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  1. #1
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    Pentecost and the 144,000

    The Bible was designed in every detail by the Lord God Almighty. He established His fundamental doctrines on repeating patterns. This is how we know when we have a correct interpretation - it is confirmed by many witnesses.

    I am in the midst of receiving a new and wonderful understanding of the 144,000. It is becoming clear that they represent the literal Jewish believers who were sealed at Pentecost in the first century. The number is probably symbolic, but it could be literal. Here are a few of the parallels between the 144,000 and the Jewish Believers sealed at Pentecost.

    The first parallel:
    • The 144,000 were from all 12 Tribes of Israel. The list of tribes is very specific.
    • The Jewish Believers at Pentecost were from all the nations of the earth. The list of nations is very specific.
    The fact that the 144,000 were described with a very specific list of names of the tribes suggests that God gathered the remnant of the Ten Lost Tribes of the house of Israel and joined them to the house of Judah in Messiah Jesus at Pentecost, thus fulfilling all the prophecies that predicted their future reunion. Thus, the New Covenant of Jeremaih 31 and Hebrews 8 speaks of the two houses reunited in one covenant which is the New Covenant in Jesus Christ, and this links to Isaiah 11:

    Isaiah 11:9-12 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
    The "first time" God regathered His people was after the Babylonian exile. The "second time" was at Pentecost. We know Isaiah 11 is speaking of the Gospel because it says the Gentiles would be included. It is particularly intriguing that there is an overlap in the nations listed in Acts 2 and Isaiah 11. They are the only two passages in the entire Bible that mention both Egypt and Elam, and the other names are variations describing the four quarters surrounding Jerusalem. This further links to the prophecy spoken by Caiaphas in John 11:

    John 11:51-53 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
    The second parallel:
    • The 144,000 were sealed with the "Seal of the living God"
    • The Jewish Believers at Pentecost were sealed with God's Holy Spirit, and so were sealed with the "seal" of God Himself.
    The common theme of "sealing" found in Acts and Revelation on Spoke 22 is a strong confirmation of this correlation (See Tav - Sealed with the Sign of the Cross).

    The third parallel:
    • There were 144,000 = 12 x 12 x 1000 sealed in Revelation 7 (product of powers of 12 and 10)
    • There were about 120 = 12 x 10 in the upper room sealed at Pentecost (product of 12 and 10)
    The symbolic meaing of 12 as the "people of God" was established in Genesis, and carried through to the NT in the Twelve Disciples, and ultimately the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem.

    The fourth parallel:
    • The 144,000 are identified as "firstfruits" unto God and the Lamb
    • The Jewish Believers at Pentecost were literally the firstfruits from the literal seed of Abraham which coheres with the fact that Pentecost is literally called the "Feast of Firstfruits."
    The Jewish Believers at Pentecost were identified as the Church (Acts 2:47), and the Church is identified as Mount Zion: "ye are come unto mount Zion ... to the general assembly and church of the firstborn (Heb 12:22-23). Pentecost also fulfills the prophecy in Micah 4:

    Micah 4:1-8 But in the last days = Pentecost [Acts 2:17] it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come = [Acts 2:5], and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion [= the Church] from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom [of God!] shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.
    The "reign of the Lord" is called the "Kingdom of God." The Kingdom of God came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ, and then in His Body first composed of literal Jewish Believers sealed at Pentecost. And from these believers went forth the message (angelia) of "the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people" (Rev 14:6) and so from them came "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, [who] stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." (Rev 7:9).

    The Book of Revelation was written in symbols drawn from the WHOLE BIBLE to reveal how everything in the WHOLE BIBLE conspires to preach the EVERLASTING GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.

    The theme of the Book of Revelation is identical to the theme of the whole Bible, which is The Revelation of of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    That's what its all about, and so we know that's how it must be interpreted.

