What is "This Generation?"

[whirlwind]

Yes, Rose, I'm sure he knows that! But it's completely irrelevant because the Bible NEVER uses the word "Temple" to describe the the stupid pile of rocks called the Temple! Never! Not once! Here, let me prove it to you:

1 Kings 6:7 And the temple, when it was being built, was built with stone finished at the quarry, so that no hammer or chisel or any iron tool was heard in the temple while it was being built.

Hope that helps you understand the "mind" of Whirlwind.

The buildings of the temple were built with stone...one stone upon another. Did the Lord dwell in the buildings of the temple? Did the Lord ask Solomon to construct the buildings of the temple? No. He tells us where He dwells....

1 Kings 6:13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake My people Israel.

Several times I have quoted one of the following verses but feel it is now necessary to quote the entire passage. Perhaps it will help you understand the mind of Whirlwind and why I agree with the written Word of God and know that 70AD was not the fulfillment of a prophecy of the end of the world/age.

Acts 7:47-48 But Solomon built Him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool: what house will ye build Me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of My rest? Hath not My hand made all these things? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

He dwells in those that have been translated into heaven, into the "kingdom of His dear Son." That translation takes place while we walk the earth.

Please see what is written.



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[TheForgiven]

The buildings of the temple were built with stone...one stone upon another. Did the Lord dwell in the buildings of the temple? Did the Lord ask Solomon to construct the buildings of the temple? No. He tells us where He dwells....


1 Kings 6:13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake My people Israel.
Several times I have quoted one of the following verses but feel it is now necessary to quote the entire passage. Perhaps it will help you understand the mind of Whirlwind and why I agree with the written Word of God and know that 70AD was not the fulfillment of a prophecy of the end of the world/age.


Acts 7:47-48 But Solomon built Him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool: what house will ye build Me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of My rest? Hath not My hand made all these things? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.


He dwells in those that have been translated into heaven, into the "kingdom of His dear Son." That translation takes place while we walk the earth.

Please see what is written.

You're not telling us anything we don't already know. God does not dwell in temples made of brick and stone; he dwells within us and this is the reality of His Kingdom that came more than 2000 years ago. Why do you discuss this to us as though we don't know this? And what does this have to do with Matthew 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13? Jesus was merely telling them that the temple they grew up with, that was made of Stone, was going to be destroyed. What's so difficult about this to you? I'm beginning to wonder if anyone here should even consider taking you seriuos.

Joe

[whirlwind]

I’m sorry my friend, but He did not say that. According to Luke, they were walking out of the temple, and it was then that the Apostles remarked about the beautiful stones and decorations of the Temple. It was then that Jesus exclaimed, 'Do you see all these things….the days will come when not one stone will be left upon another'. As for the Mount of Olives, that’s where they stopped, and it was then that the Apostles privately asked, 'when shall this happen, and what is the sign that these things will take place…'; these questions were asked in response to Christ’s exclamation, 'Not one stone shall be left upon another'.

And...is one stone left upon another? Yes indeed they are.

Therefore, the Mount of Olives is not where they admired the buildings, nor was this the area where Jesus said, 'Do you see all these things?' The Mount of Olives is where they went to after departing the temple, and THAT’S when the Apostles asked Him the questions.

And that is where He explained when all these things would come to their end. The sign of His coming. The end of the world. It hasn't happened yet. A clue for those that remain deceived by those that come in His name is.....One stone stands upon another.

Do the beautiful stones and donations have anything to do with the temple? Of course it does! Why wouldn’t I believe that? Is there something written there that I’m not seeing? Or are you merely going beyond what is written? In Matthew 23, Jesus points out how a little old woman gave all that she had, being worth than ½ of an American penny. The Apostles remarked how the beauty of the Temple could not have been accomplished without the gifts from the rich. THAT is why Jesus stated that the time would come that the gifts from the rich that contributed to the beauty of the temple, would all come to nothing [paraphrasing]. In my opinion, Christ was trying to show how the wealth from the rich that went to the temple, should have gone to help the old woman who gave all that she had. She, and those like her, were more important that the physical constructs of a man-made temple. James alludes to this in his writing, denoting how the Jews who failed to pay good wages, would rot in their clothes; their money testifying against them [paraphrasing].

