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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    That was The Age of The Law that Jesus Christ was born under and Died Under. that was 'The World' and Covenant that was waxing old and fading away.




    Are you King David? he is the one who wrote the 23rd Psalm, about himself.


    No...I'm not king David or the queen of Sheba. But, He feeds me Brother Les. I sit at His table each day.



    Your impression of what and when is the 'End' is to be, is in error. This is why I think that you can not move beyond the mindset of a 10 years old. I know that it is ingrained in your mind and you are blind to the hermeneutical understanding of Scripture.


    Oh gosh, and we were getting on so well. Did you have to add the "10 years old?"



    You are not the 'First person' subject of the NT, you (we) are 2,000 years beyond that. What was written to 'them' (first Century) would be false letters and false Hope, for they all believed and understood that 'the time of The End' (the Bible never says End of Time) was upon their Generation and it was. If it was not for the First Century Peoples then Jesus Christ and His Apostles were lying to them from the Books of Acts to Revelation. by Jesus and the Apostles lying to their First Century Audience, then it conveys the facts forward that none of the words in the NT or OT are believable for anything.


    I believe each Word. He didn't lie to them or us. 70AD is a false belief.



    .

  2. #102
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    Whirlwind
    70AD is a false belief.
    Do you know what the 70AD 'belief' is?


    Oh gosh, and we were getting on so well. Did you have to add the "10 years old?"

    What age do you want me to put on for one who can only drink milk and is not to the point of eating meat?
    Last edited by Brother Les; 02-10-2011 at 11:34 AM.
    Brother Les

  3. #103
    Originally posted by Whirlwind

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brother Les
    The Abomination (that makes desolate) could only be in the Holy Place. This can only be in the Holy of Holies of Harods Temple. This Abomination was the murder (blood spilt in the Holy of Holies) of all of the Temple Priests by the Edomean Army that was inside the Jerusalem wall during the Jewish Wars.

    The abomination is in the holy place.....the holy place is not nor ever has been the buildings of the temple:

    Deuteronomy 26:19 And to make thee high above all nations which He hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as He hath spoken.

    Psalm 86:2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save Thy servant that trusteth in thee.

    1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

    Leviticus 11:44-45 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

    He is still bringing us out of the land of Egypt today Brother Les. Egypt is symbolic of the world and it's carnal pleasures. He asks us to leave it behind....

    Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    The biblical meaning of the Abomination of Desolation:

    By definition, the Abomination of Desolation is something abhorrent to God that will bring to ruin or to devastation.

    When we study and search the Bible comparing scripture with scripture, we find that in almost all instances where the Hebrew word translated abomination (shiqquwts) is found, it is dealing in some way with God's people falling away or forsaking him to serve the gods of the heathen nations.” In other words, it clearly illustrates the spiritual idolatry of the Lord's people in turning away from him to serve false gods. It is in this context that we find that the disgusting (abominable) thing that God hates is his people going after false gods. It is this abomination that will leave them in ruin (desolate). There are many scriptures with examples of this abomination. 2 Chron. 15:8; 1 Kings 11:5; Jer. 7:30,31; Lev. 26:30-32.

    "Desolation" is the judgment that God decrees upon his people who go after the false gods or idols of the unbelievers. And that Hebrew word translated "desolation" is (shamem), the exact same word used in Daniel's prophesy of the “abomination that makes desolate.” It means “to be brought to ruin.” This abomination of God's people going after false gods brings his judgment that would leave them destitute or destroyed. The Biblical precedent is set in Leviticus, and is carried out all through the scriptures. This principle is not only seen in Old Testament testimony, it continues into the New Testament. Abomination standing in God's house will make it a forsaken place deprived of God's blessings. (1st Cor. 3:10-13; 2 Thess. 2:3).

    God bless---Twospirits
    Last edited by Twospirits; 02-10-2011 at 12:22 PM.
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post

    As Luke's writings, along with all others, were Divinely inspired, then there is a reason for the differences being shown. They are clues for us to search out.

    Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.


    (NASB) Luke 1:1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, 3 it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; 4 so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

    Since Luke was much closer to the event than you, and since his account was based on what he learned directly from the eyewitnesses, I'll have to take his word over yours.



    I don't ask you to take my word Tom...ever. It is His Word we discuss and anything I say, or you say, must be documented in His Word.

    By comparing the synoptics we find in Luke a clue to clarify "buildings of the temple" and "great buildings." After his careful investigation based on what he had received from the eyewitnesses, he used the word "temple." Have another look:

    (NASB) Luke 21:5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, 6 "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."

