What is "This Generation?"

[Rose]

Jews are human and others are not?



Rose, the subject has been God "dwelling" in a temple.



NOWHERE is it written that God dwelt in a house made with hands. That is the point of this discussion.

Do you not think that "meeting", and "communing", is the same as DWELLING?

Of course God's permenant dwelling place was in heaven, but He dwelt in the Temple made with hands when He communed with His people.

Exo.25:17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof...20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be....22) And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims WHICH are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

The Bible isn't wrong, and as I am not interpreting this...I am not in error. So, that leaves......?


Do you then believe that God would dwell with those that didn't have Him in their hearts? That He would dwell with those that only honored Him with their lips...and not their heart? I don't. I see many that believe He dwells in them and...He isn't there. So, when it is written that He would dwell among them then...yes, He was in their hearts.



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If God dwelt in the hearts of people under the Old Covenant then there would have been no need for Him to pour out His Holy Spirit on the hearts of men in the New.

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

So, either the Bible is wrong, or your interpretation of it is wrong...

The Bible isn't wrong, and as I am not interpreting this...I am not in error. So, that leaves......?

Once again pride raises it's ugly head and Whirlwind denies that he interprets the Bible. When will this farce end? Will he ever be able to admit the simplest of truths? Not only does whirlwind "interpret" the Bible, he interprets it in ways that are foreign to the entire body of Biblical commentary written since the first century!

Think about this folks! Whirlwind statement that God never "dwelt" in physical Temple Solomon build in Jerusalem directly contradicts the Biblical testimony and every scholar who has ever written on this subject!

Furthermore, he directly contradicts the entire typological basis for the identification of the Church as the Temple of God:

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

If God did not "dwell" in Solomon's Temple, then Solomon's Temple would not be a "TYPE" of the Church! This is trivial stuff, yet it is impossible to even discuss any of it in a rational way with Whirlwind because he refuses to speak clearly without twisting words.

I think maybe I have misunderstood Whirlwind. It may be that he is not doing this "deliberately." It is possible that his thoughts are as twisted as his posts, and that he simply can't help it. If so, all I can say is "God help him."

Richard

PS: I explained to Whirlwind that he was incorrectly interpreting the world "dwell" to mean "contain" and showed him that this is the explanation given in Scripture, but he did not understand.

[whirlwind]

I don't know if you quite understand so I'll expand on this a bit more as I have come to study the meaning of "THE abomination of desolation."

I thought I would get a reaction and that this was what you were seeing but...I'm seeing something else from your post.

The abomination of desolation (or more correctly, the desecrating sacrilege) can only be committed by God's true priests. In the NT the body of Christ (1 Peter 2:5,9) are considered the Lord's 'priests,' and no other.

We are a temple considered holy by the Lord, and it is not to be defiled lest God judge and destroy him.

1 Cor. 3:17, 'If any man defile the temple (#3485; 'naos') of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.'

2 Cor. 6:16, 'And what agreement hath the temple (#3485; 'naos') of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.'

Eph. 2:20-21, 'And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord.'

Abomination standing in God's house will make it a forsaken place deprived of God's blessings. This is what 2 Thess. 2:3-4 speaks of.

1 Peter 4:17, 'For the time that judgment (is come) that judgment must begin (2 Thess. 2:7; mystery of iniquity) at the house of God; and if (it) first (begin) at us, what shall the end (be) of them that obey not the gospel of God?'

God bless---Twospirits

My thoughts....

We cannot be God's true priests and abide in His holy temple, where He walks in us, abides in us...unless we recognize that judgment "first begins with us." (see all the above verses for confirmation ) So then, when I read the following it allows me to see....

11 Thessalonians 2:1-7 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

It is written to us "let no man deceive you," so the subject is...us individually and being gathered to Him. We cannot allow ourselves to be deceived "by any means" AND we will not be gathered "except there come a falling away first!"

To me, the falling away is falling away from our old nature of sin. Or...that "man of sin be revealed the son of perdition." We must reveal that man to ourselves before we can crucify him. Until then we are just playing church. We "sitteth in the temple of God," believing He dwells in us when....He doesn't.

