The "ye" principle, this generation, & Mt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.

[Twospirits]

To begin, we must first define the meaning of a 'disciple.'

In Christianity: A disciple is one who follows the teachings or doctrines of a person (Christ) whom he or she considers to be a master or authority.

a. The 12 original followers of Christ.

b. The 70 followers sent forth by Christ. Luke 10:1.

c. Any other professed follower of Christ in His lifetime.

d. Any follower of Christ.

So everything Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit taught the disciples, they were also to teach others who would come to follow Christ. The 'called out,' (the ekklesia) of God.

Before his ascension Jesus said to them, 'Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, (even) unto the end of the age. Amen' (Mt. 28:19-20).

So we see that 'all the things' Jesus (literally and through the Holy Spirit) taught the apostles, they were also to teach other disciples, the 'called out of God,' the body of Christ, for all generations; beginning at Pentecost, unto the end of the age. In turn, the called out disciples of Christ who believed would also receive the Holy Spirit. So when we read the NT, we know the Living Word was not only written 'for' that first generation body of Christ, though it was written 'to' them first, but for future generations who would become a part of the body of Christ as well; unto the end of the age.


This quotation from a book by J. Todd Billings called The Word of God for the People of God: an entryway to the theological interpretation of scripture rather effectively gets to the heart of the dilemma created by readings of the New Testament that insist on the historical contextualization of the texts:

Another misuse of historical reconstruction is when it leaves readers with a sense that the ancient text does not address them, but only addresses the ancient community. On this issue, Christian interpreters need to be clear that we read as part of the one people of God; we are not reading 'other people’s mail.' … When Christians analyze the text, its history, and background, we should not assume that the historical gap between our contemporary horizon and the ancient one is a great canyon to be bridged by clever analogies or parallels. In a very real sense, this gap is bridged by the Spirit—the same Spirit who unites together God’s people culture and time. The books of the Bible are not just 'addressed to' ancient Israel or the early church. Through Scripture, the Spirit addresses all of God’s people, not just the original hearers.

I believe, like this author and others that 'audience relevance' is misapplied to 'prophetic texts' vs. 'historical texts.' Biblical historical texts are non-prophetic writings rightly labeled relevant to their time. There are also non-prophetic 1st century biblical writings to the body of Christ that are spiritually applicable for all generations. The 'you' and 'ye' passages that speak to the assemblies of Christ about spiritual things that concern the saints and are applicable to all generations. Then there are the 'prophetic texts,' that would concern 'we' and 'ye' of the body of Christ and find their fulfillment future and not 'contained' to that particular generation the prophetic texts were written 'to.'

From the Matthew passages we see that the phrase 'this generation' hangs on the implications of the words 'ye' and 'you' in the preceding verses. The preterists insist the 'ye' and 'you' can and does only refer to Jesus' immediate physical audience, specifically the apostles. So they insist that the generation that shall not pass is the generation of the apostles; the 1st generation church. The problem is that they completely fail to understand a simple principle in scripture with regard to 'prophetic passages.' This biblical principle occurs in 'prophetic passages' by which God speaks to an immediate physical audience, such as the apostles (1st generation NC assenbly) or the Israelites of Moses' day (1st generation OC assembly) for example, but is actually addressing 'future unborn generations yet to come.'

This principle is inherent in scripture writing, and seen from the very onset when Moses received the word of God and proclaimed it to the Israelites. The Israelites understood that the words proclaimed to them also applied to their children in every age, and not just their generation.


So when we follow this principle of God's Word and read such passages as Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 we clearly see that the 'ye' and 'you' Jesus is speaking to is defined by whichever generation would be around when these things come to pass. It is not confined to the apostles and disciples of that day anymore than Moses prophecy was confined to the generation of Israelites in their day who were his initial audience to whom his proclamation was given. The Jews of Jesus' day including his apostles were well aware of this biblical principle of the 'ye' and 'you' seen in their historical and prophetic writings. They certainly would not continue to be waiting for the Messiah if this were not the case.