Without the donations and gifts from the rich, the beauty of the temple itself would not have been possible. The Temple was a fascination to the Romans, as well as past Empires who conquered Jerusalem. It’s attraction is what kept Jerusalem’s interest alive, and the Jews knew it. That’s why they took great pride, care, and joy to up-keeping the temple; it was their entire livelihood. 70AD turned all of that around, and most of them threw themselves into the flames as the Temple burned to their agony. Thus, as Jesus predicted, the beautiful stones and decorations that made up their very livelihood, had been tossed to the flames; every stone and decoration of the temple had been brought down. No stone was left un-turned as the Roman soldiers sought for melted gold and silver through the burnt rubble/remains of what used to be called 'the Temple of God'.

Christ came with the clouds and fulfilled what the Jews ignored, and accused Jesus of Blasphemy:

Matthew 26:
And the high priest answered and said to Him, 'I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!' 64 Jesus said to him, 'It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.' 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, 'He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?'

It totally blows my mind away how Futurists today do not even understand what the Pharisees understood. The coming of God in clouds is an Old Testament phrase. Jeremiah chapter 7 uses this very same language. After Jesus tells the Pharisees that He is the Son of God, and that they would see Him sitting at the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of Heaven, they knew exactly what he was talking about. Thus, because only GOD comes with the clouds (speaking of war and destruction), then Jesus was in essence, declaring Himself to be God. Their response was 'WHAT BLASPHEMY!' Jesus was being charged for Blasphemy for making Himself equal to God by claiming to later come in the clouds of Heaven, and by sitting at the right hand of power. This came true in 70AD, when Jesus came in the power of heaven, and the clouds that engulfed all Israel, left Jerusalem totally destroyed; the temple and its treasury came to nothing.

The destruction seen in 70AD was not "Jesus coming in the power of heaven." The temple stands. Jerusalem is not destroyed. Jesus dwells in His clouds but He hasn't yet returned to stand on the mount of Olives. And...one stone stands upon another.

On a side note, I've got to say something. In a very big way, you remind me of Henry. Both you and Henry like to smother your discussions with mystery, instead of being straight forward, because you think that somehow being mysterious makes you some kind of philosophical Prophet. I don’t mean to be rude to either of you, but this tactic is absurd, and does not belong in a debating environment. I’ve studied God’s word for years, and even to this day, after 30+ years as a student, I’m still learning awesome things, yet by no means do I claim to know it all. But when I see folks such as yourselves, acting too mysterious and refusing to answer questions because you try likening yourself to Christ’s allegorical nature, I grow sickened to my stomach in total disgust.

Try some Pepto...

This is a forum for debating. None of us are perfect. But please answer all questions directly, without the Apostolic mysticism. Richard asked you the same questions more than three times, and you STILL have not answered it! And please refrain from comments, "No interpretation is required....." Simply replying to what is written IS NOT answering a question. When you offer an interpretation, it must be backed with contextual sources; more specifically, prove your interpretation to be within its context as I have done above.

With the best of sincerety,

Joe

My words have been proven....now it is up to you to see what is written.



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[whirlwind]

You're not telling us anything we don't already know. God does not dwell in temples made of brick and stone; he dwells within us and this is the reality of His Kingdom that came more than 2000 years ago. Why do you discuss this to us as though we don't know this? And what does this have to do with Matthew 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13? Jesus was merely telling them that the temple they grew up with, that was made of Stone, was going to be destroyed. What's so difficult about this to you? I'm beginning to wonder if anyone here should even consider taking you seriuos.

Joe

No Joe. That is the reality that has always been. He NEVER dwelt in the buildings of the temple. For that reason, the pile of rubble seen in 70AD cannot be used as a marker, as preterist insist upon doing, for the end of the world.



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[Rose]

The buildings of the temple were built with stone...one stone upon another. Did the Lord dwell in the buildings of the temple? Did the Lord ask Solomon to construct the buildings of the temple? No. He tells us where He dwells....

1 Kings 6:13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake My people Israel.

Several times I have quoted one of the following verses but feel it is now necessary to quote the entire passage. Perhaps it will help you understand the mind of Whirlwind and why I agree with the written Word of God and know that 70AD was not the fulfillment of a prophecy of the end of the world/age.

Acts 7:47-48 But Solomon built Him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool: what house will ye build Me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of My rest? Hath not My hand made all these things? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

He dwells in those that have been translated into heaven, into the "kingdom of His dear Son." That translation takes place while we walk the earth.

Please see what is written.



.

Oh, no....<warning,warning,warning> we have Biblical confusion!

Exo.25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Lev.16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

Jos.22:9 Notwithstanding, if the land of your possession be unclean, thenpass ye over unto the land of the possession of the LORD, wherein the LORD'S tabernacle dwelleth, and take possession among us: but rebel not against the LORD, nor rebel against us, in building you an altar beside the altar of the LORD our God.

