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  1. #121
    TheForgiven wrote,

    God is above mere men like you, who look for nothing but death, destruction, and chaos. You have no light, no love, and no grace. Your mind is filled with lies, poorly constructed theories, and a constant desire to misquote God's Holy word.
    You do not realize how true your statement points to the very paradigm you hold. That death, destruction and chaos will remain prevalent on this earth for all eternity; a world without end. A world with little or no light, no love, no grace. A world filled with lies whose only desire is to completely destroy God's word. This is the doctrine that full preterism advocates, what you see is what you get---for eternity.

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    You do not realize how true your statement points to the very paradigm you hold. That death, destruction and chaos will remain prevalent on this earth for all eternity; a world without end. A world with little or no light, no love, no grace. A world filled with lies whose only desire is to completely destroy God's word. This is the doctrine that full preterism advocates, what you see is what you get---for eternity.

    God bless---Twospirits
    Two problems:

    1) Despite all the current problems, the world is an amazingly better place than at any time in history, and there is no reason to believe it will not continue to improve as people learn the ways of God. In my life (the only life I know) I do not experience a world of "death, destruction, and chaos." On the contrary, my 51 years of life are marked by 99% joy, beauty, and peace with only minor interruptions of trauma.

    2) In as much as the Futurist doctrine teaches an eternal conscious torment in Hell, it predicts an INFINITE amount of suffering perpetually inflicted upon souls by God Himself for eternity. Such evil is a million times worse than the relatively minor amount of "death, destruction, and chaos" that is mingled with the joys found in this life.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    You do not realize how true your statement points to the very paradigm you hold. That death, destruction and chaos will remain prevalent on this earth for all eternity; a world without end. A world with little or no light, no love, no grace. A world filled with lies whose only desire is to completely destroy God's word. This is the doctrine that full preterism advocates, what you see is what you get---for eternity.

    God bless---Twospirits
    Fictional Story [THIS IS NOT A TRUE ACCOUNT]

    Jesus walks into the temple as he listens to some of the Scribes chanting passages from the Prophets. Each offers their "Amen" and Christ Himself nods in agreement. A speaker begins to chant, "And God will come to destroy all the sinners and avenge His Holiness upon them!" Jesus replies, "No!" Stunned and surprised, the speaker continues, "And God will come to destroy the Gentiles, and gives us back our freedom! Again, Jesus replies, "NO!" Still ignoring Jesus, the speaker finally says, "One day, the God of heaven will show no mercy to those who betray Him and His people!" And once again, Jesus replies, "NO!" Jesus then begins to say, "Do not wish for revenge upon your enemies. He who wishes revenge is as guilty as those who assault or persecute you. Show love to those who hate you! For if you love only those who love you, then what reward have you? And show mercy to those who curse you, or despise you, for such is the God of heaven who showed mercy to you!"

    Although this story is fictional, this holds true to those of God's calling and kingdom. Children of God are not to wish for days of wrath, vengeance, and a merciless God upon the world. Children of God are to display grace, love, and faithfulness. None of us are perfect, but that is even more reason to display acts of kindness, since we too are imperfect. So why would we wish and pray for God to rain wrath and destruction upon the entire world, when we ourselves deserve the same judgment? Are we not sinners? Are we not worthy of damnation as the rest? Sure we are forgiven, but even while abiding in His Kingdom, our sins still exist. As John says, "If we say we have no sin, then we are found not having the truth within us [paraphrase]".

    Futurists use disaster and fear tactics to wins crowds. But this is deceiving to say the least. Jesus used love and compassion, and that's what we should follow.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #124
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    I just skimmed through this thread, so if what I am about to say has already been said, please forgive me.

    I, for one, never said that there is nothing in the Bible for us today. There are eternal principles. For example, God said, "You will not kill." Jesus magnified that to include hatred toward your brother.

    The Bible teaches, "love your neighbor as yourself," and "love your enemy." These are eternal principles.

    But, there are things said in the Bible that is only intended for the original audience. For example, Paul told the church at Rome to "greet one another with a holy kiss." Not in this culture and in this society we live in today. If any man tried to kiss me, he might get a fat lip. In our society, a kiss shows sexual attraction, and I am not sexually attracted to any man. I remember, I was at a mall when I saw a woman I knew. All I did was talk to her, and her husband came an punched me in the face - just for talking. And it wasn't frisky talking either. It was just, "How are you?" "What do you think of the weather?" That kind of small talk. And POW - right in the face. I can't imagine what he would have done if I greeted her with a holy kiss. So, greeting one another with a holy kiss is not even close to being an option for today.

    Not once in Genesis chapter 6 did God warn people along the Mississippi River about the flooding going on there now. Not once did He warn the people of Australia about the flooding there this past winter. Genesis 6 was about one flood. So God commanded Noah - and only Noah - to build an ark.

    There are many events in Scripture like the "holy kiss" and the "flood" that were meant for a the specific original audience. I am not saying that we can't learn from those events. We can learn about the nature of God through those events.

