding stairs into the middle chamber, and out of the middle into the third. 9 So he built the house, and finished it; and covered the house with beams and boards of cedar. 10 And then he built chambers against all the house, five cubits high: and they rested on the house with timber of cedar.

There were physical dwelling places around the physical temple.

The anti-type fulfillment are the spiritual dwelling places in the temple of Jesus Christ. He is the Cornerstone of that temple and we are the lively stones of that temple. Mansion simply means abode.

[Twospirits]

Edward Goodie wrote,

To think that those four disciples would have considered any other generation than their own 1st century generation would be delusional

We can get an understanding of what the disciples thought as well as the thoughts of others as we read prophetic prophecy.

Gen. 49:1, 'And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.'

Did these things befall Jacob's sons in this/their generation? No, and concerning Jacob's son Judah, this wasn't fulfilled till Christ's first Advent well over 1800 years later.

Gen. 50:24, 'And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.'

Did Joseph's brothers leave Egypt and enter the promised land in this/their generation? No, this wasn't fulfilled until hundreds of years later.

Deut. 28:36, 'The Lord shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.'

Was this fulfilled in this/their generation? No, it was hundreds of years before they had a king over them and this prophecy was fulfilled. They had long since died.

So when we follow this principle of God's Word and read such passages as Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 we clearly see that the 'you' Jesus is speaking to is defined by whichever generation would be alive when these 'prophetic events would come to pass.' It is not confined to the apostles and disciples of that day anymore than the prophecies that were spoken to the immediate audience and generations of Old Testament past times. I believe the ancient Israelites/Jews came to understand this prophetic principle inherent throughout the scriptures. So I guess that would make all the Jews of old, as well as myself- delusional.

Twospirits

[Twospirits]

noble wrote,

Let's look into the biblical implictions of believing one way or the other.

In Matthew 24, when the people, the friends of Jesus, see the abomination they are told to flee from Judea, right?

Noble, do I have to remind you again that we hashed all this out at Carm on the preterist forum, and got nowhere. So I told you I was getting off that merry-go-round with you, for it would only go on ad infinitum. I believe there comes a time when its time to move on and agree to disagree.

For the readers who may wish to read, 'the fleeing from Judea discussion' between noble and Twospirits can be seen here http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...el-9-27/page54 and here http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...el-9-27/page55

Here is the link to the thread 'Who is He in Daniel 9:27' where other topics on eschatology were discussed http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...in-Daniel-9-27

Twospirits

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Noble, do I have to remind you again that we hashed all this out at Carm on the preterist forum, and got nowhere. So I told you I was getting off that merry-go-round with you, for it would only go on ad infinitum. I believe there comes a time when its time to move on and agree to disagree.

For the readers who may wish to read, 'the fleeing from Judea discussion' between noble and Twospirits can be seen here http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...el-9-27/page54 and here http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...el-9-27/page55

Here is the link to the thread 'Who is He in Daniel 9:27' where other topics on eschatology were discussed http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...in-Daniel-9-27

Twospirits

That "merry go round" goes round the fixed pole of the plain Preterist truth of Scripture. As long as the plain meaning of Scripture is denied, the arguments have nowhere to go but "round and round."

The solution is exceedingly simple. Begin with the main and plain things that are confirmed by many witnesses. For example, the unity of the three synoptic accounts of the Olivet Discourse prove that Christ was talking about the events leading up to and culminating in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. That's how he opened the discourse, and there is no logically coherent way to break it apart to make room for a futurist interpretation.

That's about all there is too it.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The place Jesus was preparing was Calvary and its inauguration of the new covenant temple - his abode in us and our abode in Him...it has absolutely nothing to do with "physical" mansions in heaven! A little type/shadow knowledge is essential here:

1 Kings 6:1-10 – And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD. 2 And the house which king Solomon built for the LORD, the length thereof was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof twenty cubits, and the height thereof thirty cubits. 3 And the porch before the temple of the house, twenty cubits was the length thereof, according to the breadth of the house; and ten cubits was the breadth thereof before the house. 4 And for the house he made windows of narrow lights. 5 And against the wall of the house he built chambers round about, against the walls of the house round about, both of the temple and of the oracle: and he made chambers round about: 6 The nethermost chamber was five cubits broad, and the middle was six cubits broad, and the third was seven cubits broad: for without in the wall of the house he made narrowed rests round about, that the beams should not be fastened in the walls of the house. 7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building. 8 The door for the middle chamber was in the right side of the house: and they went up with winding stairs into the middle chamber, and out of the middle into the third. 9 So he built the house, and finished it; and covered the house with beams and boards of cedar. 10 And then he built chambers against all the house, five cubits high: and they rested on the house with timber of cedar.

There were physical dwelling places around the physical temple.

The anti-type fulfillment are the spiritual dwelling places in the temple of Jesus Christ. He is the Cornerstone of that temple and we are the lively stones of that temple. Mansion simply means abode.

Very well stated! The text of John 14 is extremely clear on this point. The same word translated as "mansions" (mone, John 14:3, KJV) is later translated as "abode" in vs 23 where it obviously refers to the believer:

KJV John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode (mone) with him.

I explained all this in detail in my article An Exegesis of John 14. The Futurist interpretation of John 14 is a hermeneutical travesty.

[noble]

Hey there, Noble...what brings you here to this forum?

SimpleSinner/Mellontes says hi (me).

Hi how are ya? I'm here just following up on a link from another forum. Who knows, I just might pay some money and stay here!

noble

[noble]

And let's not forget that Jesus began his discourse with the statement that the Temple would be destroyed. His prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, during the lifetime of the generation to whom he spoke, exactly as he predicted when he said "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." I don't see how there could be any confusion over this at all. It is one of the most firmly established facts in the entire NT.

Yes. Basically the only way that all three writers can be correct in how they state the question and how they include certain 'things' in the answer is if the end and the coming are 'things' connected to the destruction.

noble