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  1. #1

    The amazing division between M and N.

    Hello Bible studyers. I am wondering if this division between the letters M and N can be found anywhere else. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where else I can find more information about this. Thank you

    Son.................of................M........a.. ......N

    A...B...C...D........................M............ ......N....................X....Y.....Z
    1...2...3...4........................13........... ......14...................24...25...26
    ....................................."the alphabet middle"

    Alph...Beta...Gama...............M................ ..N.............................Omega
    ..1.......2........3.................12........... .......13..............................24
    ...................................."Greek alphabet middle"

    Gen....Ex.....Lev...............Micah............. ..Nahum.......................Rev
    ..1......2.......3...................33........... ........34............................66
    ..................................."Protestant Bible middle"

    4000BC....3000BC...2000BC.....Jesus Christ.....1000AD...2000AD..3000AD
    ................." Jesus Christ is in middle of calendar, between BC and AD

    Jesus Christ often referred to the "Son of Man." the center of the word "Man" is between the M and N. Our modern English language alphabet is also laid out in this fashion with it's center between the M and N. More than 2000 years ago the Greek alphabet with which the story of Jesus is originally written is also divided with the M and N. Both the Old Testament Hebrew Bible and our modern Protestant Bible are also divided exactly between an M and N. Jesus is the Messiah and was crucified in the center of history as our calendar shows. In the Aramaic, Greek and even in German the word "messa" means middle or center. Even in English the word "messenger" connotates the one who joins two others or middleman.

    So maybe that is why the book of Micah begins by saying " the Lord cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth."(Jerusalem to be exact)Micah 1;3 The book of Nahum meanwhile begins with the words " the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth,...." Nahum 1;2

  2. #2
    I wonder if I missed a simple point in this demonstration, or can no one else see it's amazing significance?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan b View Post
    I wonder if I missed a simple point in this demonstration, or can no one else see it's amazing significance?
    It looks interesting, but I'm not sure I see the "significance" since it is not a general pattern that extends to the entire Bible. Also, it doesn't quite work with the Hebrew alphabet which is divided between the 11th and 12th letters Kaph and Lamed.

    So what do you think the significance is, and why?
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  4. #4
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    Also the Hebrew Alphabet has for its beginning, middle and end the letters AMTh, which mean "Truth".

    AMTh = 441
    44+1 (and 4+41) = 45

    ADM = 45 (Adam) This is significant because-

    441 + 1 (Kolel) = 442

    BA'aL ShM, meaning "Master of the Name" which is a Kabbalist who has mastered the spiritual uses of the names of God.

    In Full:

    ALP = 111 MYM = 90 ThV = 406
    Total = 607

    ADM HRAShVN = 607, meaning essentially "Adam the First"
    ZRTh = 607, meaning essentially "Span" as in the span of the Alef-bet, but also Adam as the Span of Heaven.

    6+0+7 = 13, AChD meaning Unity
    60+7 = 67, BYNH, meaning Understanding

    Finally, 607 + 1 (for the Kolel) is 608, ThRCh, the father of Abraham

    So we see that the idea of beginning, middle and end has many important connections. The Middle properly is M, with L and N to either side. Together these form LMN, and have a value of 120, which is the value of the word/letter SMK, meaning "Prop" or "Support" which makes sense in a literal way, that the center most letters prop up and support that which comes before and after, or perhaps balances them.

    Perhaps significantly as well is that LMN means "Liquids/Letters" according to the dictionary of Reuben Alcalay. We know that the letters are seen as vessels which contain the Light like a cup would contain liquid.

    Hope this helps!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gematria View Post
    Also the Hebrew Alphabet has for its beginning, middle and end the letters AMTh, which mean "Truth".

    AMTh = 441
    44+1 (and 4+41) = 45

    ADM = 45 (Adam) This is significant because-

    441 + 1 (Kolel) = 442

    BA'aL ShM, meaning "Master of the Name" which is a Kabbalist who has mastered the spiritual uses of the names of God.

    In Full:

    ALP = 111 MYM = 90 ThV = 406
    Total = 607

    ADM HRAShVN = 607, meaning essentially "Adam the First"
    ZRTh = 607, meaning essentially "Span" as in the span of the Alef-bet, but also Adam as the Span of Heaven.

