Middle East Update

[CWH]

I am impressed that you still haven't forgotten about me, Joe.

I have said before that if the endtimes is to come, can anyone do anything to avoid it? I have also said that I don't expect the endtime to come in this decade and maybe not in our lifetime. The reason why I am concern about Middle East situation is the fast ongoing events that is occuring right before our eyes since the last decade. Iraq-Iran war, occupation of Kuwait, Occupation of Iraq, wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Arab Spring uprising, the recognition of Palestine, the civil war in Sudan, the Syrian civil war, the Turkish-Syrian tension, the Iran nuclear crisis...something obvioulsy is brewing in the Middle East. I am still trying to make sense of what is happening in the Middle East. And as history has told us that Middle East events usually will affect Israel and certain major Middle East events will affect the whole world. It is fine if you do not believe that the current Jews in Israel are not God's people but at least respect that the land in Israel is still the land that God gave to His people. The Muslim Brotherhood's control of Egypt will spell the end of the relative peace between Israel and the Arab League for the last 25 years...what will come next? Do you know what will the repercussion if Israel attacks Iran within the next few months? WW3?...one will never know for sure although I don't expect it.

God Blessed the Middle East.

[David M]

Hello Cheow

I agree what happens in the Middle East is very important. God said of the Jews (the nation of Israel); "Ye are my witnesses". It is not the people who are witnessing to God, it is the existence of Israel that witness to God. That is why when God dispersed Israel through out all the nations, God promised not to make a full end of them and that He would restore them.

God has restored Israel and Israel and Jerusalem have to be overrun once more before Jesus comes back to save God's people and that time will be such that Israel have no escape and will call upon God as their only way out. It is all very clear that God has told us before this happens, what will happen, though we do not have every detail. We have sufficient to know that God is at work fulfilling his purpose with this earth and the wonderful kingdom to come will be a reality for those who believe.

I am watching events taking place in the Middle East, I don't know exactly what will be the trigger for Russia to come down in the Middle East and that will bring the nations to get involved, but God knows and is setting the stage. I would not speculate as to how many years we have to go, but like as Jesus will come quickly like a thief, unless we are watching, the terrible events to come, will come quickly and take people unawares. Things will happen so quickly that even the nations might not know how they got involved so quickly. We do not know, what plans Russia and Iran, have and who knows that Syria might not be the event to bring Russia down and while they are there they will see Israel as a spoil to be taken as spoken of in Ezekiel 38:12. It is a prophecy as far as I know that was not fulfilled by the end the first century.

Please keep up your posts on this subject. I missed the news the last few days and did not get to hear on the radio and tv at the time what the latest skirmish between Israel and Iran is about. We know, Israel has many enemies and they will come against Israel. God will favor those countries which go to Israel's aid and help Israel. God still keeps His promise; "I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee".

All the best,

David

[TheForgiven]

Guys. How can God bring back a race of people that no longer exist? And is there any such promise that He would disperse them among the Gentiles for 2,000 plus years, and cause them to return? If you two recall, I showed you through Isaiah's Prophesy that there is to be no re-Jewish nation based on flesh. Isaiah 64 shows that once the "remnant" were selected, the rest would be destroyed, leaving only a small stump (Jesus) which would grow into a totally new tree. This was a Prophesy of the Church. And there is no other Church except what has been established by Jesus. That being the case, how then do people today still expect God to build a tree fashioned like the old tree; based on flesh (Isreal of the flesh).

There are no Jews of the flesh in existence today, and there hasn't been for a very long time; they were all killed after the turn of the first century. God fulfilled His promise to Abraham that he would become the father of many nations; i.e. the Church. This promise included Israel of the flesh, but in the first century, only a remnant would be selected to carry on the works of Jesus; these were the Apostles and their disciples; these were the "Remnant" who were selected to enter into the promised land (Jerusalem from above and not below), and who also brought in the Gentiles (in-grafted) and thus resulting in a totally new tree; the family of God's children based on faith, and not flesh.

To expect a fleshly Israel to return is not only Anti-Christian, but anti-Biblical as well. Why anti-Biblical? Because there was not promise made to the Israelite's that He would bring them back to their physical land, as though that were the land of promise. God was speaking of a spiritual kingdom, which exists in heaven and on earth; the assembly of Jesus.

Joe

[sylvius]

Guys. How can God bring back a race of people that no longer exist?

