What is the Point?

[Edward Goodie]

There is absolutely no point in discussing these things with futurists who have no desire to accept Scripture as their final and only authority.

These futurists completely ignore the original audience. They have to. For them, the NT writers were writing to them, and not to whom they were actually writing to.

They have no original interpretation to base any application from. Their whole system is bogus.

When Paul says "we," the futurists say present-day Christianity...what can you do with a false mindset like that? The answer is absolutely nothing. If they do not understand the hermeneutic of audience relevance, then no good purpose will ever come out of it. This is, as Ram said, the core issue.

Until they can accept the following Scriptures as being true, NOTHING will ever be accomplished. The same goes for the audience in the Gospels.

Romans 1:1-7 - Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God...
7 ...To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:1-3 - Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1-2 - Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:1-3 - Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1:1-2 - Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:1-2 - Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1-2 - Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:1 - Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:1-2 - Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1-2 - Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1-2 - Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:1-4 - Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1:1-3 - Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,
2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:
3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:1 - James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

1 Peter 1:1-2 - Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2 Peter 1:1-2 - Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2 John 1:1-3 - The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

3 John 1:1 - The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.

Revelation 1:1-4 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Perhaps someone here is willing to take them through some epistles to see when and where the pronoun "you," first established as being the first century church, CHANGES to the present-day church...

Until you can get these futurists to understand that the Scriptures were not written TO us present-day Christians (but that there are applications that can be made from the ORIGINAL interpretation), you will be completely wasting your time. I STRONGLY suggest that you concentrate on this issue alone. And once agreement has been reached (it probably won't be), then, and only then, can you move forward in other venues...

When the NT writers say "at hand," the futurists think 2,000 years (and counting). Yet when these futurists say the Lord's coming is near to us (present-day Christianity), they do not think 2,000 years...too funny.

I was hoping that some progress had been made with the futurists when I was last here, but I see it is the same or even worse.

Good luck, guys.

[CWH]

There are of course verses that referred to original audience but I can show you many verses in which you does not mean just the original audience but to all throughout the generations but I need time to organise them. A good example is "YOU are the salt of the world"....did it applied to original audience or to all generations of Christians? "Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation."..who were this "us" and "ours", the original audience - only?
But does it really matters if God was speaking to original audience or to the present audience since He is omnipresent?...meaning what He spoke applies to us today and in the future?

Now This is the point, please specify if you do not agree:

1. God is omnipresent, do you agree?
2. He is here yesterday, today and tomorrow. God was, is and is to come, do you agree?
3. Jesus is in heaven today and what is He currently doing? Doing nothing but enjoying Himself and watching the world go by?...of course not, then what is He doing? ..ensuring sin continues without end? I think God is in heaven helping us Christians fight against evil and sin so that we can enter the kingdom of heaven? Do you agree?
4. Jesus is with us today till the end of time and He is in control of every human affair....do you agree?
5. What the Bible taught is applicable today? ...do you agree? If so, is God speaking to you today?
6. Since God is here with us today as it was yesteryears, should we read the Bible as if God is speaking to you today, face to face?...do you agree?

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

"YOU are the salt of the world"....did it applied to original audience or to all generations of Christians?

This passage applied to THEM, as in the Jews; they were the salt (season) of the world. But we relate to it. So the answer is that this passage was meant for them, but we learn from them; the salt of our world.

1. God is omnipresent, do you agree?
2. He is here yesterday, today and tomorrow. God was, is and is to come, do you agree?
3. Jesus is in heaven today and what is He currently doing? Doing nothing but enjoying Himself and watching the world go by?...of course not, then what is He doing? ..ensuring sin continues without end? I think God is in heaven helping us Christians fight against evil and sin so that we can enter the kingdom of heaven? Do you agree?
4. Jesus is with us today till the end of time and He is in control of every human affair....do you agree?
5. What the Bible taught is applicable today? ...do you agree? If so, is God speaking to you today?
6. Since God is here with us today as it was yesteryears, should we read the Bible as if God is speaking to you today, face to face?...do you agree?

I thought you were going to provide examples of Prohesy that applied to all generations?

Joe

[CWH]

[QUOTE]

This passage applied to THEM, as in the Jews; they were the salt (season) of the world. But we relate to it. So the answer is that this passage was meant for them, but we learn from them; the salt of our world.

Although salt representing the Jews is plausible but it doesn't sounds right if we replace salt as Jews in the passages, however it sounds better if we put salt as Christians or Christianity:

Matthew 5:13
[ Salt and Light ] “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
1.You are the Jews of the earth, But if the Jews have lost its Jewishness, how can it made Jewish again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
2. You are the Christians of the earth, But if the Christians have lost its Christian-ness/Christianity (or the Christ in you), how can it be made Christians again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.
1. Everyone wil be jewed with fire.
2. Everyone will be christened with fire.