    Now, let's get back to prophecy. Let's consider Matthew 24, the darling chapter of the futurists. Not once did Jesus warn the people of Pennsylvania to flee to the mountains. Not once did he warn the people of Japan of the coming earthquakes and tsunami. Matthew 24 localizes the warnings of Christ to Judea, and only Judea. A part of that was the destruction of the temple which occurred in 70AD. And since there is no temple today, Matthew 24 was specific to the time of the original audience. There is nothing in Matthew 24 that is for us today.

    I know that you futurists believe audience relevance is poppycock. I believe I just proved wrong. But, if you can show just one prophetic warning to Pennsylvania, or Tennessee, or California, or any other place that exists today, I would reconsider audience relevance.

    Justice at the expense of the truth is not justice at all.

  5. #125
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
    In our society, a kiss shows sexual attraction, and I am not sexually attracted to any man. I remember, I was at a mall when I saw a woman I knew. All I did was talk to her, and her husband came an punched me in the face - just for talking. And it wasn't frisky talking either. It was just, "How are you?" "What do you think of the weather?" That kind of small talk. And POW - right in the face. I can't imagine what he would have done if I greeted her with a holy kiss.
    Well, I guess your eyes talked also and you did attracted the attention of her husband. You should have offer the other side of your face also and then preach to him! Oh....you should have seized that opportunity and saved a soul! Jesus said,"Matthew 5: 38 'You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also". If you have given her a holy kiss then....well, God Bless You!


    Not once in Genesis chapter 6 did God warn people along the Mississippi River about the flooding going on there now. Not once did He warn the people of Australia about the flooding there this past winter. Genesis 6 was about one flood. So God commanded Noah - and only Noah - to build an ark.

    There are many events in Scripture like the "holy kiss" and the "flood" that were meant for a the specific original audience. I am not saying that we can't learn from those events. We can learn about the nature of God through those events.

    Now, let's get back to prophecy. Let's consider Matthew 24, the darling chapter of the futurists. Not once did Jesus warn the people of Pennsylvania to flee to the mountains. Not once did he warn the people of Japan of the coming earthquakes and tsunami. Matthew 24 localizes the warnings of Christ to Judea, and only Judea. A part of that was the destruction of the temple which occurred in 70AD. And since there is no temple today, Matthew 24 was specific to the time of the original audience. There is nothing in Matthew 24 that is for us today
    .

    I know that you futurists believe audience relevance is poppycock. I believe I just proved wrong. But, if you can show just one prophetic warning to Pennsylvania, or Tennessee, or California, or any other place that exists today, I would reconsider audience relevance.
    Well then, if you believe God is in heaven and reigning, what is He doing? Why didn't He come and help?.....Sleeping and happily watching the world goes by?

    Many Blessings.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #126
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    [QUOTE=CWH;31356]

    Well then, if you believe God is in heaven and reigning, what is He doing? Why didn't He come and help?.....Sleeping and happily watching the world goes by?

    Many Blessings.
    That is the easiest question. "Our God is in Heaven, and He does whatever He pleases." Psalm 115.3. As far as the*particulars are concerned, you will have to ask Him. I am not His press agent. Are you on speaking terms with Him?

    Justice at the expense of the truth is not justice at all.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Fictional Story [THIS IS NOT A TRUE ACCOUNT]

    Jesus walks into the temple as he listens to some of the Scribes chanting passages from the Prophets. Each offers their "Amen" and Christ Himself nods in agreement. A speaker begins to chant, "And God will come to destroy all the sinners and avenge His Holiness upon them!" Jesus replies, "No!" Stunned and surprised, the speaker continues, "And God will come to destroy the Gentiles, and gives us back our freedom! Again, Jesus replies, "NO!" Still ignoring Jesus, the speaker finally says, "One day, the God of heaven will show no mercy to those who betray Him and His people!" And once again, Jesus replies, "NO!" Jesus then begins to say, "Do not wish for revenge upon your enemies. He who wishes revenge is as guilty as those who assault or persecute you. Show love to those who hate you! For if you love only those who love you, then what reward have you? And show mercy to those who curse you, or despise you, for such is the God of heaven who showed mercy to you!"

    Although this story is fictional, this holds true to those of God's calling and kingdom. Children of God are not to wish for days of wrath, vengeance, and a merciless God upon the world. Children of God are to display grace, love, and faithfulness. None of us are perfect, but that is even more reason to display acts of kindness, since we too are imperfect. So why would we wish and pray for God to rain wrath and destruction upon the entire world, when we ourselves deserve the same judgment? Are we not sinners? Are we not worthy of damnation as the rest? Sure we are forgiven, but even while abiding in His Kingdom, our sins still exist. As John says, "If we say we have no sin, then we are found not having the truth within us [paraphrase]".

    Futurists use disaster and fear tactics to wins crowds. But this is deceiving to say the least. Jesus used love and compassion, and that's what we should follow.

    Joe
    You mean God and Jesus did not use disaster and fear tactics to win hearts? Didn't He warned the people they will faced tribulations in Matthew 24? Go and study the Bible again! "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". Is using fear and disaster tactics wrong? Is using such tactics a show of love and compassion as well. Don't the law warn us not to murder or faced severe consequences?...or should the law politely advise us not to murder out of love and compassion? Don't you warn your children not to play with fire out of love and compassion or faced loss of property and life or should you tell your children politely, "Please don't play with fire, children, ok, please....I beg you please, ok?"