    Richard

    PS: I found a website that lays out the proper interpretation of Revelation with great clarity. Here is their article on the 144,000: http://www.christianhomesite.com/revelation/144000.htm
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  2. #2
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    Comment by Ray Stedman

    I was reading Ray Stedman's book called God's Final Word and found his description of the 144,000 to be identical to mine, save only for the time of the event. Stedman was a futurist so he thought that the "Pentecost" of Revelation 7 was still future. But other than that, he and I agree on the essential nature of the "seal of God" and the identity of the 144,000 as literal members of the 12 tribes of Israel:

    Ray Stedman: There is no mystery about what it means when this special group is "sealed" by God. Today, all believers are sealed by God in a special way. That is why Paul tells us, "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit."5 The presence of the Holy Spirit in us as Christians is the unmistakable mark of God's ownership upon our lives. As Paul declares in Romans, "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."6

    The same Holy Spirit who has sealed us as God's children will also seal this chosen group that is described in Revelation 7. These are thus Spirit-filled, Spirit-led people. The seal is placed upon their foreheads, which indicates that the Spirit rules over their minds, their thoughts, and their will. They are governed by the mind of Christ. ...

    I once heard a Bible teacher laboriously twist and torture this passage in an attempt to prove that the 144,000 sealed servants listed in this passage are in fact the church. But I can see no way around it. I believe that when God says "Israel" He means Israel! This text does not talk about the church; there are other passages in Revelation which talk about the church, and they do so with considerable clarity. But in this passage, God is describing the Jews.
    Actually, Stedman is quite obviously wrong about any "twisting" being required to understand the 144,000 as the "Church" since the Bible explicitly states that the Church is the "Seed of Abraham, and heirs according to promise." Indeed, Stedman must agree that the 144,000 are a part of the Church since he said they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and that's the definition of the Church. The only issue then to decide is if God used the obviously symbolic number 144,000 with the intent that we would recognize it as a symbol of the whole body of believers. I beleive this is a possible "overtone" but the primary application seems to be as a representation of the first Christian body which was entirely Jewish.

    Of course, the advantage of the preterist view that sees this event as fulfilled at Pentecost is that the Biblical statement that Jews [the NT designation of any natural descendent of Abraham regardless of tribal affiliation] from "every nation under heaven" were "gathered together" at Pentecost, 3000 of which were saved that day. It seems impossible that this could happen now or in the future because it is extremely unlikely that there are any living members of the ten lost tribes since they have had about 100 generations to dilute themselves amongst the Gentiles, which makes them 0.999999999999999999999% genetically (not to mention culturally and religiously) Gentile, and this seems equivalent to anihilation. So if the sealing of the Jews in Revelation was ever literally fulfilled, it seems like it must have been fulfilled at Pentecost in the first century.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #3
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    In a private conversation with a friend, I was asked this question concerning my view of the 144,000 as representing the Jewish Christians saved at Pentecost and soon thereafter:

    You write about a great possible interpretation of the 144,000. It is really very nice brother! But when we cross-check each feature attributed to this group, a couple of things don't seem so harmonious. If they are the first century Jewish Christians, why can only they learn the new song? Note that it doesn't open up the chance for others to learn it, so according to this interpretation, the subsequent gathered Gentiles can not learn the new song, something that amounts to a distinction between Jew and Gentile, which contradicts the New Covenant. Why can only they learn the new song? To me it sounds a little forced up to say that it is because others would join in later and learn it too.
    One reason I think this is such a good question is because the objection is based on the fundamental theological truth that there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Christ.

    I don't have an answer to this yet, but wanted to toss it out for others to think about and comment on while I am working on it.

    One other point: Some futurist commentators assert that the 144,000 will be "literal male virgins" because the Revelation 14:4 says they "were not defiled with women; for they are virgins." But this seems like an excessive and inappropriate literalism because of 2 Cor 11:2 where Paul says "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." This means that believers in general are symbolically called "virgins" unless, of course, you think that he was talking only to the unmarried and otherwise inexperienced female members of the Church. Exactly the same understanding should be applied to Rev 14:4.

    This is an example of what I would call the "Biblical" way to interpret Revelation. We dont' invent fantasies. We don't say scorpions are "really helicopters." We don't say marks are "really bio-chips." We don't say falling stars are "really nuclear bombs." We search the Scripture and say what the Scripture says.

