Gentiles

[gilgal]

As the words nation, gentile and mulitiudes of people relate to the greek word ethnos. Seeing that [Saul] Paul was sent to Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel.

Acts 9:15
And the Lord said unto him, `Be going on, because a choice vessel to Me is this one, to bear My name before nations and kings -- the sons also of Israel; (YLT)

Some here has stated that the connection of these mulitiude of people 'ethnos' as being the lost sheep of Israel. Where these out cast of Israel where outside of the covenant promise and when God sent Paul he sent him unto these lost sheep.

Now one can interpret the uncircumsion of the flesh as Gentiles which is given in some detail in Ephesians.

Ephesians 2:11-12
11Wherefore, remember, that ye [were] once the nations in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands, 12that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;

This drives a question for me. In the case of Cornelius a man of the Italian band and one that prayed to God always. It seems odd that a Gentile would be praying to God everyday. Are should we understand that Cornelius is one of those out cast of Israel and among the children of Israel that is
uncircumsized? He has been given a good report from among all the nation of the Jews.

Is it a coincidence that many passages of circumcision have the number 11 involved?

Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
Colossians 4:11 And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only [are my] fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.

[gilgal]

That is very interesting and great insight Joel about the gate. It brings more meaning and understanding to that passage.

Richard, I notice that Paul on his journeys went first to the synagogues of the Jews. Maybe these are what is in reference as the children of Israel as well the word ethnos, which in the simplest meaning is mulitiudes as the children of Abraham is to be as the sand of the sea.

Was Saul not born a Hebrew as well having the rights of the Roman's?

Contrary to the rest of the apostles Saul was born and lived outside of Israel, Tarsus the capital of Cilicia.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

At a perfect timing did God intervene, only when he was headed toward Damascus.
After his conversion he only went to Jerusalem/Israel for a meeting in Acts 15 and I think Acts 21-22 for his Nazirite vow (I think since he shaved his head). But his focus throughout Acts was Jews and Gentiles outside Israel.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Contrary to the rest of the apostles Saul was born and lived outside of Israel, Tarsus the capital of Cilicia.

At a perfect timing did God intervene, only when he was headed toward Damascus.
After his conversion he only went to Jerusalem/Israel for a meeting in Acts 15 and I think Acts 21-22 for his Nazirite vow (I think since he shaved his head). But his focus throughout Acts was Jews and Gentiles outside Israel.

Those are interesting observations. But I wonder, are they supposed to give us insight as to how to understand his teachings?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Your question, Dear Richard, the lion-hearted one,
is so important......and so.........it should not be taken lightly.

The teachings of Paul.....are they meant to instruct both the Jews and the Gentiles?.......if not......why not?
--------------------------------------------------------------------

It is my belief that Paul's teachings are directed towards the Gentiles at this present time (and.....also to those of Israel who may be called accordingly).

He (Paul) made direct statements concerning the Jews.......and when they did not believe.....but rejected the gospel as concerning the Christ, Jesus, the annointed One.....then,............

even though, in Christ, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, in their relationship as to the worship of God, such distinction still remained..

As you said.......there is distinction between believers........(I see this as......the Gentiles....and the Jews).....there remains a distinction between Sons.......one which comes from Israel.....and one.....which comes from the Gentiles.

This, I see, is the distinction between our beliefs.
I see two sons.......both of which come from a union of Isaac and Rachel.... one Esau.....and the other....Jacob.

Each is blessed of God.

Each has a calling, and a destiny.

One cannot displace the other.

The difference in what we believe is that..........
the Jews are one..........
we, the Gentiles are the other.
You do not seem to believe this.

Joel

Ah ... Joel, you are a Mighty Marathon Runner - you have persisted in this for a very long time. I hope we will gain more mutual understanding this time round the mountain.

The doctrine of "Two Sons" is entirely new to me. Did you learn this somewhere, or did it originate with you?

Of course, now that I think about it, it looks like the standard Dispensational doctrine of "Two Peoples of God" with two different destinies. The "Church" and "Israel" - and never the two shall meet.

As you know, I think this is a fundamental error and I have explained why so many times, I have no idea what remains to be said. To my knowledge, the reasons I presented were never refuted, just ignored. I am mystified why you remain so adamant about a doctrine that has never been established in Scripture.

So where should we start? Perhaps the most effective way would be for me to state my understanding of your doctrines, and you can tell me if I got it right or not.

If I recall correctly, you believe Christians in this age have a "heavenly calling" while literal physical Israel will have an "earthly calling" in the future. And you see a future sequence yet to be fulfilled:

1) We are in the church age.