There are many examples of the 'ye' biblical principle that apply to 'generations' beyond the 1st century generation seen in the Gospels and the Epistles of the apostles; prophetic and non-prophetic. Mt. 3:2, '--saying repent 'ye', for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Did the 'ye' to repent only apply to that 1st century generation? Mt. 5:32, 'But I say unto 'you,''--concerning divorce. On oaths, 'you' have heard it said,' Mt. 5: 33-38; Mt. 5:44, 'But I say unto 'you,' love your enemies--.' Mt. 7:1 'Judge not, that 'ye' be not judged.' Are these passages to be seen as only applicable to the 1st century generation only? According to the preterist position, these commandments would no longer be applicable to on-going generations. The 'you,' according to them would only apply to 'this generation' living at that time, being the 1st century hearers.

Acts 2:39, 'For the promise is unto 'you', and to your children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.' (see Acts 2:17). We see it is not just for the generation then living but for on-going generations as well. 1 Cor. 6:19,' What? Know 'ye' not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost---.' 1 Cor. 11:26, 'For as often as 'ye' eat this bread, and drink this cup, 'ye' do show the Lord's death till he come.' 1 Cor. 12:23, 'Now 'ye' are the body of Christ---.' Gal. 3:28-29, '---for 'ye' are all one in Christ Jesus.---then are 'ye' Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.'

According to preterists, these passages, and many more that could be given, when following their audience relevance 'you' and 'this generation' doctrine, the 'prophetic passages' and commandments would no longer be applicable after the 1st century generation ekklesia had passed (70 A.D.). The same would be seen in the Old Covenant, where it would mean that all the prophets who prophesied to the 'contemporary corporate body of Israel,' the prophecies they proclaimed to them would have to be fulfilled 'in their generation,' and no other. Scripture explicitely shows quite the contrary view to their doctrine.

1 Peter 2:9 makes it very clear that the 'ye' biblical prophetic principle applies not only to the immediate generation, but on-going generations as well. 'But 'ye' are a chosen generation*(Greek 'genos'; a family, offspring, 'a race'), a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar (special) people; that 'ye' should show forth the praises of him who hath called 'you' out of darkness into his marvelous light.' The many prophecies spoken of by the Old Covenant prophets didn't occur until hundreds of years later, which contradicts the preterist 'you'/'this generation' audience relevance doctrine. But agrees with the biblical 'you' in 'prophetic passages,' that speak prophetically of 'this generation,'--as being 'this generation whenever it occurs.'

Sorry for the lengthy post.

God bless---Twospirits

[TheForgiven]

I'd say this was indeed, a rather lengthy post to defend the philosophy of "Transcendence". Unfortunately, the text itself does not permit this idealistic approach to scriptural interpretation. Here are a few examples using the phrase "this generation":

Matthew 11:16
“But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions,

Which generation was Christ "likening" to little children sitting in the market place? Perhaps a future generation? Common sense would think that idea to be uncommon.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

Which generation was Christ comparing to the men of Nineveh? A future generation transended from all understanding of this simple text? Of course not; the very generation the text plainly, clearly, and logically shows; the generation He was speaking to. This verse cannot be transended into the future.

Matthew 12:42
The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

Again, like the comparison of His generation to the men of Nineveh, Jesus compares them to the "queen of the south". Or are we to assume that "this generation" is also transcended?

Your position is highly illogically my friend. Why continue to insist on what cannot be proven logically, coherently, nor commonly? Just accept it.....

Joe

[Twospirits]

TheForgiven wrote,

I'd say this was indeed, a rather lengthy post to defend the philosophy of "Transcendence". Unfortunately, the text itself does not permit this idealistic approach to scriptural interpretation. Here are a few examples using the phrase "this generation":

Call it what you will, my rather long post was for the readers to understand how to see and interpret the NT scriptures as it concerns the body of Christ of which every generation is a part of. Sometimes we have no recourse in the matter. Never heard of this philosophy you call “transcendence.” I'll cut right to the chase by giving the main passages that speak of “this generation” minus the Discourse ones, those we'll contend with later.

These are the main passages below where the context shows Jesus was speaking to “ye” of “this generation,” of that 1st century to which they applied to, other than the passages of Mt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32, Jesus' Discourse. These will be discussed later.

Mt. 3:7, But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? This applied to the 1st century.

Mt. 11:16 (Luke 7:31), But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,--This applied to the 1st century.

Mt. 12:39 (Mt. 16:4; Luke 11:29-30), But he answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: This applied to the 1st century.

Mt. 12:41(Luke 11:32), The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. This applied to the 1st century.

Mt. 12:42, The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. This applied to the 1st century.

Mt. 23:36, Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. This applied to the 1st century.