    Richard

    PS: I find it most ironic that the so-called "literalists" like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye have invented more imaginary and non-literal interpretations than the sum total of all Amillennial Preterists who have ever lived.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #4
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    the 144,000

    Hello All...I hope you won't mind me quoting a part of an article by Dr. Stephen Jones (God's Kingdom Ministries) on this subject. I found it quite interesting. (his earlier notes, where he writes of the two groups of 144,000 with a male (military) and female(musician) theme, I will include in another post...but just wanted to address the "male virgin" question first)

    These are they which were not defiled with (meta, "among or amidst") women, for they are virgins....Rev. 14:4
    Take note that this verse does NOT tell us that these are men who have not been defiled BY women. [U]Women are not defiling God sanctified marriage at the beginning, and there is nothing wrong with having sexual relations within the bonds of marriage. Over the centuries, a number of people have taught against marriage, even telling their followers that to be an overcomer one must be a virgin. Their teaching has oven been based upon Rev. 14.4 and a misunderstanding of the Greek word, meta.
    Such teaching is simply wrong. Meta does not mean "with" in the sense of "by", as if women cause defilement. Rather "with" is in the sense of "among or amidst."
    For example, Matt. 1:23 says, "God with us, that is, among us or in our midst-or even IN us. It does not mean God BY us in any causal sense.
    In Matt. 2:3, Herod "was troubled" and all Jerusalem with(meta) him." It does not mean to say Jerusalem was troubled BY Herod, but along with him. If we remove the words added to the text in the translation, a more literal rendering of Rev. 14:3,4 is:
    3....no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000-those having been bought from the earth, those among women not defiled; for they are virgins. I obtained this data from Wilson's The Emphatic Diaglott, which is a good literal translation of the NT. So if I may paraphrase this, it says that these are the ones redeemed, or bought from the earth among women who have not been defiled, for they are virgins. In the Bible, the term "virgin" is never applied to men. It is the virgin women who are not defiled in this verse.
    The overcomers are portrayed here as virgin women. The rest of verse 4 says: These are the ones who follow the lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
    The idea of "following the Lamb" indicates a female theme as well, since in those days it was customary for the women to follow behind their husband as they walked. In this case, we are all part of the Bride of Christ, whether we are men or women in the natural. And as overcomers, we "follow the Lamb wherever He goes." Kathryn

  5. #5
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    more on the 144,000

