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  1. #131
    Ram wrote,

    This is the error of your interpretation of Acts 17:24. It is true that God never "dwelt" in Temples made of hands in the sense of being contained in them. But it is false to say that God did not dwell in the Temple in the sense of making himself available to commune with the priests and to represent his presence in Israel.

    And there is one more point. When Paul declared that God does not dwell in temples made of hands, he was speaking after God had abandoned the physical Temple. So your whole argument falls apart on this point as well.
    Richard, when do you see God abandoning the temple if I may ask?

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    You have yet to prove a point.
    Whirlwind posts another lie. Why am I not surprised?

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Again, you fail to see what is written.
    Whirlwind posts another meaningless one-line denial without any evidence whatsoever. Why am I still not surprised?

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Whirlwind now surpasses his previous meaningless one-line denials by posting a smiley as if it were a rational response to a biblical argument. I am now beginning to feel a bit of surprise. There appears to be no "bottom" to they abyss of Whirlwind's mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    And there is one more point. When Paul declared that God does not dwell in temples made of hands, he was speaking after God had abandoned the physical Temple. So your whole argument falls apart on this point as well.
    Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

    What prophet would that be and...when was it written?
    Wow ... just when I thought Whirlwind totally incapable of any rational response, he surprises me! It was a good try, but unfortunately he misinterpreted the verse. He thought the phrase "as saith prophet" refers to the preceding statement when in fact it refers to the statement that follows:
    Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
    The words following "as saith the prophet" are a direct quote from Isaiah 66:1. The words preceding it are not found anywhere in the Old Testament.

    The fact that Whirlwind did not understand this point is evident by his question. He did not quote the words that were the subject of "as saith the prophet." On the contrary, he incorrectly implied that the words preceding it were the subject.


    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Bottom Line: You are interpreting that Scripture, and you are interpreting it incorrectly, which is why your interpretation leads to contradictions with other passages.
    Please read what is written with greater care.


    .
    Dude, I doubt there has ever been anyone who has read your words with greater care. I say this because if anyone had, you would not be repeating the same elementary errors here on my forum, would you?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Once again pride raises it's ugly head and Whirlwind denies that he interprets the Bible.
    No, Whirlwind wrote....

    The Bible isn't wrong, and as I am not interpreting this...I am not in error. So, that leaves......?
    Hey there Whirlwind,

    I know that you do not think you are interpreting that verse. That is your error. All words require interpretation. That's why I posted the different definitions of the Greek word translated as "dwell." If you wrongly interpret the words of the Bible, then you will often encounter apparent contradictions in Scripture. Case in point, God did not "dwell" in the Temple made of hands in the sense of being "contained" within the Temple like a human would be, but he did "dwell" in the Temple made with hands in the sense that he was available to his people there. You have not given any reason to reject this explanation. And more importantly, this explanation demonstrates that the verse must be interpreted. You really really need to quit denying that you are interpreting the Bible!

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Think about this folks! Whirlwind statement that God never "dwelt" in physical Temple Solomon build in Jerusalem directly contradicts the Biblical testimony and every scholar who has ever written on this subject!
    Does it directly contradict God? No, it doesn't.
    Whirlwind posts another one-line denial without any evidence, explanation, or biblical support. Why am I not surprised?

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    This is trivial stuff, yet it is impossible to even discuss any of it in a rational way with Whirlwind because he refuses to speak clearly without twisting words.
    Some may not be able to understand..that doesn't mean anything is twisted...simply not yet open to some.
    How could anyone understand? You don't even try to explain your own words! You write one liners and simply say "IS NOT" and think anyone could understand you?

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    PS: I explained to Whirlwind that he was incorrectly interpreting the world "dwell" to mean "contain" and showed him that this is the explanation given in Scripture, but he did not understand.
    There is much I still have to understand. You will find that I am very selective on who teaches me.
    Great. We are all in the same boat. We are all trying to understand, that is, to correctly interpret what the Bible is saying. To make an progress, we need to seek mutual understanding with each other, so we can see the plain facts that are the REALITY of what the Bible actually states, and then we can pin-point the "hard passages" that are not so clear and that require much more difficult interpretation. Until we agree to work together on this, we will make no progress.