Isn't Jesus representative of that "race of people"?

Without that "race" there would have been no New Testament.

The Jews being the ones to carry the Hebrew Bible (Torah), of which Jesus is said to be the fulfillment, through history.

[David M]

Guys. How can God bring back a race of people that no longer exist? And is there any such promise that He would disperse them among the Gentiles for 2,000 plus years, and cause them to return? If you two recall, I showed you through Isaiah's Prophesy that there is to be no re-Jewish nation based on flesh. Isaiah 64 shows that once the "remnant" were selected, the rest would be destroyed, leaving only a small stump (Jesus) which would grow into a totally new tree. This was a Prophesy of the Church. And there is no other Church except what has been established by Jesus. That being the case, how then do people today still expect God to build a tree fashioned like the old tree; based on flesh (Isreal of the flesh).

There are no Jews of the flesh in existence today, and there hasn't been for a very long time; they were all killed after the turn of the first century. God fulfilled His promise to Abraham that he would become the father of many nations; i.e. the Church. This promise included Israel of the flesh, but in the first century, only a remnant would be selected to carry on the works of Jesus; these were the Apostles and their disciples; these were the "Remnant" who were selected to enter into the promised land (Jerusalem from above and not below), and who also brought in the Gentiles (in-grafted) and thus resulting in a totally new tree; the family of God's children based on faith, and not flesh.

To expect a fleshly Israel to return is not only Anti-Christian, but anti-Biblical as well. Why anti-Biblical? Because there was not promise made to the Israelite's that He would bring them back to their physical land, as though that were the land of promise. God was speaking of a spiritual kingdom, which exists in heaven and on earth; the assembly of Jesus.

Joe

Hello Joe

While I re-examine your claim more closely, here are some things for you to contemplate.

Why and how have the Jews retained their identity? A Jew is a Jew and is quite distinctive in whichever country they live. Why has not the Jewish identity died out as with all other races mentioned in the Bible? With such a world-wide dispersion of the Jews, it would be expected that their identity would be lost.

It can most likely be put down to "Tradition". The call to the Jews by God was to keep themselves separate. They have for the main part kept their identity by marriage within their race. Despite the numerous attempts in the countries to which the Jews were scattered, they have survived persecution and attempts to annihilate them. How do you think they were able to survive?

What about this promise/prophecy?
Jeremiah 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

When do you see the prophecy of Ezekiel 37 taking place - the valley of dry bones?
The closing verse of this prophecy says; (Eze 37:28) And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

It is not surprising the world is blind to what has happened to Israel, as Israel is blind to the promises God has made to them, but in God's plan, Israel is to be restored. The rejection of Israel and their blindness has been to the benefit of the Gentiles. Gentile believers are now grafted into "Spiritual Israel" and as such it is all Spiritual Israel that will be saved. The unbelieving people that make up natural Israel today are not the people who are saved to be in the kingdom to come, but once the people of natural Israel do recognize Jesus in the future and believe, then they will be saved.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

God is true to his promises and whether we are Gentiles or belong to natural Israel, salvation is an individual thing and that is why in the eyes of God and in Christ,as it is stated in Galatians 3:28; There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

All the best,

David

[TheForgiven]

Isn't Jesus representative of that "race of people"?

Without that "race" there would have been no New Testament.

The Jews being the ones to carry the Hebrew Bible (Torah), of which Jesus is said to be the fulfillment, through history.

Jesus is the only Jew who fulfilled the Law, and thus anyone (no matter what race or blood type you have) must come to God through Him. This is not determine, nor predetermined based on your national heritage. That is why I say it's incorrect to teach and believe that God is placing Jews on a longer 2,000 year old until he rejoins them. Doing so would violate His purpose of the Church; to build a single nation of all races. Teaching that God's ultimate purpose is to separate the races (Jews and Gentiles) is incorrect; not that you are advocating this, but in a way you are.

When Protestant Churches teach that God's plan of salvation was to set aside the Jews to bring in Gentiles, only to bring Jews back thousands of years later, totally voids His purpose. God cares nothing about races. If He did, then why only focus on a small branch of humanity (Israeli's)? Why not Greeks, Russians, American's, etc? Why not command that we keep to our own Tribes as them? Or is it only Israeli's (Biblically defined) who have a special purpose or reason for remaining within their Tribal Ancestry? The New Testament teaches that in Christ, there is no Jew (flesh), or Greek, slave nor free, rich nor poor, great or small; in Christ, all are one and are Jews by Spirit adoption, and not by fleshly descent.

