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  1. #1
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    Canadian Research Team Shatters Concepts of Ancient Hebrew

    I haven't reviewed this in depth, but it looks interesting.
    Canadian Research Team Shatters Concepts of Ancient Hebrew

    For hundreds of years, major archeological discoveries have been found which continue to show that the ancient writings of the Torah are not simply myths, but accurate histories of the times and places spoken of in these texts*. And yet it is the disputed origin of these very texts themselves which scholars use to refute many of the claims made.
    The language we call ancient Hebrew, is said to have developed up from Aramaic and the other surrounding cultures into what we believe became ancient Hebrew.

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  2. #2
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    Hi Richard,
    Thanks for the link to this info. I went to thechronicleproject.org and skimmed every page on their site. It is exciting to think that the language that the Hebrew scriptures was written in could have been designed to prevent mistranslation and encroachment from outside languages. I've heard some of the 'bible code' buffs say that the bible could have 'self-correcting' codes built into the text, but none of them have said that they have found the method of deciphering the pattern used to do that.

    It definitely isn't easy to assemble the meanings of each 'glyph' or pictograph, put them together, and figure out the meanings of words. There are too many directions you can go with each concept behind the individual glyphs. That's probably where it helps to be fluent in Hebrew to start with, and have an "eastern mindset" to work from. In a lot of the three glyph words, it also seems you would have to know which glyph is acting on the others. An example would be their entry for samek-gimmel-resh.

    samek "to enclose"
    gimmel "to fold"
    resh "to spread out"

    Their summary of the glyph concepts is "to close up spread out" which seems like it could mean a lot of things. The first two glyphs are contrary in meaning to the third. It could be describing the packing of clothes for a trip and then taking them back out when you get there. So I guess you need to know that the resh concept of "spread out" is referring to the "enclosure" glyph and denotes folding shut an enclosure that had been spread out (open?) and not referring to spreading out that which was previously enclosed and folded.

    Looking at their lists of words reminded me of something that I noticed a few years ago, but have never had the time to look into. It seems like some of the letters/glyphs don't like each other very much. Certain letters don't appear next to each other in words. It would be interesting to see which letters are like this, and maybe see if there might be a reason why. I don't have the patience, the memory, or the time for that kind of work and am not computer savvy enough to make one of them do the work for me.

    I have also wondered in the past whether there are two missing letters, and whether twenty-four letters could be symbolically ties to the twenty-four "elders"? I know Jeff Benner at ancient-hebrew.org says that the letter 'ayin' in the bible text was once two separate letters in ancient Hebrew pictographs, since many of the ayin words in modern Hebrew have two meanings with one of them being considered evil or associated with darkness, which in ancient Hebrew would have been the words having the "twisted rope" pictograph with a rough "gh" sound instead of an ayin. It is interesting. By the way, a 24 letter aleph-bet would not have to endanger the wheel of the bible. Every wheel needs a hub and a rim, too!

    Getting back to the Canadians and their shaking of the apple cart (I can't tell if it has been tipped over or not yet) - I am none too happy about the idea of re-learning the meanings of a lot of Hebrew words and then going back and looking at all of the things I thought the bible said to see how the new (or maybe original) meanings change the understanding of the text. But it definitely looks like something that should be looked at. I noticed a long time ago a verse about "interpreters" or scribes (or some similar word that I can't remember right now) transgressing against the law, and I looked up the word and found it had as it's basic meaning "dividers". Since the Torah is one long string of letters, it made me wonder how many different ways the letters could be "divided" into words and not make gibberish of the letters coming before and after the divisions, or destroy the context of the surrounding text. Maybe the scribes "divided" wrong?

    One thing I didn't like about the pages at the chronicle project was the way they lettered their book headings with "decorative" letters having all kinds of holes and projections sticking out of them. It reminds me of the logo for bio-hazardous waste and other logos for unsavory concepts. The bio-hazard logo seems like it was purposely designed to produce a repulsive reaction in people. That is similar to what I felt when I saw their lettering.
    Last edited by Silence; 12-15-2010 at 11:14 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    Hi Richard,
    Thanks for the link to this info. I went to chronicleproject.org and skimmmed every page on their site. It is exciting to think that the language that the Hebrew scriptures was written in could have been designed to prevent mistranslation and encroachment from outside languages. I've heard some of the 'bible code' buffs say that the bible could have 'self-correcting' codes built into the text, but none of them have said that they have found the method of deciphering the pattern used to do that.
    Hey there Silence,

    I'm glad you looked into this. One point of correction: the site is www.thechronicleproject.org - without the "the" it points to the site of an interesting film production company.