    No walls, outbuildings, tool sheds, etc. Obviously the Word accepts "temple" as all inclusive of the phrases Matthew and Mark used. Preterists and most futurists accept this, but your private interpretation of Matthew and Mark force you to reject the plain explanation (clue) given by Luke.





    From a couple of sites when Googling "wailing wall."

    The Wailing Wall or Western Wall is the remains of the great Jewish temple, which had stood for close to 500 years. Herod began rebuilding and adding on to the temple in approximately 19 B.C.E., and the total work was not finished until fifty years later. The temple itself was destroyed by the Romans only a few years after its completion, circa 70 C.E.


    The Western Wall in the midst of the Old City in Jerusalem is the section of the Western supporting wall of the Temple Mount which has remained intact since the destruction of the Second Jerusalem Temple (70 C.E.). It became the most sacred spot in Jewish religious and national consciousness and tradition by virtue of its proximity to the Western Wall of the Holy of Holies in the Temple, from which, according to numerous sources, the Divine Presence never departed. It became a center of mourning over the destruction of the Temple and Israel's exile, on the one hand, and of religious - in 20th century also national - communion with the memory of Israel's former glory and the hope for its restoration, on the other. Because of the former association, it became known in European languages as the "Wailing Wall".



    It is part of the buildings of the temple. It is "one stone upon another."
    Do you accept those as unbiased and authoritative sources, especially considering the part in red? I've also found some that claim the measurements arriving at the exact location of the mount are wrong. These of course are those that say the exact location is NOT under Muslim control, thus the 3rd temple can be built now! I previously cited the 1st century eyewitness Josephus Wars 7.1.1 which included:

    ... Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. ...
    As a devout Jew he had no bias to support any Christian - and certainly no Preterist - position. According to him it was part of a city wall that was left. No mention of any part of the temple or the mount retaining wall left standing. Of course, we can't be certain that city wall is what remains today. The links Joe gave could offer some insight if that city wall was subsequently destroyed after Josephus time. As for the 1st century temple and mount retaining wall, there are no stones upon another that were not thrown down.

    I know you won't consider any possibility that you are wrong, I post mainly for the many inactive readers of this forum. Having come full circle on this sub-topic, I'll just encourage all to study these things through keeping the 1st century relevance in mind.
    Blessings, Tom Case

    Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Do you know what the 70AD 'belief' is?





    What age do you want me to put on for one who can only drink milk and is not to the point of eating meat?


    Oh Brother Les, I think you have had some pretty hefty rib eyes served to you. Bon ape'tit.



  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    The biblical meaning of the Abomination of Desolation:

    By definition, the Abomination of Desolation is something abhorrent to God that will bring to ruin or to devastation.

    When we study and search the Bible comparing scripture with scripture, we find that in almost all instances where the Hebrew word translated abomination (shiqquwts) is found, it is dealing in some way with 'God's people falling away or forsaking him to serve the gods of the heathen nations.' In other words, it clearly illustrates the spiritual idolatry of the Lord's people in turning away from him to serve false gods. It is in this context that we find that the disgusting (abominable) thing that God hates is his people going after false gods. It is this abomination that will leave them in ruin (desolate). There are many scriptures with examples of this abomination. 2 Chron. 15:8; 1 Kings 11:5; Jer. 7:30,31; Lev. 26:30-32.

    "Desolation" is the judgment that God decrees upon his people who go after the false gods or idols of the unbelievers. And that Hebrew word translated "desolation" is (shamem), the exact same word used in Daniel's prophesy of the 'abomination that makes desolate.' It means 'to be brought to ruin.' This abomination of God's people going after false gods brings his judgment that would leave them destitute or destroyed. The Biblical precedent is set in Leviticus, and is carried out all through the scriptures. This principle is not only seen in Old Testament testimony, it continues into the New Testament. Abomination standing in God's house will make it a forsaken place deprived of God's blessings. (1st Cor. 3:10-13; 2 Thess. 2:3).

    God bless---Twospirits

    That is fascinating! So, I may well be seeing this correctly.

    The abomination of desolation could be our own carnal nature standing in God's house...not recognizing or admitting that it is our own self that needs to change. Therein we see the foolish virgins as well as those He will tell...."get away, I never knew you."

    Thank you Twospirits...this was a keeper.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Rose, where was the ark of the covenant in the above passages? Was it in a temple made of stone?

    He does dwell IN Zion and He does dwell IN Jerusalem. They are His temple...for they are His children.



    .
    Hi Whirlwind,

    I knew you were going to answer in that manner...