Mark 8:12, And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation. This applied to the 1st century.


Luke 11:50-51, That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. This applied to the 1st century.


Luke 17:25, But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. This applied to the 1st century.


(Mark 8:38; 9:19; Luke 9:41 speaks of a generation of sinful and faithless people).

Your position is highly illogically my friend. Why continue to insist on what cannot be proven logically, coherently, nor commonly? Just accept it.....

So your saying the “ye” passages that speak to the “called out ekklesia” I gave in my opening post were illogical and incoherent to my position? I can't help but say Joe that you are either a very funny man, or you really need to take a course on your hermeneutical approach and interpretation of scripture---

God bless---Twospirits

[Richard Amiel McGough]

This biblical principle occurs in “prophetic passages” by which God speaks to an immediate physical audience, such as the apostles (1st generation NC assenbly) or the Israelites of Moses' day (1st generation OC assembly) for example, but is actually addressing “future unborn generations yet to come.”

Hey there Henry,

Good topic.

Could you cite the OT verses where Moses is clearly speaking to future generations using "ye"? That would be helpful.

Thanks.

Richard

[Tomret]

...From the Matthew passages we see that the phrase 'this generation' hangs on the implications of the words 'ye' and 'you' in the preceding verses. The preterists insist the 'ye' and 'you' can and does only refer to Jesus' immediate physical audience, specifically the apostles. So they insist that the generation that shall not pass is the generation of the apostles; the 1st generation church. The problem is that they completely fail to understand a simple principle in scripture with regard to 'prophetic passages.' This biblical principle occurs in 'prophetic passages' by which God speaks to an immediate physical audience, such as the apostles (1st generation NC assenbly) or the Israelites of Moses' day (1st generation OC assembly) for example, but is actually addressing 'future unborn generations yet to come.'

This principle is inherent in scripture writing, and seen from the very onset when Moses received the word of God and proclaimed it to the Israelites. The Israelites understood that the words proclaimed to them also applied to their children in every age, and not just their generation.


So when we follow this principle of God's Word and read such passages as Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 we clearly see that the 'ye' and 'you' Jesus is speaking to is defined by whichever generation would be around when these things come to pass. It is not confined to the apostles and disciples of that day anymore than Moses prophecy was confined to the generation of Israelites in their day who were his initial audience to whom his proclamation was given. The Jews of Jesus' day including his apostles were well aware of this biblical principle of the 'ye' and 'you' seen in their historical and prophetic writings. They certainly would not continue to be waiting for the Messiah if this were not the case. ...

That last part seems odd in light of:

Part 1.

From the very earliest days of the church, the apostles and first-generation Christians had an earnest expectation and fervent hope that Christ might suddenly return at any time to gather His church to heaven. 'Be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! (James 5:7-9). Peter echoed that same expectation when he wrote, 'The end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers' (1 Pet 4:7).

'Yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry' (Hebrews 10:37). And the apostle John stated, 'Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, even now many anti-christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour' (1 John 2:18). The New Testament writers often wrote of Christ’s 'appearing,' and they never failed to convey the sense that this could happen at any time. 'And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming' (1 John 2:28; cf. 3:2; Col 3:4; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 5:4).

All those texts suggest that in the early church, expectation of Christ’s sudden return at any time ran high. A conviction that Christ could return at any time permeates the whole NT. When the apostle Paul described the Lord’s coming for the church, he was convinced he himself might be among those who would be caught up alive to meet the Lord: 'We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord … . we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air' (1 Thess 4:15, 17 ). He obviously looked for Christ to return in his lifetime. ...

Posted by Twospirits 12-18-09 here http://americanvision.org/worldviewf...t=1328&start=0

Seems to me the Jews of Jesus' day including His apostles were completely ignorant of Twospirits' definition of "ye" and "you" (and "this generation") in prophetic passages. Shall we accept futurists wresting of plain words, or a conviction that permeates the whole New Testament?

[Clifford]

From the Matthew passages we see that the phrase 'this generation' hangs on the implications of the words 'ye' and 'you' in the preceding verses. The preterists insist the 'ye' and 'you' can and does only refer to Jesus' immediate physical audience, specifically the apostles. So they insist that the generation that shall not pass is the generation of the apostles; the 1st generation church.

The Apostles themselves believed that too. They were all expecting the Lord to return soon. They wrote that they were living in the "last days", and at the "end of the age", and they were in the "last hour" etc. That conclusively settles that question in my mind.