    Taken from Revelation 14, the 144,000 by Dr. Stephen Jones

    The 144,000 Harpers
    Rev/ 14:2.3 says:
    And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
    This description is quite different from the one back in Rev. 7, which describe the overcomers in military terms. There the 144,000 are "sealed" in their foreheads. In ancient times a general would review the troops after a battle and place a mark on the forehead of each one who came through the battle unscathed. It signified that this one was divinely protected.
    But now in Rev. 14, we see a different picture of the overcomers. They are pictured as musicians playing harps and singing "a new song". Are these the same overcomers as the ones in Revelation 7? Yes, but....
    The best way to understand the New Testament is to understand the Old Testament. They confirm each other and explain each other. In most cases, the Old Testament has dark sayings that are written as types and shadows and they need a New Testament understanding. But sometimes the New Testament is unclear without knowing the types and shadows of the Old Testament.
    In this case, the book of Revelation is portraying aspects of the emerging Kingdom of God in the earth. In the OT this is pictured in the Kingdom of David, especially as we contrast it with the Kingdom of Saul. In David's kingdom we find that he had both an army and a choir, and these were types and shadows of the overcomers pictured in Rev. 7 and 14. In 1 Chronicles 27:1, we read,
    Now this is the enumeration of the sons of Israel, the heads of father's households, the commanders of thousands and of hundreds, and their officers who served the king in all the affairs of the divisions which came in and went out month by month throughout all the months of the year, each division numbering 24,000/
    The rest of the chapter explains how each tribe was responsible for one month out of the year to supply 24,000 men for military service. The troops rotated every month for 12 months. This means that David had an army of 288,000 men (24,000 x 12 = 288,000)
    Strangely enough, this is double 144,000. But this coincidence is still more striking when we read about David's choir in 1 Chron. 25:7
    And their number who were trained in singing to the Lord, with their relatives, all who were skillful, was 288.
    So David had a choir of 288 and a military of 288,000. Can this be just a coincidence? Why is the number doubled from 144, or 144,000? I believe that it indicates two groups of overcomers, each with 144,000 in them. I realize that the number may simply be purely symbolic rather than literal. But since these are the numbers given to us, we will speak as though they are literal numbers of people.
    The Meaning of the Number 288
    The number 288 is associated in the Bible with the overcomers in various ways. In Lev. 19:20, the Hebrew word charaph (betrothed) has a numeric value of 288.
    In Genisis 1:2 the Spirit of God "moved" (rachaph) upon the face of the waters. Rachaph has a numeric value of 288. This word is of interest because it has to do with the action of the Holy Spirit over creation. The same word is used in Deut. 32:11 where God is pictured as an eagle. "As an eagle stirreth up (rachaph) her nest..."
    In the New Testament we have these examples:
    1. 2 Tim. 1:9, "a holy calling"= 288
    2. Matt. 25:21, "the joy of the Lord"=288
    3. Rev. 21:9, "the Bride, the Lamb's wife" = 2880
    In addition to these, Gen. 24:22 speaks of the two bracelets that Eleazar gave to Rachel when he went to find a bride for Isaac. The Hebrew word for "bracelet" is tsamid, which has a numeric value of 144. He gave her TWo bracelets, which pictures the number 288.
    Rachel is a type and shadow of " the Bride", the Lamb's wife," even as Isaac, who was placed on the altar of sacrifice on Mount Moriah, represents Christ. Eleazar means "God helps" and speaks of the Holy Spirit, who is our Helper, the Advocate, or "Comforter" (Jn. 14:16)
    In fact Eleazar is the Hebrew form of the name Lazarus (John 11) Lazarus itself has a numeric value of 144.
    There are many interesting things that can be seen in the biblical mathematics, which help us to understand the meaning of the text itself. The number 288 is associated with the action of the Holy Spirit that prepares the Bride for her holy calling as the Lamb's wife.
    But also, the prominence of the number 288 in David's Kingdom as well as in biblical mathematics shows us that there are two groups of 144,000 for a total of 288,000. If the number is purely symbolic, then we should understand that there are two manifestations of overcomers.
    (first post I sent is inserted here and followed by:
    "It seems to me that if the number 144,000 were to be taken as a literal number, then this indicates that there will be 144,000 men and 144,000 women who are overcomers, for a total of 288,000.
    If the number is not literal, then at the very least it shows that both men and women are overcomers, and that we all have both spirtual roles to play in different ways. That is, whether we are men or women, we are all part of the Bride of Christ in that we are called to bring the Manchild to birth. Yet we are also called to rule with Christ in His throne as part of His Body. In that role, we are all male, whether we are men or women physically.
    Hence, relative to Christ (the Head) we are female. But relative to the rest of creation, we are male. In the spirit, Paul says in Gal. 3:38, we are neither male nor female, because actually we are both."

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Taken from Revelation 14, the 144,000 by Dr. Stephen Jones
    Hi Kathryn,

    Could you please post the link to this article so I can read it in context?

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Hello All...I hope you won't mind me quoting a part of an article by Dr. Stephen Jones (God's Kingdom Ministries) on this subject. I found it quite interesting. (his earlier notes, where he writes of the two groups of 144,000 with a male (military) and female(musician) theme, I will include in another post...but just wanted to address the "male virgin" question first)

    These are they which were not defiled with (meta, "among or amidst") women, for they are virgins....Rev. 14:4
    Take note that this verse does NOT tell us that these are men who have not been defiled BY women. [u]Women are not defiling God sanctified marriage at the beginning, and there is nothing wrong with having sexual relations within the bonds of marriage. Over the centuries, a number of people have taught against marriage, even telling their followers that to be an overcomer one must be a virgin. Their teaching has oven been based upon Rev. 14.4 and a misunderstanding of the Greek word, meta.
    Such teaching is simply wrong. Meta does not mean "with" in the sense of "by", as if women cause defilement. Rather "with" is in the sense of "among or amidst."
    For example, Matt. 1:23 says, "God with us, that is, among us or in our midst-or even IN us. It does not mean God BY us in any causal sense.
    In Matt. 2:3, Herod "was troubled" and all Jerusalem with(meta) him." It does not mean to say Jerusalem was troubled BY Herod, but along with him. If we remove the words added to the text in the translation, a more literal rendering of Rev. 14:3,4 is:
    3....no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000-those having been bought from the earth, those among women not defiled; for they are virgins. I obtained this data from Wilson's The Emphatic Diaglott, which is a good literal translation of the NT. So if I may paraphrase this, it says that these are the ones redeemed, or bought from the earth among women who have not been defiled, for they are virgins. In the Bible, the term "virgin" is never applied to men. It is the virgin women who are not defiled in this verse.
    Hi Kathryn,

    Very interesting insights! I must admit that I've never heard of that interpretation before. I checked the grammar, and you are correct that the word meta followed by a genitive noun as in the phrase "hoi meta gunaikon" can mean "the ones amongst amongst women" - but there is a problem with the pronoun hoi which is masculine plural. It should be feminine if women were meant.