Iniquity is at work in each and every one of us and must be "revealed in his time," to be priests of God. In other words, "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." We letteth iniquity work. We control our destiny.


God bless you too....Whirlwind


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[whirlwind]

That is absolutely false. Jesus said:

Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

Christ was speaking about the stone Temple made with hands. If God did not "dwell" in that Temple, then of whom was Christ speaking when he referred to "him that dwelleth therein"?

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


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[whirlwind]

Do you not think that "meeting", and "communing", is the same as DWELLING?

No.

Of course God's permenant dwelling place was in heaven, but He dwelt in the Temple made with hands when He communed with His people.

Exo.25:17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof...20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be....22) And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims WHICH are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

If God dwelt in the hearts of people under the Old Covenant then there would have been no need for Him to pour out His Holy Spirit on the hearts of men in the New.

Rose

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.




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[whirlwind]

Once again pride raises it's ugly head and Whirlwind denies that he interprets the Bible.

No, Whirlwind wrote....

The Bible isn't wrong, and as I am not interpreting this...I am not in error. So, that leaves......?

Think about this folks! Whirlwind statement that God never "dwelt" in physical Temple Solomon build in Jerusalem directly contradicts the Biblical testimony and every scholar who has ever written on this subject!

Does it directly contradict God? No, it doesn't.

This is trivial stuff, yet it is impossible to even discuss any of it in a rational way with Whirlwind because he refuses to speak clearly without twisting words.

Some may not be able to understand..that doesn't mean anything is twisted...simply not yet open to some.

Richard

PS: I explained to Whirlwind that he was incorrectly interpreting the world "dwell" to mean "contain" and showed him that this is the explanation given in Scripture, but he did not understand.

There is much I still have to understand. You will find that I am very selective on who teaches me.



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[Richard Amiel McGough]

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


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That proves my point. The Temple made with hands would not have been a type of the Church (spiritual Temple) if God had not dwelt in it. Why do you not understand this elementary Biblical fact?

Now you claim you do not interpret the verse that says God "dwelleth not in temples made with hands" (Acts 17:24). I say you do. You are claiming that the word "dwell" in this verse has the same meaning as in all other verses. That is "interpretation." And in this case, it is false interpretation. I have explained this to you in great detail, and showed this very idea is taught in Scripture in this post, but you gave no intelligent response, as seen here. Here is what I wrote - please note the red text:

Hey there Whirlwind,

That was one of the best attempts yet to find a way to support one of your theories from Scripture. Well done!

But it is, of course, quite trivial to prove your argument false. We just need to look at what is written:

Exodus 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

God explicitly declares that he would meet with Moses from between cherubim fashioned by Moses for the mercy seat of the ark. God spoke to Moses from between these physcial cherubim atop the ark while they wandered through the wilderness, and this is the topic of Psalm 80:1 which speaks of God as the Shepherd of Israel who guided them through the wilderness by speaking to Moses from between the Cherubim atop the ark which he had made:

Psalm 80:1 Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

And of course, we know that Christ spoke of God dwelling in the Temple made of stone:

Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

This verse directly contradicts your assertions. And indeed, every verse confirms every other verse relating to this question, except the one verse that you place above all others concerning the fact that God is not actually "contained" within a temple made with hands. That is the error that verse addresses. It does not void all the other verses that say God's presence "dwelt" in the Temple. This is your error. You take things too literally, and this causes many contradictions in your interpretations of Scripture. The funny thing is that this issue was already dealt with in the very verse in which God says he would dwell in the temple made with hands:

1 Kings 8:11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD. 12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness. 13 I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever. ... 27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

This verse clarifies that God is not "contained" in a limited location, even as it declares that he did "dwell" in the Temple. We see exactly the same tension by the fact that God dwelt "in Christ" who is the True Temple. This is not a contradiction except to minds hampered by excessive literalism, which, but the way, is a very fallacious way of reasoning that ignores the true meanings of words.

