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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
    Why can't you simply accept what the Bible says instead of over analyzing evrything. Where is your faith.

    I may be stupid, but I have faith in what God says in His Word. Why you can't accept the simple Word of God, I can't understand. The Word of God simply staes that we are to be obedient the the governing authorities.

    Where is your faith?

    There is no such thing as "the simple Word of God." If the Bible is anything, it is not "simple." Folks have been disputing its meaning for 2000 years, and rather than coming closer to a resolution, have only created more and more division. If you really believe the Bible is God's Word, then you need to accept that God did not intend for it to be "simply" understood. The book is filled with contradictions, confusions, and incomplete statements that no one can interpret because God omitted the information! If God had desired for us to have a simple understanding, he could have simply explained things directly and with clarity. But he did not do that. The irony is that any human textbook on Mathematics, Electronics, or Quantum Physics is a thousand times more "clear" and "simple" than the Bible. And this reveals the true purpose of the Bible. God designed it to force us to think for ourselves and to reject Biblical fundamentalism if we accept the Bible as God's Word. It is the apotheosis of irony - the Bible makes Biblical fundamentalism impossible. And this brings up another reason for the confusion around the Bible. Folks have been taught that it must be "infallible and inerrant" if it is really the "Word of God." This lie has destroyed the minds of nearly every person who has believed it. Christian apologists routinely prostitute their minds to create false explanations to cover up the truth of what the Bible really teaches. And since the TEACHERS are showing the sheep that it is OK to twist and pervert truth to support a false doctrine, the minds of the sheep are corrupted. I've been watching this go on unabated for decades. It makes a total farce of the religion known as American Evangelical Christianity.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    If the current US government is run by President Adolf Hitler, do you think we should be obedient and accept the simple Word of God? If the apostles of Jesus were to follow what you said, they would have worshipped the Roman Emperor as God...now if that is the case, where were their faith?

    Remember what Jesus said,"Matthew 24:4 Jesus answered: 'Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many".

    Many Blessings.
    All I know is what the Bible says. However, Scripture also teaches Christians to obey God rather than man. It seems likely then that we are to obey the governing authorites when the governing authorities are not contrary to God's Word.

    Why is this so hard to understand? It is very understandable if you read the topic in context. I urge you to read the whole of Romans 13. It is referring to governments appointed by God. And there is no authority except from God. The purpose of the government so appointed by God is to punish the evil-doer.

    I can't answer your question about Adolf Hitler, since it is hypothetical. Your question should be, did God appoint Hitler. I believe he did. For what purpose? That you will have to ask God.

    Why did God raise up armies to attack Israel?

    Is it not possible that God appoints tyranical governments to punish evil-doers today. Look at the the United States today. Abortion, homosexuality, greed, etc. Look at the church in America. It's divided, it's idolatrous, it's unloving. So God has given us extreme weather, and a stupid government at all levels.

    II Chronicles 7.14.

    Justice at the expense of the truth is not justice at all.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
    All I know is what the Bible says. However, Scripture also teaches Christians to obey God rather than man. It seems likely then that we are to obey the governing authorites when the governing authorities are not contrary to God's Word.

    Why is this so hard to understand? It is very understandable if you read the topic in context. I urge you to read the whole of Romans 13. It is referring to governments appointed by God. And there is no authority except from God. The purpose of the government so appointed by God is to punish the evil-doer.
    This is not an academic question for Americans because our country was founded on a rebellion against our government, and the problem was exacerbated by the fact that the British government was explicitly Christian. Many Christians believed it was a direct violation of Romans 13 to rebel against our government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
    I can't answer your question about Adolf Hitler, since it is hypothetical. Your question should be, did God appoint Hitler. I believe he did. For what purpose? That you will have to ask God.
    Hypothetical questions can be answered just like any other. Indeed, most important questions are hypothetical. They are questions like "What should I do if .... ?". Likewise, most important mathematical theorems are answers to hypothetical questions like "If x is prime, how many divisors would it have?".

    The correct answer to Cheow's question is that we should refuse to obey Hitler if he were president of the USA. I believe this clearly shows why the Biblical teaching that all governments are established by God and are a terror only to the wicked and should be obeyed is clearly false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
    Why did God raise up armies to attack Israel?

    Is it not possible that God appoints tyranical governments to punish evil-doers today. Look at the the United States today. Abortion, homosexuality, greed, etc. Look at the church in America. It's divided, it's idolatrous, it's unloving. So God has given us extreme weather, and a stupid government at all levels.

    II Chronicles 7.14.

    If God were trying to communicate through random weather events, then he would be the worst communicator in the history of the world. There is no way anyone can discern the "Voice of God" by looking at some hurricane here or tsunami there. And what kind of "intelligent being" would even think to communicate that way? If God really wanted to communicate, he could just speak so all could hear. As it is, all we have are random weather events interpreted like chicken entrails by voodoo/Christian witch doctors. The fact that many Christian leaders like Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell have explicitly taught that God was angry and speaking through natural disasters shows how utterly corrupt the Christian mind has become. They have made an absolute mockery of modern Evangelical Christianity.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #24
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    I am a simple man. As a simple man I accept Scripture by faith. And I believe the Bible is simple to understand when not subjected to the treatment of Advanced Theology. By applying whatever theological system you want, you can twist Scripture into whatever shape you want it to take. I was on that path when I "heard the calling to go into ministry." I went to Northeastern Christian Junior College. I saw this twisting their. "The Bible doesn't mean what it says, it means what we say it means." This is the attitude of many theologians.