    6+0+7 = 13, AChD meaning Unity
    60+7 = 67, BYNH, meaning Understanding

    Finally, 607 + 1 (for the Kolel) is 608, ThRCh, the father of Abraham

    So we see that the idea of beginning, middle and end has many important connections. The Middle properly is M, with L and N to either side. Together these form LMN, and have a value of 120, which is the value of the word/letter SMK, meaning "Prop" or "Support" which makes sense in a literal way, that the center most letters prop up and support that which comes before and after, or perhaps balances them.

    Perhaps significantly as well is that LMN means "Liquids/Letters" according to the dictionary of Reuben Alcalay. We know that the letters are seen as vessels which contain the Light like a cup would contain liquid.

    Hope this helps!
    Hey there Gematria,

    Welcome to our forum!



    Those are some interesting insights. The connection between AMTh and the first, middle, and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet is an excellent symbolic connection since it conveys the idea of truth spanning everything from first to last. The same idea is more commonly represented with the first and last letters as in Aleph Tav, and in Greek Alpha Omega.

    It is interesting that you use the full spelling of MYM = 90. I concur. I've noticed a lot of ambiguity in the full spellings, especially in Hey and Vav as used in a variety of filling of the Tetragrammaton. They use VV = 12 VAV = 13, HH = 10 and HY = 15. And then they create a hierarchy of the "fillings" of the Tetragrammaton using those variations, and then they create associations of each different spelling with one of the four worlds of ABYM. After a while, it begins to seem like pure fiction.

    I notice you used "colel" twice. I do not accept that rule. It means that 1 = 2 = 3 = 4 = 5 = ... and all meaning is lost.

    As for Mem being the middle letter: There is no middle letter in the 22 letter alphabet because the number 22 is even. I see therefore that you are using the 27 letters that includes the five sofit letters adjacent to their normal form. This would mean that the 14th letter, Mem sofit, would be the "middle letter." But this is not the letter used in AMTh, so the pattern doesn't "really" work. And I'm not sure how significant this would be anyway because the sofit letters are often listed at the end in numerical order. I think the true "middle letters" are Kaph and Lamed.

    Anyway ... just sharing some first thoughts. Hope you don't think I was being "critical." Just opening up the conversation and letting you know sorta where I'm coming from.

    Where did you learn your Gematria? Reading books, or by living teacher?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    Hi RAM,

    I was going off the 27 letters not the 22, since their forms are significant even when you don't count the difference in values (IE: Finals, which I almost never use). If you count from Aleph forward 13 spaces, you arrive at Lamed, the next letter being Mem, if you count from Tav backwards 13 spaces, you arrive at Mem final, with the next letter being Mem. This is one way to count the letters at least.

    The Kolel has two interpretations, I use that of the Ari'zal, which is to count +1 for the whole word. So the word AMTh = 441, + 1 for the whole is 442- and it ends there. Though I know there is another Kolel method which is different, the Ari'zal was one of the greatest Kabbalists of all time, as well as a master of Gematria.

    I learned Gematria from reading books and lots of practice. I don't find your comments critical, Gematria is a very flexible system and there are many ways to interpret everything in the Bible, especially within the context of Gematria. Virtually none of the sages agree 100% on all points, thats part of the beauty of the system.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gematria View Post
    Hi RAM,

    I was going off the 27 letters not the 22, since their forms are significant even when you don't count the difference in values (IE: Finals, which I almost never use). If you count from Aleph forward 13 spaces, you arrive at Lamed, the next letter being Mem, if you count from Tav backwards 13 spaces, you arrive at Mem final, with the next letter being Mem. This is one way to count the letters at least.
    Oops! I miscounted because I forgot about Kaph Sofit. You are correct. The 14th letter would be Mem in that case.