1 Kings 6:7 And the temple, when it was being built, was built with stone finished at the quarry, so that no hammer or chisel or any iron tool was heard in the temple while it was being built.

Psalm 9:11 Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings.

Psalm 135:21 Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.

Could God have dwelt among his people, and in the Temple made of stone....oh, and also in heaven all at the same time?

Blessings,
Rose

[TheForgiven]

Okay, let's "take a look at Mark's accout."



Mark 13:1 And as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples saith unto Him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
Where is "here?" What are the buildings and stones being spoken of? The buildings of the temple...all of it. And, Jesus replied....

'Here' is outside of the temple. If you are inside of a house, and you walk out, as soon as you turn around, you are looking at the house. Now if you walked several hundred or thousand feet from coming outside of your house, you are then looking at the entire neighborhood. This appears to be what you’re suggesting is that, although the Apostles were pointing out the Temple decorations and its construction, you believe that Jesus expanded on this by stating 'the buildings' as representing the entire 'neighborhood', figuratively speaking; by this I mean the entire temple complex. Thus, you are 'INFERING' to us that Jesus was not just speaking about the temple, but the entire temple complex. But within the context alone, as you quote above from Mark 13, in conjunction to Luke 21, it is clear they were not looking at the 'neighborhood', but the temple building itself. Otherwise, Luke’s account would not match Matthew or Marks if we are to assume that 'the buildings' did not just include the temple, but every connecting structure of the temple. But as I have just shown, they were just INSIDE of the temple, and as they walked OUT OF THE TEMPLE….Get that? THEY WERE WALKING OUT OF THE TEMPLE, thus indicating that the temple is what they were talking about. For if the entire complex and all of its buildings were called 'the temple', then how could they have walked out of it? They would in essence still be within the temple.

Thus the 'buildings and stones being spoken of' were of the temple itself, just as Luke describes. The outer-courts, the foundation, the gates and its walls, etc. were not in discussion here, as you would have is believe because of the wailing wall theory.

13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Not building (singular) but buildings (plural). All the buildings would be thrown down AND not "one stone upon another," would be left. When? What was the time frame in which this would take place? And, Jesus replied....

Yes, this we know, but it’s how you’re 'INTERPRETING' the phrase 'these great buildings' as the entire temple complex; the text is not suggesting that. The main point of their discussion was the temple and its decorations which constitutes a 'building'. You are also defining 'buildings' is the entire temple complex, as though the entire temple complex must be left without one stone upon another. On a side note, we believe this happened as there is no physical, genuine evidence of any stones from the 1st century temple; only a 16th century myth based on a former trash-dump site used by Christians from what was formerly in the area of the western wall of Fort Antonia.

13:3-6 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
His first comment, when answering them about the time of His coming was....about deception, about men in His name, men saying they are of Christ, Christians deceiving many. One of the deceptions would be about the time when "shall these things be."

So His disciples (of which we are included) would not be deceived...He told them plainly, clearly, succintly....not "one stone upon another" would be standing when the end of the world/age arrived.

Yep, and that happened; there were many deceivers that were gone out into the world. John attests to this in his own letter when he denotes how it was the last hour. But there is much more to it than that. Jesus also stated that they would be dragged from counsel to counsel, and from city to city, and that some of them would be persecuted and killed. Did this happen? Yep it sure did, thus giving us proof that 70AD was on its way. He also said that nation would rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. Did this happen? Of course it did. Rome and all its surrounding nations were in a huge state of turmoil, to also include Jerusalem. He also said that earth quakes, and famines would occur. Did this happen? Yet, it did. Samaria and many other regions, to also include Israel, were struck with plagues and diseases that killed thousands. Not to mention the famine that hit Jerusalem when they were embanked, JUST as the Lord predicted; this led to women eating their own children.

All of these things happened as the Lord predicted, thus leading to the 'buildings of the temple' being brought down; not one stone was left un-turned.

The burden of proof rests upon you, that your only source for rejecting 70AD relevance to Matthew 24 rests on a single wall; the wailing wall. IS THIS WALL 100% Jewish built for Herod’s temple.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

No Joe. That is the reality that has always been. He NEVER dwelt in the buildings of the temple. For that reason, the pile of rubble seen in 70AD cannot be used as a marker, as preterist insist upon doing, for the end of the world.

Yes, you are correct, although He did manifest Himself in Solomon's temple until Solomon sinned. But that isn't the point. This has nothing to do with Matthew 24, and you've yet to explain your connection of this topic (God dwelling in temples) with that of Matthew 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13.

