When does life start? The Problem of Identical Twins.

[Bob May]

Thanks for the link - here is the pic it points to:



This shows how fun it can be to invent metaphysical representations. I used to do it a lot. But now ... I don't feel I have any reason to think that the structures based on roughly synonymous words gives reliable insight into reality.

For example, who chose "Chiah" to be the highest expression of the soul associated with Aztiluth? What gave them such authority? And why Chiah anyway, since it is the lowest form in the sense that it describes any "living" creature like an ant or a zebra?

And on I could go - metaphysical systems are a lot of fun, but they sure are filled with speculative invention!

On the other hand, there are many archetypal insights buried in them because their inventors were operating on a very symbolic level. So they do have value. They just need to be "cleaned up" a bit to remove the subjective speculative from the objective symbolic.
Richard

I take the bible as the final "Word" in these matters, but I also find many interesting crossovers in symbolism. This particular chart is from the Qabalah unveiled by Mathers.
My point is that we are more than we appear to be and the soul/Nepesh a lower part of our being.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

We can tune either to this higher part or lower part of ourselves.

That still sounds pretty dangerous. Ten hours of crowning - I would have been very worried for both mother and child. Did you have a professional midwife in attendance? My sister gave birth at home and the baby had a little trouble breathing at first so the midwife gave him a hint of oxygen (she came prepared with basic medical supplies). The whole thing was so intense - it's amazing to watch a soul enter the world, but it is so bloody and painful and visceral (literally!).
Richard

Yes we had two midwives and a doctor. And yes it was intense. I actually passed out while answering a phone call from someone. I handed the phone to someone on my way to the floor. Exhaustion and stress and lack of sleep I guess. (And I had the easy part)

Excellent insights and observations. Thanks!

I agree, it is a continuum. And I believe that abortion as birth control or mere convenience is a profound degradation of the dignity of life. But I don't think it is simply "murder" since no one mourns for a month old miscarriage in the way we would mourn the death of a child already born. Something mysterious happens somewhere between conception and birth. Of course, one reason we mourn less is just because we have much less invested in the miscarriage.

Concerning science - yes, there is much "lost" if we make the false assumption that science is supposed to span all reality! There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your science, Einstein!

On the other hand, since "science" is merely "knowledge" then it is reasonable to believe that ultimately science will encompass all that can be known. But that is a future science - not the modern study about "how physical stuff works." It is the science that we will have when what we call the "natural" encompasses what is now called the "supernatural." That is, when we achieve a unified view of all Reality. Don't hold your breath!

You know - given the reality of evolution and the fact that all living creatures have descended from a common ancestor, I find it very difficult to draw a "line in the sand" between humans and our less evolved cousins. This is something that really has me stumped right now. I recently began to study evolution after years of just ignoring this area and I find that the evidence is overwhelming. A good read is Francis Collins "The Language of God" - he is a Christian and director of the Human Genome Project. The fact that we have been able to map the entire human genome provided a HUGE volume of extremely convincing evidence of common descent. So what no? Where is the "line in the sand?" How does the idea of a soul relate to us? It's odd, but the Biblical description of Adam as a "living creature" - same as all the other animals - supports the idea that there is no fundamental distinction.
Now I've opened up a can of worms ....

Richard

It only supports the idea that there is no fundamental distinction if that is all the evidence you are looking at.
If mankind has an animal soul just as animals do, we also have a choice to operate from not only that position but also from a higher one as Paul points out in the verse quoted above.
When we were cast out of the garden we were given coats of skins (plural).
Peal one off and there is something deeper underneath.

Some people live their entire lives for no other purpose than making money, eating, drinking, mating, procreating. Just to produce another generation that does the same things.

What would be the point of that? It has always seemed odd to me.

Bob