    But I still don't feel there is anything to be found in this particular example other than a nice way of expressing a nice idea. It doesn't feel like a truth that was "designed" into the alphabet to me, because it depends on how I choose to order the alphabet to get Mem in the middle. This contrasts with the Aleph Tav which was designed to be a "sign" of God's (Aleph) Covenant (Tav). It is revealed in Scripture and not subject to human manipulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gematria View Post
    The Kolel has two interpretations, I use that of the Ari'zal, which is to count +1 for the whole word. So the word AMTh = 441, + 1 for the whole is 442- and it ends there. Though I know there is another Kolel method which is different, the Ari'zal was one of the greatest Kabbalists of all time, as well as a master of Gematria.
    I understand there is tradition here, and I can respect that. But on the other hand, I know traditions were invented by people, and I just don't see any good reason to be adding a unit to the value of a word. I don't see how it gives more insight. But I'm glad you are talking about it because it touches upon a much larger question. What is the real value of gematria? Merely making "connections" between words that we want to be connected? We could do that with any arbitrary assignment of letters and numbers. Folks go crazy with it using English Gematria and can pretty much arrive at any "identity" they want to "prove" whatever they want. I think it would be very interesting to discuss the general significance of Gematria. I was initially impressed, like most folks, that there was some supernatural "design" in the language that encoded religious truths. But if all we have are lists of words and numbers, then we can prove everything or nothing. There must be more to it than mere lists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gematria View Post
    I learned Gematria from reading books and lots of practice. I don't find your comments critical, Gematria is a very flexible system and there are many ways to interpret everything in the Bible, especially within the context of Gematria. Virtually none of the sages agree 100% on all points, thats part of the beauty of the system.
    You just won the Understatement of the Year Award! Congrats!

    I'm glad you found our forum. There is a lot to discuss.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    It looks interesting, but I'm not sure I see the "significance" since it is not a general pattern that extends to the entire Bible. Also, it doesn't quite work with the Hebrew alphabet which is divided between the 11th and 12th letters Kaph and Lamed.

    So what do you think the significance is, and why?
    Hello RAM, Yes you are correct that the Hebrew alphabet does not center between the letters M and N. But the Hebrew Massoretic Text does.

    ................THE HEBREW MASORETIC TEXT

    ..The Law..............The Prophets.............The Writtings

    1. Genesis.............6. Joshua...................27. Psalms
    2. Exodus..............7. Judges...................28. Proverbs
    3. Leviticus............8. I Samuel................29. Job
    4. Numbers............9. 2 Samuel
    5. Deuteronomy.....10. I Kings..................The five Megillot
    ..........................11. 2 Kings
    ..........................12. Isaiah....................30. Song of Songs
    ..........................13. Jeremiah.................31. Ruth
    ..........................14. Exekiel....................32. Lamentations
    .................................................. ..........33. Ecclesiastes
    ..........................The Twelve...................34. Esther
    .................................................. ..........35. Daniel
    ...........................15. Hosea....................36. Ezra
    ...........................16. Joel.......................37. Nehemiah
    ...........................17. Amos.....................38. I Chronicles
    ...........................18. Obadiah..................39. 2 Chronicles
    ...........................19. Jonah.....................40. Haftaroth
    ...........................20. Micah
    .........(middle-
    ...........................21. Nahum
    ...........................22. Habakkuk
    ...........................23. Zephaniah
    ...........................24. Haggai
    ...........................25. Zechariah
    ...........................26. Malachi

    Isn't this enough to show us that there is also a code embedded into this scheme? When you consider the first most original 77 book Christian Bible which the Orthodox Church still uses today it's center book is Jonah. The Catholic 73 book Vulgate Bible also centers exacty on the book of Jonah. But then the 66 book Protestant bible returns to centering between the M and N just as the Hebrew Masoretic Text does. I personally believe that this scheme of the four Bibles is definity intentional and has much more of a story to tell.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan b View Post
    Hello RAM, Yes you are correct that the Hebrew alphabet does not center between the letters M and N. But the Hebrew Massoretic Text does.