I challenge any Israeli today to prove to me what Tribe they are from and I will believe that they are true Israeli's or Jews. Per the old testament Law, any Israeli among the 12 Tribes of Israel who married outside of their tribe were to be set aside as contaminated; they violated the blood line and are become as Gentiles. Did this requirement get set aside? In truth it did, at the cross. God used the Hebrew slaves to tell a story to the world that through slavery (sin), only the one who fulfilled the Law could set us free; notice I said, "the one", and not "the many". Thus through the slaves (many) came the birth of the one (Jesus) who would set ALL/EVERYONE free from sin; that is His purpose.

God's purpose is not to bring back power and glory to a master race called Jews (by flesh). His purpose was to bring all of humanity to Himself through the "one", and not the "many".

Jews (of the flesh) have not existed for nearly 2,000 years. The ones you see there today are a mixture of different races; i.e. German, Europe, Italian, Arabic, etc. The tribal bloodlines were severed many centuries ago, leaving no purity within the Tribes; hence, no true Israeli's. Since Christ, the ONLY way to become a Jew is by accepting Jesus as Lord, and being adopted as sons of faith and of God through Jesus.

Finally, as for the "Torah", I do not accept the Old Testament as it has been passed down to the Church beginning with St. Jerome. The Old Testament has been tampered with and corrupted by Hellenistic Jews who altered certain verses to remove any Prophesy foretelling the coming of Jesus and His passion on the cross. I believe the Greek Septuagint is the only remaining source of the Old Testament which matches what the early church used, as well as ancient Jews prior to Christ (about 4 B.C.). The Masoretic Text is not reliable.

Joseph

[TheForgiven]

Hello Joe

While I re-examine your claim more closely, here are some things for you to contemplate.

Why and how have the Jews retained their identity? A Jew is a Jew and is quite distinctive in whichever country they live. Why has not the Jewish identity died out as with all other races mentioned in the Bible? With such a world-wide dispersion of the Jews, it would be expected that their identity would be lost.

How are they distinctive? Their blood lines were contaminated as they've mingled within foreign nations these many many centuries. More than 1.2 million Jews were killed in the first century, and many more after that. When Jerusalem was completely destroyed and vacated in 70AD, and again in 132 AD, there was many Jews left to survive. Over time, as the mingled with Gentiles, their interracial marriages contaminated their tribal blood lines, making them like Gentiles. This was commanded according to Moses; those who married outside of their Tribes were to be cast away as Gentiles. Knowing that the Old Law no longer applies, logically fleshly identification as Jew is also no longer qualified; only through faith in Jesus can one become a Jews.

It can most likely be put down to "Tradition". The call to the Jews by God was to keep themselves separate. They have for the main part kept their identity by marriage within their race. Despite the numerous attempts in the countries to which the Jews were scattered, they have survived persecution and attempts to annihilate them. How do you think they were able to survive?

Can you prove this beyond any shadow of doubt? There are no Tribes left, and there hasn't been for almost 2,000 years. Hellenistic Jews are not Jews. Israeli's must, according to the Law, prove their Tribal ancestry through papers or staffs (carvings). If they cannot prove what Tribe they are from, then they more than likely are not Israeli. Now in today's standards, your race is determined by geographical boundaries. But not so in Biblical requirements. God in ancient times scattered Jews to the nations around them, but they still kept to themselves. But after the turn of the 1st century, this was no longer practice; they had all abandoned hope. Sure there were Hellenistic Jews, but those are not even Jews; they are nothing more than Arabic terrorists seeking to destroy Christianity by preaching false doctrines, and so forth. They've been a problem since the turn of the 2nd century, but they are no means to be considered "legally and Biblically" Jewish.

What about this promise/prophecy?
Jeremiah 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

This was fulfilled when He allowed them to return, and rebuild Jerusalem and its temple. The nations around that God drove them to (Medes/Persians, Babylon, and Greece) were all destroyed as He promised, by the rise of the Roman Empire. This return of course was not without condition. Jeremiah was a Prophesy about the destruction of Jerusalem (and their scattering) by the Babylonian Empire; this was fulfilled with King Neb.