Mark 9:50
“Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”
1. Jew is good. but if it loses its Jewishness, how can it be made Jewish again? Have Jews among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.
2. Christianity is good. but if it loses its Christian-ness (or the Christ in you), how can it be made Christian again? Have Christian-ness (Christ in you)/Christians among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.

I thought you were going to provide examples of Prohesy that applied to all generations?

It takes time to organise all those passages ...will do so when I have time. But please don't avoid my questions. Unlikely Truthseeker1959 will answer all these questions as is very typical of him, would you Joe. like to have a try? Please specify if you disagree with my questions.

1. God is omnipresent, do you agree?
2. He is here yesterday, today and tomorrow. God was, is and is to come, do you agree?
3. Jesus is in heaven today and what is He currently doing? Doing nothing but enjoying Himself and watching the world go by?...of course not, then what is He doing? ..ensuring sin continues without end? I think God is in heaven helping us Christians fight against evil and sin so that we can enter the kingdom of heaven? Do you agree?
4. Jesus is with us today till the end of time and He is in control of every human affair....do you agree?
5. What the Bible taught is applicable today? ...do you agree? If so, is God speaking to you today?
6. Since God is here with us today as it was yesteryears, should we read the Bible as if God is speaking to you today, face to face?...do you agree?

Many Blessings.

[Brother Les]

Cheow

6. Since God is here with us today as it was yesteryears, should we read the Bible as if God is speaking to you today, face to face?...do you agree?

I am glad to see that you now understand the we are in Heaven with YHWH/Jesus right now as we speak.

[CWH]

I am glad to see that you now understand the we are in Heaven with YHWH/Jesus right now as we speak.

Sorry, not yet...earth has yet to become the kingdom of heaven on earth as it is in heaven, but it will be one day. Let's look forward to that day. I always believe Jesus is in heaven and is involved in every human affairs since the 1st century, I don't believe God just leave us with our whims and fancies since AD 70.....everything is as planned according to design....remember He said He is with us till the end of time. He is wiorking very hard to ensure that sin and evil is destroyed so that we are righteous enough to be eligible to enter into the kingdom of heaven....but.... the gate is wide and few will enter it.

Many Blessings.

[CWH]

There are just to many verses that seems to refer to both the 1st century audience and all the generations after, I'll just take some from Matthew. I know people wil say that Jesus talked to those in the 1st century not to us. But is Jesus still with us today? If yes, does He still talk to us today by His words in the Bible?

Matthew, Chapter 3, 009:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Some Jews today still pride themselves being the descendant of Abraham an d thus immune from God's punishment.

Matthew, Chapter 3, 011:
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
We are still baptise with water, the Holy Ghost and Fire.

Matthew, Chapter 4, 019:
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
Our mission is to be fishers of men which missionaries and Christians still do.

Matthew, Chapter 5, 011:
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Christians are still persecuted throughout the world

Matthew, Chapter 5, 016:
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
We are to show examples as Christians to the world by our good works

Matthew, Chapter 5, 018:
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Have heaven and earth pass away...till all is fulfilled.

Matthew, Chapter 5, 020:
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
We are to strive for righteousness

Matthew, Chapter 5, 022:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Does it applies to us today? It applies to calling an individual a fool but does not apply to calling systems, processes, things, animals and in general as fools

Matthew, Chapter 5, 028:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Does it applies to us today? Do people still lust at women?

Matthew, Chapter 5, 032:
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Are divorces due to fornication, adultery common today?

Matthew, Chapter 5, 034:
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Do not swear yet swearing is also common.


I am still waiting for people to answert my simple questions... seems like they have no answers:

1. God is omnipresent, do you agree?
2. He is here yesterday, today and tomorrow. God was, is and is to come, do you agree?
3. Jesus is in heaven today and what is He currently doing? Doing nothing but enjoying Himself and watching the world go by?...of course not, then what is He doing? ..ensuring sin continues without end? I think God is in heaven helping us Christians fight against evil and sin and lead righteous life so that we can enter the kingdom of heaven? Do you agree?
4. Jesus is with us today till the end of time and He is in control of every human affair....do you agree?
5. What the Bible taught is applicable today? ...do you agree? If so, is God speaking to you today?
6. Since God is here with us today as it was yesteryears, should we read the Bible as if God is speaking to you today, face to face?...do you agree?

Many Blessings.