    Sorry to say, but I have seen this twisting here as well. It seems to be going on all over Christendom.

    I just recently learned that Genesis 1 & 2 is a myth. Some preterists teach that Genesis 1 has nothing to do with the creation of the universe, but rather with the creation of covenants. Yet neither view is supported by the text itself.

    When it comes to Romans 13, I know what it says. If you want a deep theological explanation beyond what is written, you will have to ask God.

    Justice at the expense of the truth is not justice at all.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
    I am a simple man. As a simple man I accept Scripture by faith. And I believe the Bible is simple to understand when not subjected to the treatment of Advanced Theology. By applying whatever theological system you want, you can twist Scripture into whatever shape you want it to take. I was on that path when I "heard the calling to go into ministry." I went to Northeastern Christian Junior College. I saw this twisting their. "The Bible doesn't mean what it says, it means what we say it means." This is the attitude of many theologians.

    Sorry to say, but I have seen this twisting here as well. It seems to be going on all over Christendom.

    I just recently learned that Genesis 1 & 2 is a myth. Some preterists teach that Genesis 1 has nothing to do with the creation of the universe, but rather with the creation of covenants. Yet neither view is supported by the text itself.

    When it comes to Romans 13, I know what it says. If you want a deep theological explanation beyond what is written, you will have to ask God.

    Hi Didymus,

    The simple truth of the matter is....the ONLY way the Bible can be understood is through human interpretation, and given the way in which the Bible is written that pretty much leaves it wide open to however one wishes to interpret it. That's is the reason there are practically as many interpretations, which turn into doctrines as there are people.

    Think of the millions of people over the centuries that have prophesied words they said were from God that have never come to pass....everyone can't be right, yet they all speak as if they are.

    Much of the Bible is NOT written in a clear to understand manner, there are parts of stories with no beginning, introduction of ideas with no background, insertions of events that have no foundation in the Bible, and the list could go on, and on....that is the reason it is left wide open for twisting and manipulation.

    If after 2000 years Christians are no closer to the truth, I think trying to get insights from the standard method of Biblical interpretation might be a lost cause. Maybe, we need to look at the Bible from a different perspective....one of viewing it as a collection of the human experience of the divine, and how they perceived God to be from their place in the time-line of history.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 04-24-2011 at 09:47 AM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Didymus,

    The simple truth of the matter is....the ONLY way the Bible can be understood is through human interpretation, and given the way in which the Bible is written that pretty much leaves it wide open to however one wishes to interpret it. That's is the reason there are practically as many interpretations, which turn into doctrines as there are people.
    Peter disagrees with you as he has written in II Peter 1.20, "no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    Think of the millions of people over the centuries that have prophesied words they said were from God that have never come to pass....everyone can't be right, yet they all speak as if they are.

    Much of the Bible is NOT written in a clear to understand manner, there are parts of stories with no beginning, introduction of ideas with no background, insertions of events that have no foundation in the Bible, and the list could go on, and on....that is the reason it is left wide open for twisting and manipulation.

    If after 2000 years Christians are no closer to the truth, I think trying to get insights from the standard method of Biblical interpretation might be a lost cause. Maybe, we need to look at the Bible from a different perspective....one of viewing it as a collection of the human experience of the divine, and how they perceived God to be from their place in the time-line of history.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    I Corinthians 1.10 states, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

    How can we all speak the same thing if we all have our own interpretation?

    Justice at the expense of the truth is not justice at all.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
    Peter disagrees with you as he has written in II Peter 1.20, "no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation."



    I Corinthians 1.10 states, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

    How can we all speak the same thing if we all have our own interpretation?

    If Scripture isn't interpreted by individual humans then who interprets it? The only way anyone can read words written on a page and understand what is being said is to INTERPRET them.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
    When it comes to Romans 13, I know what it says. If you want a deep theological explanation beyond what is written, you will have to ask God.

    Hi Didy;
    I offered 3 links to non-governmental interpretations of Rom 13 and of the greek word Exousia which is 'power'. One factor that we need to consider is that we are reading English translation of Greek words and ideas. And there are also some evidences that the KJV was biased towards Human Govt and hierarchical church govt similar to the bishops bible, but not as severe. All translations have a certain amount of interpretation involved and this does not eliminate the KJV from inclusion... although there are some groups who proclaim that stance.

    Thus, in order to get to the accurate meaning of the words, we absolutely MUST consider the Greek words being used. In the last 10 yrs or more websites and bible software have aided this greatly, but even before; Strongs and other lexicon helps were available for the 'Simple' man to aid in his studies.