When do you see the prophecy of Ezekiel 37 taking place - the valley of dry bones?
The closing verse of this prophecy says; (Eze 37:28) And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

This was fulfilled at the cross. The "dry bones" is not literal; it is a figure of speech denoting dead-men-walking, specifically Israel. It was also a Prophesy about the temple/sanctuary (Temple of God through Christ) being build forever; this is the Church (body of believers), and the Church is the temple.

It is not surprising the world is blind to what has happened to Israel, as Israel is blind to the promises God has made to them, but in God's plan, Israel is to be restored. The rejection of Israel and their blindness has been to the benefit of the Gentiles. Gentile believers are now grafted into "Spiritual Israel" and as such it is all Spiritual Israel that will be saved. The unbelieving people that make up natural Israel today are not the people who are saved to be in the kingdom to come, but once the people of natural Israel do recognize Jesus in the future and believe, then they will be saved.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This WAS the case in the first century, but the blindness ended in the first century. As I mentioned earlier, Issiah's Prophesy tells us exactly how long this blindness would last. The blindness would only last until every city and house throughout Israel were left destroyed. Isaiah asked, "How long (blindness) O' Lord", and God replies, "until cities have been laid wasted, and what remains is a stump; the Holy Seed is the stump". When did this happen? When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. This is when the blindness and spirit of stupor was fulfilled/completed. [Isaiah 6:1-13] The spirit of stupor and blindness would end when their city was destroyed (70AD). It has not taken place since that time.

God is true to his promises and whether we are Gentiles or belong to natural Israel, salvation is an individual thing and that is why in the eyes of God and in Christ,as it is stated in Galatians 3:28; There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

All the best,

David

Again, if you read Isaiah, He kept His promise. Israel, according to Paul, would only be saved by one way; ingrafting. Beginning with an ax that cut down the first tree (ax is laid at the root), a new tree would be fashioned; a tree that would include all the races into one new race. This began in the first century, and was fulfilled by 70AD. Since that time, the tree of God continues to grow. As for a promise of regrafting Jews of the flesh, only a remnant would be saved (again 70AD), and that was the Apostles and their disciples.

In conclusion, per Isaiah's Prophesy, there is no blindess happening today, and there are no Jews today EXCEPT those who have been born of the Spirit, and not the flesh. Jewish flesh hasn't existed for two millenniums, and will never be found again. As John wrote in Revelation, "The voice of the Bride (former Jewish assembly) and the Bridegroom (Jesus) will never be heard in you again" and again "The light of the lamp will never shine in you again". Jeremiah foretold this to the Jews before their destruction by the king of Babylon. And John echoes this Prophesy in the book of Revelation, to the Harlot nation (Apostate Israel) who would suffer the same fate, but in a far worse circumstance. That is why Jesus condemned them in Matthew 23, and stated that their judgment would be far worse than their forefathers, for killing not only Jesus, but His children as well. Yet out of the Jews, only a small remnant would be delivered from this destruction (70AD), and be directly responsible for the establishing of God's new and true sanctuary; the hearts and minds of believers.

Joseph

[David M]

Hello Joe
It is good that we are in agreement with baptism and on that basis, I hope we can build on that foundation as to the truth that God has revealed to us about other things and which we see differently because of the veil that is over all our eyes obscuring the truth until the veil is completely removed. At the moment we all see the blurred picture differently with some parts becoming clear to others while some parts remain unclear to others and hopefully, by having a reasoned discussion we can help lift the veil from each others eyes.

I will answer your direct questions and make comment to your reply where appropriate.

How are they distinctive? Their blood lines were contaminated as they've mingled within foreign nations these many many centuries. More than 1.2 million Jews were killed in the first century, and many more after that. When Jerusalem was completely destroyed and vacated in 70AD, and again in 132 AD, there was many Jews left to survive. Over time, as the mingled with Gentiles, their interracial marriages contaminated their tribal blood lines, making them like Gentiles. This was commanded according to Moses; those who married outside of their Tribes were to be cast away as Gentiles. Knowing that the Old Law no longer applies, logically fleshly identification as Jew is also no longer qualified; only through faith in Jesus can one become a Jews.