So I think I have found the source of your confusion. God ordained the Temple and the Ark of the Covenant to be types of the things in heaven. Thus, just as God "dwells" in heaven, so also he is said to "dwell" "between the cherubim" above the ark. Now a super-fundamentalist ultra-literal mind might find this impossible to comprehend and so refuse to accept that the language of the True Temple is also used in the description of the typological earthly copy, the "shadow." This diagnosis seems pretty likely since you have demonstrate great confusion over the earthly Temple vs. the spiritual Temple. Indeed, you have pressed this confusion so far that you refuse to refer to the earthly Temple as the "Temple" without qualification, which is an absurdity of extraordinary magnitude given that the Bible frequently refers to the earthly Temple with no such qualification.

This is the error of your interpretation of Acts 17:24. It is true that God never "dwelt" in Temples made of hands in the sense of being contained in them. But it is false to say that God did not dwell in the Temple in the sense of making himself available to commune with the priests and to represent his presence in Israel.

And there is one more point. When Paul declared that God does not dwell in temples made of hands, he was speaking after God had abandoned the physical Temple. So your whole argument falls apart on this point as well.

Bottom Line: You are interpreting that Scripture, and you are interpreting it incorrectly, which is why your interpretation leads to contradictions with other passages.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Do you not think that "meeting", and "communing", is the same as DWELLING?

No.

Here is Strong's definition of the Greek word that Whirlwind fails to understand:

2730 katoike,w katoikeo {kat-oy-keh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to dwell, settle 1a) metaph. divine powers, influences, etc., are said to dwell in his soul, to pervade, prompt, govern it 2) to dwell in, inhabit 2a) God is said to dwell in the temple, i.e. to be always present for worshippers

The fact that Whirlwind denies "interpreting" Acts 17:24 indicates that he is fundamentally ignorant in the grossest possible way. He does not even admit that words have different meanings dependent upon context. Yet he presents his interpretations as "not interpretations" even as he denies the plain interpretation as it has been understood by students of Scripture for nearly 2000 years. This is a vast, swelling arrogance unlike anything I have ever seen.

[whirlwind]

That proves my point. The Temple made with hands would not have been a type of the Church (spiritual Temple) if God had not dwelt in it. Why do you not understand this elementary Biblical fact?

You have yet to prove a point.

Now you claim you do not interpret the verse that says God "dwelleth not in temples made with hands" (Acts 17:24). I say you do. You are claiming that the word "dwell" in this verse has the same meaning as in all other verses. That is "interpretation." And in this case, it is false interpretation. I have explained this to you in great detail, and showed this very idea is taught in Scripture in this post, but you gave no intelligent response, as seen here. Here is what I wrote - please note the red text:

Again, you fail to see what is written.

This is the error of your interpretation of Acts 17:24. It is true that God never "dwelt" in Temples made of hands in the sense of being contained in them. But it is false to say that God did not dwell in the Temple in the sense of making himself available to commune with the priests and to represent his presence in Israel.

And there is one more point. When Paul declared that God does not dwell in temples made of hands, he was speaking after God had abandoned the physical Temple. So your whole argument falls apart on this point as well.

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,


What prophet would that be and...when was it written?

Bottom Line: You are interpreting that Scripture, and you are interpreting it incorrectly, which is why your interpretation leads to contradictions with other passages.

Please read what is written with greater care.


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[whirlwind]

Here is Strong's definition of the Greek word that Whirlwind fails to understand:[INDENT]2730 katoike,w katoikeo {kat-oy-keh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to dwell, settle 1a) metaph. divine powers, influences, etc., are said to dwell in his soul, to pervade, prompt, govern it 2) to dwell in, inhabit 2a) God is said to dwell in the temple, i.e. to be always present for worshippers

And...what temple would that be? The one made with hands? No, not according to the Bible.

The fact that Whirlwind denies "interpreting" Acts 17:24 indicates that he is fundamentally ignorant in the grossest possible way. He does not even admit that words have different meanings dependent upon context. Yet he presents his interpretations as "not interpretations" even as he denies the plain interpretation as it has been understood by students of Scripture for nearly 2000 years. This is a vast, swelling arrogance unlike anything I have ever seen.

The fact that you fail to read with understanding shows that you are simply ready to throw stones at a child of God. This isn't a good thing...tread carefully.



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