    Also, I agree that men are not called "virgins" elsewhere in the Bible, but the church itself is called a "virgin" in 2 Cor 11:2. So I don't think the use of the term demands the 144,000 be women. Rather, it seems like its talking about believers regardless of their sex, and the virginity seems to be spiritual, not literal.

    That's just my first take. I'll do more research and comment more. I have never read anything of Dr. Steven Jones. I'll look him up as soon as I get time (I'm heading out the door right now).

    Thanks for your very interesting post.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
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    Hey Richard,

    Nice work on the 144'000 -
    I discussed this passage with Pastor Rod from Assembly of God in Mound on/around 5/5/1999 when I droped off my Testimony of my walk with Jesus/Y'shua -"The Spirit and the Bride"

    Actually his question to me was: "Did you tell them at the Synagogue that you love Jesus?" I was taken aback, but then remembered that I did send my Testimony for the first time on 11/25/1998 (for Romans 11:25) to Rabbi Goldberger. I shot back with "How do you understand Zechariah Chapter 8? Who is going to reign in Jerusalem" - Pastor Rod said verbatim : "I'll reign in Jerusalem!" Hmmm... Me: "Don't you believe the JEWS will reign in Jerusalem (meaning of course the Jews with Jesus/Y'SHUA in the heart) ? My daughter who was 9 years old at the time, became frightened and wanted to leave, so I went home and asked the LORD to show me the passage of the 144 000 - it did not take me long - 144 000 connects to Revelation 14:4 and so I sat down and wrote Pastor Rod a letter - two weeks later he announced that he will take a sabbatical for a while...

    The LORD showed me this passage supernaturally and connected the 144 000 to Revelation 14:4 - Oh yes, the Pastor said verbatim : "God is not into numbers" to which I answered : "HE is not into numbers? But the Bible is full of numbers, even has a book called Numbers!" So I wrote the letter and the Pastor resigned...

    Anyway, I have been taking these 144,000 male virgins literally
    ever since - 24 000 from Judah and Benjamin, and 120 000 from Ephraim representing the 10 "lost" tribes. And I can easily see the Priesthood in both of these numbers, the Levitical Priests and Catholic Priests since they are to be "virgins" not defiled with women. And that is the Church the LORD called me to after the door to the Synagogue was closed to me in November 1999 because I asked Rabbi Goldberger to accept Messiah Y'SHUA / JESUS...

    Today's reading in the Catholic Church is interesting : Romans 1:16 - Salvation to the JEW first then the Gentile ! Much of my walk with my LORD and SAVIOR Jesus / Y'SHUA is based on ROMANS 1:16, because it is on that date 1/16/1997 the LORD woke me up with this : "There was a man and his name was JONAH!" It is on that day (1/16/1997) that I composed the "Old Testament JONAH" Poem. Then the LORD said to me : "There is a man, his name is ... White, do the same for him!" So I started over and composed the PRESENT DAY JONAH Poem - not knowing anything about Romans 1:16, Judaism, or much else, for that matter.

    As a matter of fact, it is on 10/16/1996 that I had to give this man (White) a
    poem in person called "SON OF ISRAEL" - Repent and turn from your wicked ways, you are my Son, my Chosen One....(entire poem is on www.watchandpray.com) on that day - 10/16/1996 - exactly 11 years ago - It is also on that day that the devil attacked me and I lost $ 100 000 - That is a very expensive Poem, and I'm still waiting for the blessings... May the LORD have MERCY on me and look on my obedience to HIS WORD and bless me and my children and all who walk in HIS WAYS and are obedient to HIS CALL.

    But the LORD has a sense of humor, don't you think so, Richard? And it is ironic that I found your "144 000" thread today - 10/16/2007 - exactly 11 years after writing that poem "Son of Israel" addressed to a man born and raised Orthodox Jewish but who had accepted Jesus/Y'shua in his heart. And what's all over the news the last few days? Ann Coulter about the "Perfected Jew" - poor choice of words - but true - "Completed Jew" would be better - A Jew who has Jesus / Y'shua in the heart. In the news, on the radio, on TV etc. Hmmm...