The Jews have a distinctive facial characteristic for one. One might easily suspect a person to be a Jew by their face. When someone says they are a Jew, we are likely to say, "I thought as much". It is not a scientific answer, but it is observable. Tradition and in-breeding has retained physical characteristics that are but one a fraction of the inherited characteristics passed on by the DNA. I know less about the blood, but the Jews have not mingled as much as you suspect. I agree that Jews have married outside their own culture and people, that goes for all races, but you have to take into account that a large majority of the the Jews have retained their culture and through in-breeding have retained a national characteristic that identifies them as a Jew.
We are in agreement that through belief we become a spiritual Jew, hence as I have said, we belong to Spiritual Israel. We have now Spiritual Israel, and we have the physical Israel that are only a physical sign witnessing for God and who play a central part amongst all the nations which God is dealing with.

Can you prove this beyond any shadow of doubt? There are no Tribes left, and there hasn't been for almost 2,000 years. Hellenistic Jews are not Jews. Israeli's must, according to the Law, prove their Tribal ancestry through papers or staffs (carvings). If they cannot prove what Tribe they are from, then they more than likely are not Israeli. Now in today's standards, your race is determined by geographical boundaries. But not so in Biblical requirements. God in ancient times scattered Jews to the nations around them, but they still kept to themselves. But after the turn of the 1st century, this was no longer practice; they had all abandoned hope. Sure there were Hellenistic Jews, but those are not even Jews; they are nothing more than Arabic terrorists seeking to destroy Christianity by preaching false doctrines, and so forth. They've been a problem since the turn of the 2nd century, but they are no means to be considered "legally and Biblically" Jewish.

Certainly, the Jews do not claim to be of any particular tribe. While there is mention of the 12 Apostles sitting on the 12 twelve thrones, I will have to wait and see how this pans out in practice. I know that God said he would restore Israel and that he would reunite the people and take away the split that had developed between the 10 tribes making up the northern kingdom of Israel and the two tribes making up the southern kingdom that was Judah. Consider Isaiah 11:12 for example; And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Also Jeremiah 30:3; For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
This will have its fulfillment in the return of the Jews from the Babylonian exile and that is why I quoted Ezekiel 37 as another fulfillment of the prophecy following the dispersion of the Jews in AD70. When the Jews went into exile in Babylon, they had not been scattered to the four corners of the earth and dispersed amongst all the nations as was the case after AD70.
As for "abandoning all hope", I would not disagree with you. This does not affect the fact that some Jews (if not all) have retained their Tradition and some who are orthodox Jews still abide by the old law. It is the Jewish identity that has been retained. It does not matter if the Jews (modern Jews) today do not recognize God, and have lost sight of the hope that they once had, it does not mean that God has given up on His promise. The Jews will have the spiritual veil lifted from there eyes when in the future they have to call on God to save them and that is when God will send them their Messiah. This might be 2,000 years late for some Jews, but events will come when the modern state of Israel needs to be saved from imminent annihilation.

This was fulfilled when He allowed them to return, and rebuild Jerusalem and its temple. The nations around that God drove them to (Medes/Persians, Babylon, and Greece) were all destroyed as He promised, by the rise of the Roman Empire. This return of course was not without condition. Jeremiah was a Prophesy about the destruction of Jerusalem (and their scattering) by the Babylonian Empire; this was fulfilled with King Neb.

I agree with you Joe that the Jews did return from the Babylonian exile to rebuild the temple. That was after their first exile. Consider Ezekiel 21:27; I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
You can disagree, but why stress the word "overturn" three times? I suggest that this is referring to three over-turnings of Jerusalem. The first was the Babylonian exile, the second was AD70 and the third is still to come (which according to the signs could be very soon, meaning within a few years). This is why Jesus will come back to save God's people and at that time, Jerusalem will be given to Jesus the Christ who has earned the right according to the words of that prophecy. Jerusalem is where Jesus will be king and will have the throne of king David set up once more. There are many verses describing the time when the law will go froth from Zion once more.

This was fulfilled at the cross. The "dry bones" is not literal; it is a figure of speech denoting dead-men-walking, specifically Israel. It was also a Prophesy about the temple/sanctuary (Temple of God through Christ) being build forever; this is the Church (body of believers), and the Church is the temple.

I agree Joe, it was not a literal coming together of dry bones. It was a prophetic vision representing the establishment of the nation of Israel. Modern-day Israel has not come about by dry bones literally coming together. I don't agree that this was fulfilled on the cross, though without "the cross", it would have written off all future prophecy. I think we shall have to see whether we can reason this out. For now, the nation of Israel has been established (that is a fact), but the spirit of God has not been put into that nation. That will come when the spiritual veil is lifted and they recognize Jesus. Again you are correct in that through the Temple of God that is in Christ. the spiritual temple is being built to last for ever. This is going on at the same time as the physical nation of Israel is serving as a witness and a sign to believers that God is at work in the physical world as much as He is at work in the spiritual lives of people. Eventually, the spiritual life that is going on in Christ, will be united with the physical world which will culminate in the establishment of God's kingdom on earth that will come as the result of Christ's rule on earth. There will come a time when Christ hands over the kingdom to his Heavenly Father and God becomes all in all. That is the time we can all look forward to and when everyone lives for ever and is at a peace.