2) The church age will end with the Rapture when God will "take up" all believers (Jew and Gentile) to be with him in heaven. This is because they have the "heavenly calling."

3) Immediately after the Rapture God will turn his attention to physical Israel - meaning the people and land inhabiting the modern nation that goes by that name. They have the "earthly calling."

4) Some things (???) will happen that lead up to Christ's return, along with his raptured saints (or do they remain in heaven in their "heavenly calling"?), and he will set up a literal physical kingdom in Israel and Christ will physically rule from a physical "throne of David" in Israel and the physical descendants of Abraham will be converted to believe in him and they will administer some sort of "earthly" kingdom.

I know that's a pretty rough outline. I'm sorry if I've mangled it. But now you know what needs correcting. It would be very helpful if you stated you beliefs as briefly and clearly as possible.

Thanks!

Richard

[Beck]

Is it a coincidence that many passages of circumcision have the number 11 involved?

I'm not sure of your point?

[gilgal]

I'm not sure of your point?

Off topic. I was referring to the biblewheel. Never mind.

[Beck]

After Assyria's invasion the ten tribes are absorbed into the pagan Gentiles. So, calling them Gentiles was a slander. They'd become just like the rest of the animals. However, Hosea clearly says that on that day they'd be brought back.(Hosea 1:10-11) Likewise does Ezekiel speaking of Two Sticks becoming One.(Ezekiel 37:15-23) A symbol of Marriage. Likewise Isaiah, Hebrews and even Revelation.

It's clear in Romans 9 that he is talking about the natural branches and the wild branches being the Jews and the 10 Northern tribes (this becomes clear by understanding the passages from Hosea and Isaiah that Paul quotes).

Once all the grafting is done, "so all Israel will be saved." The mystery of how this works is the one that Paul is constantly talking about. It was always unclear how God was going to pull off what He promised with these two prophets.

The word gowy #1471 Old Testament,which is translated as Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People, and also the word ethnos #1484 NT, which is translated the same, Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People.

John 10:16: Jesus is talking to Judah...the "other sheep" he is referring to is probably the Northern tribes of Israel.

Matt 28:19..Go teach all Nations (Gr. ethnos=translated as Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People) again is referring to the other tribes of Israel.

Romans 1:16: "also to the Greeks".
Again, this to the tribes of Israel that had scattered to Greece.

Romans 2:9-10: "to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile" (again the word ethnos) same as above.

Gal.3:28: Couldn't it just be about the regathering of ALL Israel? No difference between the Jews [judah]and the other tribes of Israel? The rejoining of the two sticks into one stick??

Ezekiel 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.


And the Northern tribes were considered barbarians by the Jews.

If the Gentiles are all non-Israelites, then the inspired writers of the New Testament epistles misidentified their audience. The audience Hebrews to its writer is inarguable, in fact, Hebrews 8 quotes Hosea – a prophet to the dispersed House of Israel - directly. The audience of Romans were Israelites (Romans 4:1, Romans 4:16.) The Corinthians to whom Paul wrote were Israelites (1 Corinthians 10:1) but were also called Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:2)

The target of the ministry of Jesus and His disciples were the Gentiles; the lost sheep of the house of Israel, who were scattered among the nations. They had become uncircumsized heathen - "not a people." Though "gentilized," the diaspora was to be once again a people Hosea 1:10, and restored with the remnant of Judah.

At lease that is how I'm understanding the picture given to us through the prophets.

[gilgal]

After Assyria's invasion the ten tribes are absorbed into the pagan Gentiles. So, calling them Gentiles was a slander. They'd become just like the rest of the animals. However, Hosea clearly says that on that day they'd be brought back.(Hosea 1:10-11) Likewise does Ezekiel speaking of Two Sticks becoming One.(Ezekiel 37:15-23) A symbol of Marriage. Likewise Isaiah, Hebrews and even Revelation.

It's clear in Romans 9 that he is talking about the natural branches and the wild branches being the Jews and the 10 Northern tribes (this becomes clear by understanding the passages from Hosea and Isaiah that Paul quotes).

Once all the grafting is done, "so all Israel will be saved." The mystery of how this works is the one that Paul is constantly talking about. It was always unclear how God was going to pull off what He promised with these two prophets.

The word gowy #1471 Old Testament,which is translated as Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People, and also the word ethnos #1484 NT, which is translated the same, Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People.