    Wait and see, as GOD'S plan is in the process of unfolding itself...

    Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land
    Shalom among Jews, Christians and Muslims with Y'SHUA in the heart of all
    (see Isaiah 19:25 - read 19:19-25)
    White
    "According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22

    "Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure; wash me, make me whiter than snow" Psalm 51:9

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Hey Richard,

    Nice work on the 144'000 -
    I discussed this passage with Pastor Rod from Assembly of God in Mound on/around 5/5/1999 when I droped off my Testimony of my walk with Jesus/Y'shua -"The Spirit and the Bride"

    Actually his question to me was: "Did you tell them at the Synagogue that you love Jesus?" I was taken aback, but then remembered that I did send my Testimony for the first time on 11/25/1998 (for Romans 11:25) to Rabbi Goldberger. I shot back with "How do you understand Zechariah Chapter 8? Who is going to reign in Jerusalem" - Pastor Rod said verbatim : "I'll reign in Jerusalem!" Hmmm... Me: "Don't you believe the JEWS will reign in Jerusalem (meaning of course the Jews with Jesus/Y'SHUA in the heart) ? My daughter who was 9 years old at the time, became frightened and wanted to leave, so I went home and asked the LORD to show me the passage of the 144 000 - it did not take me long - 144 000 connects to Revelation 14:4 and so I sat down and wrote Pastor Rod a letter - two weeks later he announced that he will take a sabbatical for a while...
    Hi there Monique!

    Nice to be chatting. I love your insight "the JEWS will reign in Jerusalem (meaning of course the Jews with Jesus/Y'SHUA in the heart)." I think that spiritual understanding is what the Bible means when it says that "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (John 6:63) and "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Corinthians 2:13).

    You asked "How do you understand Zechariah Chapter 8?" That is such a wonderful passage, I just gotta quote part of it. Here's the beginning 8 verses:

    Zechariah 8:1-8 Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. 3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. 4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. 5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. 6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
    That passage brings together so many prophecies! First, we ask ourselves - can we think of a time that the LORD dwelt in Jerusalem after Zechariah wrote? Remember, he wrote around 500 BC after the return from the Babylonian exile. But the Lord didn't dwell in the rebuilt Temple. So when did the Lord "return to Zion?" Zechariah tells us that in 9:9:

    Zechariah 9:9-10 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the Gentiles: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
    Look at that amazing prophecy! The very prophecy that predicted Christ would come on the donkey also predicted the inclusion of the Gentiles!

    Returning to Zech 8:1-8, we see the prophecy of the Lord on His Holy Mount Zion, just like the prophecy in Rev 14. We know that Mount Zion is a symbol of the Church and the Heavenly Jerusalem because we read that in Hebrews 12:22-23:

    Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    And that links back to the 144,000 of course. This is the glory of the Biblical revelation. All the pieces fit together from beginning to end. What an amazing Word!

    Even the gathering from all over the world that was fulfilled at Pentecost is prophesied in Zech 8:7-8:

    7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
    Remember, there were Jews from "every nation under heaven" and three thousand of them were saved on the day of Pentecost.

    Thanks for asking about this glorious prophecy!

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    The LORD showed me this passage supernaturally and connected the 144 000 to Revelation 14:4 - Oh yes, the Pastor said verbatim : "God is not into numbers" to which I answered : "HE is not into numbers? But the Bible is full of numbers, even has a book called Numbers!" So I wrote the letter and the Pastor resigned...
    Ha! Is God interested in numbers? That's a funny one.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Anyway, I have been taking these 144,000 male virgins literally
    ever since - 24 000 from Judah and Benjamin, and 120 000 from Ephraim representing the 10 "lost" tribes. And I can easily see the Priesthood in both of these numbers, the Levitical Priests and Catholic Priests since they are to be "virgins" not defiled with women. And that is the Church the LORD called me to after the door to the Synagogue was closed to me in November 1999 because I asked Rabbi Goldberger to accept Messiah Y'SHUA / JESUS...
    There's lots to talk about in that paragraph. First, I really don't think the Catholic celibacy is from God. I think that is one of the "big errors" of the Catholic church. Is there anything in the Bible that suggests priests should be celibate?