This WAS the case in the first century, but the blindness ended in the first century. As I mentioned earlier, Issiah's Prophesy tells us exactly how long this blindness would last. The blindness would only last until every city and house throughout Israel were left destroyed. Isaiah asked, "How long (blindness) O' Lord", and God replies, "until cities have been laid wasted, and what remains is a stump; the Holy Seed is the stump". When did this happen? When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. This is when the blindness and spirit of stupor was fulfilled/completed. [Isaiah 6:1-13] The spirit of stupor and blindness would end when their city was destroyed (70AD). It has not taken place since that time.

I can see your reasoning, and if you fail to see the three over-turnings of Jerusalem, then you have nothing beyond AD70 to pin the prophecies to. It is going to be hard for you to change your accepted beliefs that you have held on to from what you have been taught and have accepted. Alas, I have to accept that which I have come to understand, seeing that is is a better fit and fulfillment of God's word. Continued exchanges can help us see more things clearly. Israel is still blind today because of the veil that is over their eyes. It is a spiritual veil and they are spiritually blind to Jesus and they will be that way until they recognize Christ when he returns. We can thank God that we are not as blind as Israel was towards Jesus, nevertheless, we can be blind in the way we see God using the nation of Israel to witness to God's control of the nations. Political leaders do not realize the positions they hold are as a result of God. God is using the blind to lead the blind; hence the saying of Jesus; "Let the dead bury the dead". God has let the people He wants in the right place at the right time to demonstrate to the less blind believers that God is in control and He has not forsaken His people and abandoned us. God's plan will be fulfilled whether we see that plan clearly or not.

Again, if you read Isaiah, He kept His promise. Israel, according to Paul, would only be saved by one way; ingrafting. Beginning with an ax that cut down the first tree (ax is laid at the root), a new tree would be fashioned; a tree that would include all the races into one new race. This began in the first century, and was fulfilled by 70AD. Since that time, the tree of God continues to grow. As for a promise of regrafting Jews of the flesh, only a remnant would be saved (again 70AD), and that was the Apostles and their disciples.

Once again Joe, I can agree with much of what you say, though I believe in the spiritual message and Spiritual Israel. The grafting is taking place every time a Gentile comes to believe God in the way God requires and that person is grafted into Spiritual Israel. Thanks be to God, that after AD70, you and I have been grafted in.

In conclusion, per Isaiah's Prophesy, there is no blindess happening today, and there are no Jews today EXCEPT those who have been born of the Spirit, and not the flesh. Jewish flesh hasn't existed for two millenniums, and will never be found again. As John wrote in Revelation, "The voice of the Bride (former Jewish assembly) and the Bridegroom (Jesus) will never be heard in you again" and again "The light of the lamp will never shine in you again". Jeremiah foretold this to the Jews before their destruction by the king of Babylon. And John echoes this Prophesy in the book of Revelation, to the Harlot nation (Apostate Israel) who would suffer the same fate, but in a far worse circumstance. That is why Jesus condemned them in Matthew 23, and stated that their judgment would be far worse than their forefathers, for killing not only Jesus, but His children as well. Yet out of the Jews, only a small remnant would be delivered from this destruction (70AD), and be directly responsible for the establishing of God's new and true sanctuary; the hearts and minds of believers.

For the moment Joe, I cannot agree with all your conclusions. I have explained above that the Jews are still blind today of Jesus and of God's involvement with restoring the nation of Israel. The Jews do not recognize that the state of Israel has come about by God and they can attribute that to their own efforts. It is their blindness that will taken away when the veil is lifted and they recognize Christ as their Messiah when he returns to save them. Because you do not see the third fulfillment of the over-turning of Jerusalem, you are not seeing things as I do and are not understanding parts of the Bible as I do.

Is it is good to reason these things out.