    ................THE HEBREW MASORETIC TEXT

    ..The Law..............The Prophets.............The Writtings

    1. Genesis.............6. Joshua...................27. Psalms
    2. Exodus..............7. Judges...................28. Proverbs
    3. Leviticus............8. I Samuel................29. Job
    4. Numbers............9. 2 Samuel
    5. Deuteronomy.....10. I Kings..................The five Megillot
    ..........................11. 2 Kings
    ..........................12. Isaiah....................30. Song of Songs
    ..........................13. Jeremiah.................31. Ruth
    ..........................14. Exekiel....................32. Lamentations
    .................................................. ..........33. Ecclesiastes
    ..........................The Twelve...................34. Esther
    .................................................. ..........35. Daniel
    ...........................15. Hosea....................36. Ezra
    ...........................16. Joel.......................37. Nehemiah
    ...........................17. Amos.....................38. I Chronicles
    ...........................18. Obadiah..................39. 2 Chronicles
    ...........................19. Jonah.....................40. Haftaroth
    ...........................20. Micah
    .........(middle-
    ...........................21. Nahum
    ...........................22. Habakkuk
    ...........................23. Zephaniah
    ...........................24. Haggai
    ...........................25. Zechariah
    ...........................26. Malachi

    Isn't this enough to show us that there is also a code embedded into this scheme? When you consider the first most original 77 book Christian Bible which the Orthodox Church still uses today it's center book is Jonah. The Catholic 73 book Vulgate Bible also centers exacty on the book of Jonah. But then the 66 book Protestant bible returns to centering between the M and N just as the Hebrew Masoretic Text does. I personally believe that this scheme of the four Bibles is definity intentional and has much more of a story to tell.
    Well, that looks "forced" to me because the Haftorah is not itself a book of the Tanakh. It has 39 books, so the middle is a single book, Micah. Also, the Jews who put together the Tanakh do not count 39 books because they group them together to get 24 books, so then we do get a "two book" middle, but those "two books" now are Ezekiel (12th) and the entire "Book of the 12" (13th). Here's an image of how all these arrangements relate to each other from my article comparing the Christian OT and the Jewish Tanakh:



    I've been studying patterns in the Scriptures for many years, and I can't say that the "M-N" pattern shows any signs of design. I can see how it caught your attention, but it doesn't seem like it will lead to anything significant. I could be wrong of course, and would be happy to pursue this with you where ever it leads.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Well, that looks "forced" to me because the Haftorah is not itself a book of the Tanakh. It has 39 books, so the middle is a single book, Micah. Also, the Jews who put together the Tanakh do not count 39 books because they group them together to get 24 books, so then we do get a "two book" middle, but those "two books" now are Ezekiel (12th) and the entire "Book of the 12" (13th). Here's an image of how all these arrangements relate to each other from my article comparing the Christian OT and the Jewish Tanakh:



    I've been studying patterns in the Scriptures for many years, and I can't say that the "M-N" pattern shows any signs of design. I can see how it caught your attention, but it doesn't seem like it will lead to anything significant. I could be wrong of course, and would be happy to pursue this with you where ever it leads.

    All the best,

    Richard
    Hi Richard, Well to tell you the truth, I myself feel that God has opened up his mysteries even to the unlearned. Therefore, when I walk into a major public lybrary such as the one in London England, Vancouver B.C. or in Berlin and go into the religious section of books I find the above Masoretic Text as the primary example of the Hebrew Text. In fact in most of these and other lybraries I find only this text and nothing else. Now I'm with the common people who do not have accsess or time to find and research every other old and particular copies of Bibles. We must do our reasoning and research from the public common domain. And I myself believe that God expected it to be this way.

    I know that some Hebrews counted their Bible as having 24 books by combining Chronicles and the like. I also can see that when Martin Luther and the King James Bible scholars went back and used the Hebrew Massoretic Text which I have printed above as the one they put into the 66 book Protestant Bible. They used this Massoretic Text for it's contents but they put the books into the order such as the Orthodox and Vulgate Bible arrangement. So it worked out a miracle, the fact that the Protestant bible fits the three headings of the Old Testament Hebrew Bible! And they didn't change any of the books in the arrangement.

    The fact that the Greek Alphabet, the Engish Alphabet, the Hebrew Bible, the Protestant Bible are all centered betwen the M and N. is indeed miraculous! Jesus too is in the center of history as we say BC. and AD. And the center Bible Prophets of Mica and Nahum do indeed proclaim, one the coming and curcifixion of Jesus and the other the revenge that God will take for them killing him. I see it all as miraculous!

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