    Another problem is that I don't think the Catholic priesthood is in the bible either. It seems to me that ALL BELIEVERS are "priests" unto God. We fulfill the promise God originially gave to our spiritual forefathers and foremothers - as it is written in 1 Pet 2:9-10:

    1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
    Compare this to the promise given to ISRAEL in Exodus:

    Exodus 19:5-6 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
    Of course, some folks try to say that first Peter was written only to Jewish Christians, but that is wrong for a number of reasons. First, there is no "Jew or Gentile" in Christ, so how could that promise be fulfilled only in Jewish Christians? Second, when were the Jews "not a nation"? Peter said that they "are now the people of God" - if he was talking about Israel in the flesh that wouldn't make any sense because they were the people of God right up till the coming of Christ.

    But the biggest challenge is that the "10 lost tribes" don't know who they are, so they've been interbreeding with the Gentiles for at least 50 generations. Now think of what happens when a Jew marries a Gentile. The kids are 50% Jewish. Next generation is 25%, then 12.5% then ... and after 50 generations? You get about 0.000000000000001% Jew! And where did the rest of the "Jewish genes" go? They were dispersed into the general Gentile population, so that now about 99% of Gentiles (who have not been isolated from interbreeding with other Gentiles) have at least one ancestor who is a Jew! That's how population dynamics works.

    Let me give you the bottom line - If you think that every physical descendent of Israel (Jacob) is still considered a member of "Israel" then nearly the whole planet is "Israel." I admit its kind of a nice idea, but I don't think it means much because God is not interested in fleshly lines of geneologies. Entrance into the New Covenant is through Faith, not fleshly ancestory.

    Quote Originally Posted by White View Post
    Today's reading in the Catholic Church is interesting : Romans 1:16 - Salvation to the JEW first then the Gentile ! Much of my walk with my LORD and SAVIOR Jesus / Y'SHUA is based on ROMANS 1:16, because it is on that date 1/16/1997 the LORD woke me up with this : "There was a man and his name was JONAH!" It is on that day (1/16/1997) that I composed the "Old Testament JONAH" Poem. Then the LORD said to me : "There is a man, his name is ... White, do the same for him!" So I started over and composed the PRESENT DAY JONAH Poem - not knowing anything about Romans 1:16, Judaism, or much else, for that matter.

    As a matter of fact, it is on 10/16/1996 that I had to give this man (White) a
    poem in person called "SON OF ISRAEL" - Repent and turn from your wicked ways, you are my Son, my Chosen One....(entire poem is on www.watchandpray.com) on that day - 10/16/1996 - exactly 11 years ago - It is also on that day that the devil attacked me and I lost $ 100 000 - That is a very expensive Poem, and I'm still waiting for the blessings... May the LORD have MERCY on me and look on my obedience to HIS WORD and bless me and my children and all who walk in HIS WAYS and are obedient to HIS CALL.

    But the LORD has a sense of humor, don't you think so, Richard? And it is ironic that I found your "144 000" thread today - 10/16/2007 - exactly 11 years after writing that poem "Son of Israel" addressed to a man born and raised Orthodox Jewish but who had accepted Jesus/Y'shua in his heart. And what's all over the news the last few days? Ann Coulter about the "Perfected Jew" - poor choice of words - but true - "Completed Jew" would be better - A Jew who has Jesus / Y'shua in the heart. In the news, on the radio, on TV etc. Hmmm...

    Wait and see, as GOD'S plan is in the process of unfolding itself...

    Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land
    Shalom among Jews, Christians and Muslims with Y'SHUA in the heart of all
    (see Isaiah 19:25 - read 19:19-25)
    White
    Wonderful "coincidences" Monique. I love how God quickens things in your spirit. That's a real blessing.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    195
    Hi RIchard,

    Since you love Zechariah 8, lets not stop now but look at v. 18-23 :

    18 Then the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, 19 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


    ‘ The fast of the fourth month,
    The fast of the fifth,
    The fast of the seventh,
    And the fast of the tenth,
    Shall be joy and gladness and cheerful feasts
    For the house of Judah.
    Therefore love truth and peace.’
    20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


    ‘ Peoples shall yet come,
    Inhabitants of many cities;
    21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying,

    “ Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD,
    And seek the LORD of hosts.
    I myself will go also.”
    22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
    Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
    And to pray before the LORD.’