    Many Blessings.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    You mean God and Jesus did not use disaster and fear tactics to win hearts? Didn't He warned the people they will faced tribulations in Matthew 24? Go and study the Bible again! "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". Is using fear and disaster tactics wrong? Is using such tactics a show of love and compassion as well. Don't the law warn us not to murder or faced severe consequences?...or should the law politely advise us not to murder out of love and compassion? Don't you warn your children not to play with fire out of love and compassion or faced loss of property and life or should you tell your children politely, "Please don't play with fire, children, ok, please....I beg you please, ok?"

    Many Blessings.
    Actually you may want to read the Bible again yourself. Because you seem to forget that it wasn't the lost or the unsaved souls whom God used fear strategies; it was His elect; His Saints who may have fallen back into sin, that He sometimes used fear tactics, and/or threats of disaster in an attempt to persaude them to return to Him. Jesus did the very same thing; He showed compassion to the lost, but sharp rebuke to those who professed to know God but were in fact worse sinners than those who sinned out of ignorance.

    Look at His reaction to Mary? Did He jump her hind-end and scream at her, threatening her with doomsday threats? No! He showed love and compassion to her.

    An example of this is the story of Jonah. Those were a people who knew God, but lapsed back into sin. He then sent Jonah to preach to them, and warn them that if they did not repent of their back-sliding, then He would send destruction upon them. Of course, they repented, which led to God relenting of His punishment; He spared them. Now here's the funny thing about Jonah. He did all of that work, and wanted to see God judge the inhabitants of Nineveh. And when God relented, Jonah became angry. Sound familiar? Aren't Futurist's angry when they fail to see God's judgments? Rightly did I say that most (not all) Futurists want to see God's judgment and rain of disaster. You guys are obsessed with disaster.

    Therefore, I encourage you to do more than just read God's word; you need to study it correctly my friend because you're missing out on a lot. Besides, I've never witnessed a Futurist who demonstrated acts of love and kindness to those who need the saving of the soul. Watch their television ministries, and in nearly every service, it's always doom and gloom. This paints such a false message about God, who loved mankind so much that He died for them. This is the highest example of God's love for mankind. But if He has to scare them into loving him, what benefit is that? Yet that's the only message you Futurists are accustomed to providing; "REPENT AND BE SAVED! OR YOU'LL BURN IN HELL!" and again, "THE RETURN OF JESUS CAN HAPPEN ANYTIME NOW; WE'RE IN THE LAST DAYS! DON'T DELAY! BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOW THE LORD, OR YOU'LL MISS OUT ON THE RAPTURE!" DON'T BE LEFT BEHIND!" That's all you really hear from Futurist dominated services.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 05-23-2011 at 04:19 AM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    God did not curse them from his presence, by their sin came the curse of pain and death and the loss of eternal life. If they had not sinned, they would have had access to the tree of life (Gen. 3:22) and would have had eternal life and would not have died. The last Adam, Christ would reverse the curse through his death and resurrection.
    A few questions and thoughts for you to ponder.

    In the day that they sinned, they were to die. This can refer to the exact 24 hour day and also that within their 1000 yr lifespan they would die physically prematurely. [before their 1000 yr day] I think it referred to both.

    It was after the sin that they hid from him in shame and that he expulled them from the Garden. They 'died' from having immediate and instant access to the Father. The promise was of a seed "he" who would reverse the effects of the curse and it would be greater.

    Adam would not have had the indwelling presence of God and His Good Spirit in the way that those born of that Spirit and freedom possess now in their own 'NEW" Garden of fellowship with Him.

    Were Adam and Eve created with procreative organs?
    If they were to intended to live physically forever, along with their offspring and continually to procreate; how long before the Garden would be overpopulated? How long before the earth would be overpopulated?

    Your stating that this was the original intent but that man frustrated God's original good intent.

    In Romans 8:2 Paul says that the Spirit of the life of Christ had set him free [past tense] from the law of sin and death... and yet Paul and all the apostles died physically.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 05-25-2011 at 11:35 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  10. #130
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    Hi Twospirits;

    I think this thread has its roots in a conversation you were having with me on another website.

    According to preterists, these passages, and many more that could be given, when following their audience relevance 'you' and 'this generation' doctrine, the 'prophetic passages' and commandments would no longer be applicable after the 1st century generation ekklesia had passed (70 A.D.). The same would be seen in the Old Covenant, where it would mean that all the prophets who prophesied to the 'contemporary corporate body of Israel,' the prophecies they proclaimed to them would have to be fulfilled 'in their generation,' and no other. Scripture explicitely shows quite the contrary view to their doctrine.
    I want to clarify that the YOU that I was locking in to the generation of Jesus was Mark 13:3:

    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 'Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?'

    Along with Marks words here:

    29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Many verses with the word YOU in them can refer to people over all time such as John 14:

    2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

    IN the above Jesus means all of us not just Peter who was His audience.

    Just wanted to clear that up.

    noble

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