If you're only point is that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD did not mark the "end of the Age", then obviously there is a problem. Because the end of the age would happen immediately after the distress of those days (Matthew 24), and after the destruction of Jerusalem; it all happens in one sequence of events, from the persecution of the Apostles, to God avenging their persecution upon the same Harlot that crucified Jesus on the cross, resulting in their utter and complete destruction in 70AD.

On a side note, can you please explain why Luke and Mark did not include the phrase "end of the Age", yet they received the same set of answeres as Matthew?

Joe

[whirlwind]

Oh, no....<warning,warning,warning> we have Biblical confusion!

Exo.25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Lev.16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

Jos.22:9 Notwithstanding, if the land of your possession be unclean, thenpass ye over unto the land of the possession of the LORD, wherein the LORD'S tabernacle dwelleth, and take possession among us: but rebel not against the LORD, nor rebel against us, in building you an altar beside the altar of the LORD our God.

1 Kings 6:7 And the temple, when it was being built, was built with stone finished at the quarry, so that no hammer or chisel or any iron tool was heard in the temple while it was being built.

Psalm 9:11 Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings.

Psalm 135:21 Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.

Could God have dwelt among his people, and in the Temple made of stone....oh, and also in heaven all at the same time?

Blessings,
Rose

Rose, where was the ark of the covenant in the above passages? Was it in a temple made of stone?

He does dwell IN Zion and He does dwell IN Jerusalem. They are His temple...for they are His children.



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[whirlwind]

'The burden of proof rests upon you, that your only source for rejecting 70AD relevance to Matthew 24 rests on a single wall; the wailing wall. IS THIS WALL 100% Jewish built for Herod’s temple.

Joe

It is hardly the only reason to reject that misguided doctrine. I am focusing on it as it is the one preterist use to "prove" their point when...as has been shown...it cannot be used if one is honest with oneself.

Doing that is a decision each of us are required to reach in this flesh age. It is the age of our being proven. Will we be deceived...or will we accept His Words?


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[Twospirits]

Originally posted by Whirlwind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
Hi Whirlwind, question, how do you see the Olivet Discourse played out?

God bless---Twospirits


When the disciples asked about the end of the world....

Matthew 24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?

His first warning was....

24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Many come in His name, saying they are Christian...perhaps even belieivng they are. But they deceive many. Deception IS the great tribulation. He tells us there are wars, nations and kingdoms fighting, famine, earthquakes, etc. That is always part of this world...it is not a sign of the end but their increase is "the beginning of sorrows."

The part that pertains to us, showing us our destiny as His elect is....

24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.


That is NOW,TODAY....we are here speaking, teaching, writing for His name's sake. That is our destiny as part of the many "two witnesses." (two groups of witnesses). It is important to know that the affliction and killing is spiritual. Have some witnessing for Him been literally killed? Yes and more will but overall we wage a spiritual battle. The killing is figurative....as in being banned from a forum, thrown out of a church group, families laughing at your teaching, etc.

24:15-18 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


We are given to see, understand, certain things at certain times. I now see the above as....when we see/understand that the abomination is no more than false prophets standing among God's children, standing "in the holy place," then...get out of Dodge! Leave their deception behind.

His watchmen are "on the housetop" warning and they should not go back into their house to listen to anything being said. Rather...hear the Word of the Lord. And, we as His watchmen better be fully prepared...wearing our linen garments of righteousness because there will be no going back.

24:19-20 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


That refers to those impregnated with Satan's deception and nursing along his vile religion. The winter reference I believe is...not to be taken out of season, to wait and be His firstfruit properly matured. In other words, don't line up to be raptured away.

24:21-22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


The great tribulation is a time of great deception. The time has been shortened to the last five months of this age. It's gonn'a be a doozy. The only way to be kept from his "hour of temptation," is by knowing how it's going to happen. Knowing he'll be here in place of the Savior.

24:23-25 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.

24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And then....the wrath is spilled. The end of the age...as predicted when He sat on the mount of Olives looking toward the buildings of the temple.


Bless you too TwoSpirits.

Whirlwind, please correct me if I'm wrong. By your post here I take it to mean you see the entire Olivet Discourse (Matthew, Mark and Luke) as being future in fulfillment to our day because of what we see "still standing" in Jerusalem today. That this Discourse is not related whatsoever to the fall of Jerusalem and the buildings of the temple in 70 A.D. That what Jesus prophesies here in the Discourse is meant to be "an end of the age" fulfillment. Is this correct?

God bless---Twospirits