    1. Where was the ark of the covenant in the above passages? In the verse I quoted below it is clearly seen that first God instructs the Jews to make a mercy seat of pure gold, then put two cherubim of gold to cover the mercy seat, and it is between those cherubim above the mercy seat, that God's presence dwells and he communes with his people.
    Exo.25:17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof...20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be....22) And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
    2. Was it in a temple made of stone? As you well know the first Tabernacle was not made of stone, but rather it was made of cloth, animal skins, and wood....it still being a house of God made by human hands.

    3. He does dwell IN Zion and He does dwell IN Jerusalem. They are His temple...for they are His children. Are you saying that in Old Covenant times God dwelt in the hearts of men in the same manner as in New Covenant times?

    Blessings,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    Yes, that is correct. The literal destruction in 70AD was a type, an example, of what will occur spiritually.
    1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
    However, when you say "standing in Jerusalem today," I see that spiritually too.

    Is Islam (in the literal Jerusalem) part of this? Yes, but the greater part is the deception of those standing among us, "standing in Jerusalem." We are His holy city and in our midst now are the antichrists pretending to be of us. They stand at pulpits, they speak from our televisions, they teach on forums, they write books...deceiving all that will allow it. The abomination stands in the holy place.


    And THAT IS INTERPRETATION.


    .
    I'm glad you admitted that it is an interpretation! Unfortunately, it does not cohere with your other interpretations. You deny that the Bible made any prophecies about the "destruction of 70 AD" so there is nothing "written for our admonition" relating to it. Therefore, "destruction of 70 AD" is not a Biblical type of anything.

    And besides that, your interpretation is pure speculation. It has no foundation in Scripture.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
    That is fascinating! So, I may well be seeing this correctly.

    The abomination of desolation could be our own carnal nature standing in God's house...not recognizing or admitting that it is our own self that needs to change. Therein we see the foolish virgins as well as those He will tell...."get away, I never knew you."

    Thank you Twospirits...this was a keeper.
    Where in the book of Daniel do we find all that?
    Blessings, Tom Case

    Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    A divine whirlwind? I'd be very careful with my choice of words Cheow. If whirlwind is speaking the truth, then you might be correct. But sense it is obvious he is not speaking the truth, as all of us have proven thus far, then his presence here is far from divine intervention.

    1. Jesus is the invisible temple that is still standing on the Temple Mount and it will never be destroyed.
    2. What we see currently on the Temple Mount is the Dome of the Rock, the Aqsa Mosque and the wailing wall, the residential buildings...these are the buildings on the temple Mount.


    OMG! This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Matthew 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13. What does the body of Christ (temple) have to do with Matthew 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13? Now we know that Jesus concluded His explanation to the Apostles about the coming Kingdom, which actually began at Pentecost, and was culminated in 70AD, AFTER the destruction of the temple. The dome of the rock, wailing wall, etc. all have absolutely NOTHING to do with this discussion. So in what way does this make his insights divine? In case you haven't seen it, the Discovery Channel has a show on a few months back that suggested the same possibility, that God is permitting the Jews, the Muslims, and the Christians to live there in an attempt to unite all the races. The problem with this idea is that it promotes individualism, and not Christianity. Serving God outside of Christ gets you nowhere. Now I would agree that it may be possible for Muslims or Jews who reside near the Dome of the Rock to become "exposed" to Christianity, and from there gain salvation; that idea I can accept. Other than that, your suggestions of what Whirlwind is trying to say has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

    All you're really doing is complementing him because he's a Futurist. If you have to "TRY" to understand what he's saying, then it's quite clear that he hasn't been answering our questions directly, thus proving my point that he attempts to portray an Angel of light, when he's nothing more than a spirit of confusion, much like a literal "whirlwind".

    Joe
    Just to ask a question, are we all here in this BW forum by design or by chance? I would say by design not by chance; you think God don't know we are here debating on His words? See the verses :

    Luke 12: 2 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.
    4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

    8 “I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.


    All you're really doing is complementing him because he's a Futurist.
    Are' not preterists doing the same with their fellow preterists, complementing them for their posts....let's not be biased.

    Although I do believe that every stone of the Temple have been thrown down but the end is yet to come and it did not happened in AD 70, I must complement whirlwind for his new perspective which have never cross my mind. To me. the destruction of the temple was the start of the Christian age and the disapora of the jews and this is what I believe is the preterist's term for end of the Mosaic Covenant and the start of the New Covenant. I will certainly shelve whirlwind's new perspective and not condemn him as what the preterists here are doing....do not judge a brother just because his perspective is different from yours....or YOU be judged.

    Thanks whirlwind.

    Many Blessings.
    Last edited by CWH; 02-11-2011 at 02:26 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
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