John 10:16: Jesus is talking to Judah...the "other sheep" he is referring to is probably the Northern tribes of Israel.

Matt 28:19..Go teach all Nations (Gr. ethnos=translated as Nations, Gentiles, Heathen, People) again is referring to the other tribes of Israel.

Romans 1:16: "also to the Greeks".
Again, this to the tribes of Israel that had scattered to Greece.

Romans 2:9-10: "to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile" (again the word ethnos) same as above.

Gal.3:28: Couldn't it just be about the regathering of ALL Israel? No difference between the Jews [judah]and the other tribes of Israel? The rejoining of the two sticks into one stick??

Ezekiel 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.


And the Northern tribes were considered barbarians by the Jews.

If the Gentiles are all non-Israelites, then the inspired writers of the New Testament epistles misidentified their audience. The audience Hebrews to its writer is inarguable, in fact, Hebrews 8 quotes Hosea – a prophet to the dispersed House of Israel - directly. The audience of Romans were Israelites (Romans 4:1, Romans 4:16.) The Corinthians to whom Paul wrote were Israelites (1 Corinthians 10:1) but were also called Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:2)

The target of the ministry of Jesus and His disciples were the Gentiles; the lost sheep of the house of Israel, who were scattered among the nations. They had become uncircumsized heathen - "not a people." Though "gentilized," the diaspora was to be once again a people Hosea 1:10, and restored with the remnant of Judah.

At lease that is how I'm understanding the picture given to us through the prophets.

Can you be more specific about Hosea? I don't know much about that prophet. I want to understand his prophecies. I think I read somewhere in the bible (Kings or Chronicles) that the northern Israelites who weren't happy with wicked kings migrated to the south, Judah. So the tribes aren't lost. Only a part of the northern tribes were lost. If you look at Luke 2:

Luke 2
36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

This prophetess from the tribe of Asher was living in Jerusalem.
Peter, James and John and Andrew were from Galilee, which belonged to Zebulun and Naphtali (but I don't know from what tribe they originated from).

[Beck]

Can you be more specific about Hosea? I don't know much about that prophet. I want to understand his prophecies.

Loammi (lōăm`ī) [Heb.,=not my people], in the Bible, symbolic name of the prophet Hosea's second son and figurative name of Israel before reconciliation.

Hosea 1:9-11 9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Paul relates to Hosea in these passage he quotes from Romans 9:24-29. As stated before Paul's audience were Romans that were Israelites.

Romans 4:11What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

These Israelites that Paul was addressing where those he spoke of concerning the prophecy of Hosea 'People which were not my people'. Paul asked, Hath God cast them way? No God would graft them back into the fold / branch.

Romans 11:1-5 1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

There is much more in Ephesians 2:11-15, Hebrews 8:8, and of course Revelation 7:1-17. So that all of Israel might be saved. The book of Hosea and life of Hosea is a imagery of the dealings of God with Israel which has judgments and restoration. As seen that the ten tribes of Israel are carried away and then brought back through the preaching of the gospel by Paul.

Many symbolic imagery can be found in the OT and NT of this coming together of the house of Judah and the house of Israel. As given in above post one is the Two Sticks of Ezekiel .

I think I read somewhere in the bible (Kings or Chronicles) that the northern Israelites who weren't happy with wicked kings migrated to the south, Judah. So the tribes aren't lost. Only a part of the northern tribes were lost. If you look at Luke 2:

Yes, only a remnant will be saved. Romans 11:5

Beck

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Paul relates to Hosea in these passage he quotes from Romans 9:24-29. As stated before Paul's audience were Romans that were Israelites.

Romans 4:11What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Hey there Beck,

You have covered a lot of territory. I will need to establish the basics before I can catch up with your argument.

It appears you are saying the word "ethnos" (usually translated as "Gentiles") actually refers to physical descendants of the lost tribes.

I see two fundamental problems with this suggestion:

1) There is no such thing as the "lost tribes." They have been fully absorbed into the Gentiles. I explained this in Post #4, and you have yet to reply. I would be very interested in your understanding of this argument.

2) The Gospel is supposed to go to the entire world - to both "Jews and Gentiles" - if you are correct, it goes only to Israel. The Gentiles are left out.

Also, I'm not sure that your argument about "audience identification" is correct. Paul declares that Abraham is the father of all believers, so Rom 4:1 does not identify only physical descendants.

So ... I'd like to pursue this topic, but I think we need to work on the foundation a bit. If there is no such thing as the "lost tribes" then we have a rather big problem.

All the best,

Richard