    That's why it is important for you to explain how you arrived at your interpretations. Merely asserting that you are just "accepting what the Bible says" without any interpretation is false. It is not even a possibility because the Bible is written in ambiguous human language, which also has been translated, and it was written in a culture from 2000 years ago of which we have no direct knowledge. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that can be understood without interpretation. Absolutely nothing.

    Do you understand this fact yet?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post

    Wow ... just when I thought Whirlwind totally incapable of any rational response, he surprises me! It was a good try, but unfortunately he misinterpreted the verse. He thought the phrase "as saith prophet" refers to the preceding statement when in fact it refers to the statement that follows:
    Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
    The words following "as saith the prophet" are a direct quote from Isaiah 66:1. The words preceding it are not found anywhere in the Old Testament.

    Isaiah was indeed the prophet telling us that God doesn't dwell in a temple made with hands. Rather, He tells us where He dwells....

    Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool: where is the house that ye build unto Me? and where is the place of My rest?


    Do you hear the irony in that statement? God dwells in heaven and yet man builds a house for Him, as if the Lord needed us to? So, where your statement was....


    Originally Posted by RAM
    And there is one more point. When Paul declared that God does not dwell in temples made of hands, he was speaking after God had abandoned the physical Temple. So your whole argument falls apart on this point as well

    ....we see that the prophet Paul was quoting was declaring this before the physical temple was destroyed in 70AD.



    The fact that Whirlwind did not understand this point is evident by his question. He did not quote the words that were the subject of "as saith the prophet." On the contrary, he incorrectly implied that the words preceding it were the subject.

    Perhaps it's best to allow others to read it themselves.....

    Isaiah 66:1-2 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool: where is the house that ye build unto Me? and where is the place of My rest? (2) For all those things hath Mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at My word.



    .

  5. #135
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    Richard, when do you see God abandoning the temple if I may ask?

    God bless---Twospirits
    Hi Henry. I hope you don't me answering this question. I honestly do not know, but I believe the last time God may have dwelt within a man-made temple was prior to the destruction of Solomon's temple. I could be wrong, but even after the 1st temple was destroyed, and the 2nd temple rebuilt, I honestly don't recall God placing His glory within the 2nd temple, perhaps due to the Arch of the Covenant never being recovered after the Babylonian invasion. At any rate, the fact that He discontinued dwelling in man-made temples was Him trying to prove a point. The picture was this, in my opinion, that a sinful or unclean temple, God will evade or destroy; this picture also applies to a Christian. If a Christian laps back into falsehood, and soils his garment, the glory of God will depart his temple (body).

    This is my opinion, and so I could be wrong.

    What do you think?

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 02-11-2011 at 12:17 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Isaiah was indeed the prophet telling us that God doesn't dwell in a temple made with hands. Rather, He tells us where He dwells....
    Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool: where is the house that ye build unto Me? and where is the place of My rest?
    Do you hear the irony in that statement? God dwells in heaven and yet man builds a house for Him, as if the Lord needed us to? So, where your statement was....
    That's right. Solomon spoke of this when he built the Temple for God to dwell in:
    1 Kings 8:10 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, 11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD. 12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness. 13 I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever. 27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
    Solomon is saying that God would dwell in the Temple in the sense of being present to his people, but he would not dwell in the Temple in the sense of being contained within it. I've explained this to you at least three times and you have not given any intelligent response as yet. Do you now understand why your interpretation of Acts 17:24 is wrong? If not, why not? You need to show why the word "dwell" is not being used in two different senses in these two different passages.

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    ....we see that the prophet Paul was quoting was declaring this before the physical temple was destroyed in 70AD.
    Of course! The presence of God left the Temple when the veil was torn.

    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Perhaps it's best to allow others to read it themselves.....
    Isaiah 66:1-2 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool: where is the house that ye build unto Me? and where is the place of My rest? (2) For all those things hath Mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at My word.
    .
    There you go again! Claiming that any modern person should be able to interpret an English translation of a 2000 year old text written in Koine Greek! Man, when are you going to learn???? You have yet to admit that there are multiple meanings to the word "dwell" including metaphorical meanings.