    23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

    The fasts are still that today - fast days rather then FEAST DAYS - Just a thought the LORD had given me a long time ago, always looking for the POSITIVE in the Word of GOD. And then of course, there are many more such passages -
    How about :
    ISAIAH 2:2- 5 is another one :

    Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
    Thatthe mountain of the LORD’s house
    Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
    And shall be exalted above the hills;
    And all nations shall flow to it.
    3 Many people shall come and say,

    Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
    To the house of the God of Jacob;
    He will teach us His ways,
    And we shall walk in His paths.”

    For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
    And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
    4 He shall judge between the nations,
    And rebuke many people
    ;
    They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
    And their spears into pruning hooks;
    Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
    Neither shall they learn war anymore.

    The Day of the LORD
    5 O house of Jacob, come and let us walk
    In the light of the LORD.


    Past, Present or Future?

    Guess what, just about one hour ago I did some research on a website somebody gave me : Steven Jones called God's Kingdom Ministries -
    and here he is mentioned on the "BIBLEWHEEL" - hmmm.... Interesting
    and in tune with the Holy Spirit... May we say HE is never far away...

    Richard says : about the 144'000 - 12 000 Judah - 120 000 Israel (Church)
    There's lots to talk about in that paragraph. First, I really don't think the Catholic celibacy is from God. I think that is one of the "big errors" of the Catholic church. Is there anything in the Bible that suggests priests should be celibate? (Hey Richard: have you ever heard of Dr. Scott Hahn and his wife Kimberly? They were Pastors becoming more fundamental starting with the Eucharist - and ended up after 5 antagonizing years of soul searching and re-examining the Catholic Church and her "claim" , they became "Roman Catholics" after being EXTREMELY ANTI CATHOLIC for decades ! I just finished their Book "Rome Sweet Home" - very powerful -

    I think actually you should debate Dr. Scott Hahn on your website - that would be AWESOME! Like a Telecast - everybody sitting in their own Living Room, with hundreds of eager Bible Students with their Bible on their Lap scoring the points.... a new way to learn! Think about it - I think it could be arranged.)

    Hey Richard, does not Paul say it is better "not to marry" to do God's work? But then Paul adds, but one should marry rather than burn in "lust"... I think that is a clear suggestion to serve GOD single minded without having any "fleshly" attachment, because do be faithful to GOD in all aspects - spirit, mind, body and soul - would seem to be necessary to receive the highest degree of discernment and spirituality. After all, we are to be
    MARRIED to JESUS, who becomes our Bridegroom, thus "The Spirit and the bride" say
    "Come"...

    Richard writes:
    Another problem is that I don't think the Catholic priesthood is in the bible either. It seems to me that ALL BELIEVERS are "priests" unto God. We fulfill the promise God originially gave to our spiritual forefathers and foremothers -

    Richard, how about Matthew 16:16ff - if you do any research you will realize that Pope Benedict is the 265th successor of Peter who is handed the Keys to the Kingdom by Jesus in Matthew 16:16ff and "hell will not prevail over it"... I do see this as a direct link from the Church today to the Church Jesus founded when He trained his 11, don't you? And besides that the LORD told me - I believe it was on 10/16/1998 (yes, exactly 9 years ago) - that HE chose me "because I was Catholic"... I did not know what that meant, since I was at the time attending Synagogue and before the Synagogue I was following the Messianic Way. Here is my introduction : "I'm born and raised Catholic, but have an "Evangelical" heart, with "Jewish Roots" (meaning following the Jewish Way of Life to the best of my knowledge (just celebrated Sukkot spending time in my Sukkah) not to "earn" my way to Heaven, but because the LORD wants me to be a good witness to the Jewish People - to the JEW first, then the GENTILE... unless I learn their customs, my witness is void... but their curiosity is peaked when they discover the extent of my knowledge of Judaism and my willingness to even build my own Sukkah, my 10th this year. God blessed us with wonderful weather, good company and good food.)

    I let another Jew - Dr. David Friedman - explain why he is Torah observant - tell me what you think of his book.

    May God's face smile down from Heaven
    Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land, Salvation / Y'SHUA to the Jew FIRST, then the Gentile. Amen.
    Monique
    Last edited by White; 10-16-2007 at 05:21 PM.
    "According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22

    "Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure; wash me, make me whiter than snow" Psalm 51:9

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