    Your post reminded me to look at the site more, and I'm pretty disappointed in what I see. I have no idea where he got the idea to redefine the names of the letters, both in pronunciation and spelling. For example, he changes Dalet to Davatha (changing the Lamed to Vav). And the "translations" are largely meaningless and completely idiosyncratic. He appears to be forcing the entire language into a small set of meanings he imposes on the individual letters. He fails to understand how a single word can often have more than one meaning. I think his "retranslations" are so bad as not worth the bother to criticize in detail.

    As for the "self-correcting" nature of the text: I've heard Chuck Missler make that claim. It is typical of his "schtick" - he makes grandiose claims that sound super "intellectual" but then never actually gives any real evidence or example of how the text really is "self-correcting." It's a nice idea, but I've never seen any evidence for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    It definitely isn't easy to assemble the meanings of each 'glyph' or pictograph, put them together, and figure out the meanings of words. There are too many directions you can go with each concept behind the individual glyphs. That's probably where it helps to be fluent in Hebrew to start with, and have an "eastern mindset" to work from. In a lot of the three glyph words, it also seems you would have to know which glyph is acting on the others. An example would be their entry for samek-gimmel-resh.

    samek "to enclose"
    gimmel "to fold"
    resh "to spread out"

    Their summary of the glyph concepts is "to close up spread out" which seems like it could mean a lot of things. The first two glyphs are contrary in meaning to the third. It could be describing the packing of clothes for a trip and then taking them back out when you get there. So I guess you need to know that the resh concept of "spread out" is referring to the "enclosure" glyph and denotes folding shut an enclosure that had been spread out (open?) and not referring to spreading out that which was previously enclosed and folded.
    I agree ... it can be very hard to go from the letters to the meaning of the word. But the reverse is often pretty straight forward because the meaning of the word guides you in your choice of the possible meanings of the letters. Case in point: Samek most literally means "to support" not "enclose" but the latter meaning is "associated" with that letter because of Rabbinic traditions based on its shape as an enclosing circle and words that begin with samek like sukkah (booth, tent).

    The meaning of the letters he gives seem to miss the primary essence of the letter. For example, he says gimel means "enfold" when in the Bible we see the word means "abundance" and "to deal bountifully" and "to wean" and "to ripen." Likewise, Resh means "head" and "first" and "leader" not "to spread out." Indeed, the "spread out" idea is stongly associated with the letters Pey and Kaph, not Resh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    Looking at their lists of words reminded me of something that I noticed a few years ago, but have never had the time to look into. It seems like some of the letters/glyphs don't like each other very much. Certain letters don't appear next to each other in words. It would be interesting to see which letters are like this, and maybe see if there might be a reason why. I don't have the patience, the memory, or the time for that kind of work and am not computer savvy enough to make one of them do the work for me.
    In one sense, all languages have letters that "don't like each other" and others that are practically married, like Q and U. I would think this is do more to the sound rather than the meaning of the letters (since letters don't even have a meaning in most languages). But perhaps the phenomenon in Hebrew might reveal something else since it is a unique language what with the letters having real meaning and all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    I have also wondered in the past whether there are two missing letters, and whether twenty-four letters could be symbolically ties to the twenty-four "elders"? I know Jeff Benner at ancient-hebrew.org says that the letter 'ayin' in the bible text was once two separate letters in ancient Hebrew pictographs, since many of the ayin words in modern Hebrew have two meanings with one of them being considered evil or associated with darkness, which in ancient Hebrew would have been the words having the "twisted rope" pictograph with a rough "gh" sound instead of an ayin. It is interesting. By the way, a 24 letter aleph-bet would not have to endanger the wheel of the bible. Every wheel needs a hub and a rim, too!
    I think the 24 elders corresponds to the 24 letters of the Greek Alphabet, a sort of repetition of the idea of Alpha to Omega which spans 24 letters. I guess we could get 24 if we used the two forms of the 21st letter (Shin and Sin) and two forms for the 16th (Ayin and Ghayin). But what then about the other letters with two forms like Bet and Vet, or Pey and Fey? I really don't think there is much chance of finding a meaningful "24 letter" Hebrew alphabet, especially since there's no hint of 24 Hebrew letters in the Bible. Think of the 22 stanzas of Psalm 119 for example.