    This controversy over the Greek word Exousia is not new. In fact, Ireneous mentioned in book 5 chapter 24 I think, that there were some who held a different view of this word, but that he disregarded them in favor of the pro government view; even pagan govt. With Iraeneous other mistakes and false interpretations, this perspective cannot be depended on either.

    How much influence did Roman pressure and threats create for the early church leaders. From Trypho's first apologetic we can understand that the Roman govt system was asking and seeking systematized and codified explanations of belief, practice and interpretations. It was likely that in response to that pressure and the Romans questions about some of the writings, letters and gospels that spurious, incomplete, poorly expressed, legalized and perhaps even wrong or compromised interpretations and perspectives were promulgated by the ECF's.

    You mentioned the context of Romans 13, but the context is also Romans 12 and within the context of the topics in the whole book of Romans. No-where else that I know of does he talk about the Roman [or human] government as being god ordained though they were orchestrated by HIM and for his purpose. It is not like Paul's writing to start a new topic [or declare a ordinance] out of the blue and without context to previously discussed ideas. Neither is his typical way or intent of writing to establish or declare ordinances; but to write encouragement and support for ideas and subjects they were likely already thinking about.

    There is power, power, wonder working power.... in the blood.....of the lamb... etc.. What does the word power, mean here?

    Let every soul be subject to the HiGHER [God's good] powers [which must have had a meaning in a previous contextual reference] For there is no POWER [no eternal ordinances, statutes and principles or the free expression of them related to man] but of the goodness of God in His Creation of man in his image. And the powers [higher ordinances, principles] that be; they are ordained of God.

    This takes comprehension and study beyond do's and don'ts of codified law and researches into the very Character and Goodness of God in his creation and the ordinances, principles and foundational laws set forth in the Creation, and then also the Re-Creation and new beginnings of the New heavens, new earth of the new prophet and seed of Eve/God.

    That's why it's mentioned; Rom 13 [at least the beginning of it] has NOTHING to do the ordination of human govt.

    The new testament and new covenant is not new practices of a repeat of the conditional principles of the old covenant . The New covenant principles and laws is contrary to the conditional principles of the old covenant of keeping statutory, codified law. We are not blessed of God by the conditions of keeping mosaic law NORthe multitudes of codes/laws of human govt NOR by codifying the NT letters into New law under which we now seek to obtain blessing, justification and approval by attaining and keeping. [though there are wise principles of instruction in the NT letters to the first century church to be considered].

    Paul says; Blessed is the man who's sins are forgiven; Blessed is the man whos sins the lord does not count AGAINST him..... and in Romans 8; now if God [and his powers] be FOR us...who can be against us. We are blessed in our very individually [forgiven] humanity and divinity in the image of the Creator and the indwelling of his Spirit of adoption.

    It is not that studying and knowing Gods everlasting new ordinances and principles through his character should degrade us below human codified law; but Christians of the mold of the apostles should set the standard, including standards of freedom and of individual accountability toward God's positive Life.

    There are some atrocities and oppressions against the ordinances and statutes of the Creator of Life being committed by secular governments [sometimes due to corruption of the individual administrator] and their codified laws and systems. And a false interpretation and understanding of what Paul means in Romans 13 can fuel those atrocities.

    As you mentioned; you say you know what it says in English, but do you know what it meant in the Greek, to the original audience and from the heart and intent of the writer/composer.

    I do not think this passage teaches or even implies that human Govts are God's ordained government and presence [over the church of the Lamb] on the earth.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 04-25-2011 at 12:21 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    There is no such thing as "the simple Word of God." If the Bible is anything, it is not "simple." Folks have been disputing its meaning for 2000 years, and rather than coming closer to a resolution, have only created more and more division. If you really believe the Bible is God's Word, then you need to accept that God did not intend for it to be "simply" understood. The book is filled with contradictions, confusions, and incomplete statements that no one can interpret because God omitted the information! If God had desired for us to have a simple understanding, he could have simply explained things directly and with clarity. But he did not do that.
    For your consideration and contemplation; Jesus declared that man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man. I think there is deeper meaning to this about the New Beginning of the Eighth day that I'll not get into right now.

    But if we hold forth that believers are justified, loved, forgiven, and indwelt apart from conditional corporal law and apart from having every single accurate interpretation as "new" law to be conditionally subjected to, then, just like the Sabath being made for man, the written word is made for confirmation, instruction, building up of redeemed and 'quickened' Man, not for carnal man for the written word.

    Paul said the 'word' [incarnate God] is in you,[speaking of Believers indwelt] in your mouth and in your heart.. The written word confirms the spirit of the Living word received through faith in Christ.

    2 Cor 3.1
    Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

    2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

    3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

    4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

    5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

    6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
    ..................
    17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
    1 cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

    16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 04-25-2011 at 06:32 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    If Scripture isn't interpreted by individual humans then who interprets it? The only way anyone can read words written on a page and understand what is being said is to INTERPRET them.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    It is not for us to interpret but to accept what is written by faith.

    Justice at the expense of the truth is not justice at all.

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