Clifford

[CWH]

The Apostles themselves believed that too. They were all expecting the Lord to return soon. They wrote that they were living in the "last days", and at the "end of the age", and they were in the "last hour" etc. That conclusively settles that question in my mind.

Clifford

So were the Early Church Fathers of the early few centuries AD waiting for the Lord's return either during their time or sometime in the future:

http://www.freeworldfilmworks.com/when-chap05.pdf

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

So were the Early Church Fathers of the early few centuries AD waiting for the Lord's return either during their time or sometime in the future:

http://www.freeworldfilmworks.com/when-chap05.pdf

Many Blessings.

Yes a lot of them were. But most of them recognized Matthew 24 as being fulfilled in 70AD.....even Iranaeus.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

So were the Early Church Fathers of the early few centuries AD waiting for the Lord's return either during their time or sometime in the future:

http://www.freeworldfilmworks.com/when-chap05.pdf

Many Blessings.

Interesting info Cheow. Here is a quote from the PDF:

The Didache was a Church manual written around 110 AD. It clearly taught that the Antichrist would rise to power before the Rapture:

Be you watchful for your life; let your lamps not be quenched and your loins not ungirded, but be ready; for you know not the hour when our Lord comes. And will gather yourselves together frequently, seeking what is fitting for your souls; for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not perfected at the last season. For in the last days the false prophets and corrupters will be multiplied, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate. For as lawlessness increases, they will hate one another and will persecute and betray. And then the world-deceiver will appear as a son of God; and will work signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands; and he will do unholy things, which have never been since the world began. Then all created mankind will come to the fire of testing, and many will be offended and perish; but they that endure in their faith will be saved by the Curse Himself. And then will the signs of the truth appear; first a sign of a rift in the heaven, then a sign of a voice of a trumpet, and thirdly, a resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it was said: The Lord shall come and all his saints with Him. Then will the world see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven. (Lightfoot, J.B., The Apostolic Fathers, p. 129, emphasis added, R.K.)

Look at that! The false hyper-literal interpretation of Christ "coming on clouds" was already being published in the second century. This shows how futurism started. The Gentile Christians, ignorant of the correct interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures, thought that the "Lord riding on a cloud" (Isa 19:1) was literal and that people could look up in the sky and see Jesus with their physical eyes "coming with the clouds of heaven." This was the beginning of 2000 years of erroneous doctrines and false predictions.

All the best.

[TheForgiven]

Interesting info Cheow. Here is a quote from the PDF:

The Didache was a Church manual written around 110 AD. It clearly taught that the Antichrist would rise to power before the Rapture:

Be you watchful for your life; let your lamps not be quenched and your loins not ungirded, but be ready; for you know not the hour when our Lord comes. And will gather yourselves together frequently, seeking what is fitting for your souls; for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not perfected at the last season. For in the last days the false prophets and corrupters will be multiplied, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate. For as lawlessness increases, they will hate one another and will persecute and betray. And then the world-deceiver will appear as a son of God; and will work signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands; and he will do unholy things, which have never been since the world began. Then all created mankind will come to the fire of testing, and many will be offended and perish; but they that endure in their faith will be saved by the Curse Himself. And then will the signs of the truth appear; first a sign of a rift in the heaven, then a sign of a voice of a trumpet, and thirdly, a resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it was said: The Lord shall come and all his saints with Him. Then will the world see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven. (Lightfoot, J.B., The Apostolic Fathers, p. 129, emphasis added, R.K.)

Look at that! The false hyper-literal interpretation of Christ "coming on clouds" was already being published in the second century. This shows how futurism started. The Gentile Christians, ignorant of the correct interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures, thought that the "Lord riding on a cloud" (Isa 19:1) was literal and that people could look up in the sky and see Jesus with their physical eyes "coming with the clouds of heaven." This was the beginning of 2000 years of erroneous doctrines and false predictions.

All the best.

I totally forgot about the Didache! I wonder if Papias may have been a student of what ever group the Didache was originated. It's been my personal opinion that Papias was the one who started the literal claims of Christ returning in His Kingdom, and planting vineyards so beautiful and tasteful, in order to fulfill His promise not to partake of the literal fruit of the vine until He returns.

Anyways, where did you get this copy?

Joe