    Some Kabbalists like to imagine a 4-forked Shin, and other "unknowns" but I don't have much interest in things like that since they seem like they are just made up to satisfy their desire for something mystical, novel, and secret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    Getting back to the Canadians and their shaking of the apple cart (I can't tell if it has been tipped over or not yet) - I am none too happy about the idea of re-learning the meanings of a lot of Hebrew words and then going back and looking at all of the things I thought the bible said to see how the new (or maybe original) meanings change the understanding of the text. But it definitely looks like something that should be looked at. I noticed a long time ago a verse about "interpreters" or scribes (or some similar word that I can't remember right now) transgressing against the law, and I looked up the word and found it had as it's basic meaning "dividers". Since the Torah is one long string of letters, it made me wonder how many different ways the letters could be "divided" into words and not make gibberish of the letters coming before and after the divisions, or destroy the context of the surrounding text. Maybe the scribes "divided" wrong?
    Excellent point. I feel the same way ... precisely!

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
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    OOPS!

    Richard & Forum Readers,
    Sorry about the typo on the web address. Life has been crazy lately and I was in a hurry. Then after I read your reply Richard, it didn't even dawn on me until today to go back and edit my post. It has been really cold here in Florida and our house has jalousie windows that leak like a sieve so I haven't been sleeping too well. Add the extra workload from the busy Christmas season and I am about wore out. And more absent-minded. I hope things settle down after the Holidays.

    Merry Christmas to All,
    Chris

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    Richard & Forum Readers,
    Sorry about the typo on the web address. Life has been crazy lately and I was in a hurry. Then after I read your reply Richard, it didn't even dawn on me until today to go back and edit my post. It has been really cold here in Florida and our house has jalousie windows that leak like a sieve so I haven't been sleeping too well. Add the extra workload from the busy Christmas season and I am about wore out. And more absent-minded. I hope things settle down after the Holidays.

    Merry Christmas to All,
    Chris
    Hey Chris,

    Thanks for the explanation. Sorry things are hard for you right now. I trust they'll get better soon.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    Richard,
    Thank You for the words of encouragement. Looking back at the last 3 weeks or so, I realized that a good part of the trials I have been going through has been my own doing. In the long run it will be for the best. I had been reading through the New Testament in Hebrew and had gotten up to Revelation when it seemed everything I did at home or work started started to get harder. So when I read the post about a breakthrough in ancient Hebrew, I decided to check it out. Like you, I was disappointed, and also frustrated with myself for getting excited about something that promised to make reading and understanding the Hebrew of the bible easy. I also didn't like the 'vibe' I got from them. So I decided to quit wasting time and effort investigating their claims and also decided to back off for a while from reading through Revelation as it is a 'heavy' book, especially when you are having to look at each word and think about what it means. (I am still not able to read Hebrew at a pace where it "flows") So what do I do in the meantime? I decide to start re-reading my copy of Rene Girard's "Things Hidden From the Foundation of the World", which also contains some heavy material. Sifting through the ideas he puts out takes time and effort. The first time I heard about his theory of all of human culture being based on mimetic rivalry resulting in a crisis which is then resolved through the sacrifice of an arbitrary victim, something in my gut started trembling and shaking. I didn't want to hear it. It took me two years to get up the nerve to buy the book and read it. There is a lot in his writing to think through and pray about, especially his claim for a non-sacrificial reading of the new testament, but that's a whole different ball of wax and it can wait til after the new year.

    So the cold weather and work were not the whole story.

    Thanks again for the kind words and for the work you do here on the forum.

    Chris

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