    I am absolutely stunned that you have been studying the Bible for many years and yet you are absolutely ignorant of the most basic principles of Biblical hermeneutics. This is why all your interpretations are just your own private imagination. They have essentially nothing to do with what is actually written in the Bible.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Richard, when do you see God abandoning the temple if I may ask?

    God bless---Twospirits
    Hey there Henry,

    Good question. The best answer seems to be when the veil was torn. Some folks believe it was when Christ said "Your house is left to you desolate" but I think that was just a statement that they were on a one-way course to judgment, not that it happened at that moment (since nothing actually happened but Christ speaking to them).

    What is your opinion?

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #138
    Ram wrote,

    Hey there Henry,

    Good question. The best answer seems to be when the veil was torn. Some folks believe it was when Christ said "Your house is left to you desolate" but I think that was just a statement that they were on a one-way course to judgment, not that it happened at that moment (since nothing actually happened but Christ speaking to them).

    What is your opinion?
    I tend to lean towards the answer Joe gave concerning God's presence not existing “in” the 2nd temple.


    The Forgiven wrote,

    Hi Henry. I hope you don't me answering this question. I honestly do not know, but I believe the last time God may have dwelt within a man-made temple was prior to the destruction of Solomon's temple. I could be wrong, but even after the 1st temple was destroyed, and the 2nd temple rebuilt, I honestly don't recall God placing His glory within the 2nd temple, perhaps due to the Arch of the Covenant never being recovered after the Babylonian invasion. At any rate, the fact that He discontinued dwelling in man-made temples was Him trying to prove a point. The picture was this, in my opinion, that a sinful or unclean temple, God will evade or destroy; this picture also applies to a Christian. If a Christian laps back into falsehood, and soils his garment, the glory of God will depart his temple (body).

    This is my opinion, and so I could be wrong.

    What do you think?
    I agree with much of what you say. I am of the opinion that after the destruction of Solomon's temple and the 2nd temple was rebuilt we do not see God's presence returning to dwell in it. But the last time we see the presence or “glory of the Lord is in Ezekiel's vision. Ezek. 11:23, “And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which (is) on the east side of the city.”

    And in Ezekiel's vision of the measuring of a temple in Ezek. 43:4-7.

    “And the glory of the Lord came into* the house by the way of the gate whose prospect (which faces) toward the east. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled* the house. And I heard (him) speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne*, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever,---.” We see here the glory of the Lord came into* the house, and the glory of the Lord filled* the house, and henceforth it would be where he would dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. (Ezek. 43:9).


    Then we have Christ's first Advent.

    John 1:14, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt (#4637, “skenoo”) among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

    That's how I see it.

    God bless---Twospirits
    Last edited by Twospirits; 02-11-2011 at 01:42 PM.
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    I tend to lean towards the answer Joe gave concerning God's presence not existing 'in' the 2nd temple.

    I agree with much of what you say. I am of the opinion that after the destruction of Solomon's temple and the 2nd temple was rebuilt we do not see God's presence returning to dwell in it. But the last time we see the presence or 'glory of the Lord is in Ezekiel's vision. Ezek. 11:23, 'And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which (is) on the east side of the city.'

    And in Ezekiel's vision of the measuring of a temple in Ezek. 43:4-7.

    'And the glory of the Lord came into* the house by the way of the gate whose prospect (which faces) toward the east. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled* the house. And I heard (him) speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne*, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever,---.' We see here the glory of the Lord came into* the house, and the glory of the Lord filled* the house, and henceforth it would be where he would dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. (Ezek. 43:9).


    Then we have Christ's first Advent.

    John 1:14, 'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt (#4637, 'skenoo') among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'

    That's how I see it.

    God bless---Twospirits
    Hummm .... that makes pretty good sense. But what about these words from Christ?
    Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
    How could Christ speak of "him that dwelleth therein" if God no longer dwelt therein?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hummm .... that makes pretty good sense. But what about these words from Christ?
    Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
    How could Christ speak of "him that dwelleth therein" if God no longer dwelt therein?

    All the best,

    Richard


    1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


    .

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