All the best,

David

[TheForgiven]

Hello Dave-M. You've mentioned a lot and I cannot respond to every point as you have done; doing so would cause this post to be hours long, and we certainly don't want that. So I'll address a few points or attempts you've mentioned.

1. Triple fall of Jerusalem - This is not mentioned in scripture. You may very well feel obliged to infer this belief based on the word, "fall" being denoted three times (just an example), but that cannot be taken with any real solidity. There's no mentioning of Jerusalem being destroyed three times; only twice; once predicted by Jeremiah, and again predicted by both Daniel and Christ (Christ referred to Daniels Prophesy). In speaking of Daniel, I know for certain that the kingdoms which conquered Israel were four in number, and the 5th kingdom would be "stone" which destroys all prior kingdoms. If we are to assume as you do my friend, that Jerusalem is to suffer another fate, then Daniel's Prophesy becomes contradictory; there would have to be five Gentile kingdoms to conquer Israel, with the future coming of Christ as the "stone" destroying them. But we know that Daniel only literally mentions four kingdoms; although Futurists will try to divide the Roman Empire into two kingdoms spanning thousands of years. This of course is not good interpretative practice.

2. Time of Hardening - Speculation is the fundamental problem with interpreting Prophesy. We can speculate how long the time of hardening is to last, but this is not good interpretative practices. Isaiah 6 specifically states how long the time of hardening would last, and settles the interpretation; clear cut and dry. Isaiah asked how long the hardening would last, and God tells him that it would only last until the cities throughout Israel were laid wasted, and without inhabitant (we know this happened in 70AD), and the only thing that remained was a stump (note: A stump remains when a tree has been cut down; Israel was that tree; Israel of the flesh, that is). The "Holy Seed" is the stump which began at the cross of Christ, through the preaching of the Apostles, and finally the acceptance and belief of the entire "then" inhabited earth. Jesus told the Apostles (which confirms this position) that they (the Apostles) will not have gone through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes; we know this MUST be a first century fulfillment. In Matthew 24, we're told that the Apostles would preach the Gospels to all the "then" nations, and then the "end" of Jerusalem would come; this happened right on time, and exactly as predicted by the Prophets. Now coupling all of these points together, along with Isaiah 6, solidifies my position (as denoted by scripture) that the time of hardening ended in 70AD. Since that time, anyone who is not a Christian IS NOT a Jews; this included even biological Jews of the day. Finally, Revelation is an opening, and also a climatic ending. The opening talks about the release of destruction upon a Harlot; a woman riding a 7 headed Beast; this was clearly Apostate Israel of the flesh. The climax of this story is the eternal establishment of a New Israel/Jerusalem. So the story (Revelation) is all about the destruction of a Harlot (Apostate Israel) by death (voiding the marriage contract), and Christ's marriage with a new beautiful and faithful woman (Israel of God / Christian Church); thus, Revelation is about removing one woman in exchange for a much better woman. And the new woman is comprised of children of God from all nations; not just secular Israel. This being the case, it makes no logical sense to assume that God must restore secular Israel, divide them by tribe, and invite them into a Church.

Critical thinking: Why would God waste so much time keeping promises to a specific race when the promise itself is not about race? Their (any Jew) focus should not be defined by their racial existence, but their Christian birth. The purpose of ancient Israel was to paint a picture of the coming Church (now here for 2,000 years). Since the arrival of the Church of God, there's no more need for a secular-defined Israel. There's ancient Israel, and there's the Israel of God; you can't have both.

Joseph

[David M]

Hello Joseph

Hello Dave-M. You've mentioned a lot and I cannot respond to every point as you have done; doing so would cause this post to be hours long, and we certainly don't want that. So I'll address a few points or attempts you've mentioned.

I do not expect you to respond to every point made. Posts do get long and we should concentrate on the questions rather than respond to every statement made. I will be selective where I can and highlight the parts in red I want to respond to.

1. Triple fall of Jerusalem - This is not mentioned in scripture. You may very well feel obliged to infer this belief based on the word, "fall" being denoted three times (just an example), but that cannot be taken with any real solidity. There's no mentioning of Jerusalem being destroyed three times; only twice; once predicted by Jeremiah, and again predicted by both Daniel and Christ (Christ referred to Daniels Prophesy). In speaking of Daniel, I know for certain that the kingdoms which conquered Israel were four in number, and the 5th kingdom would be "stone" which destroys all prior kingdoms. If we are to assume as you do my friend, that Jerusalem is to suffer another fate, then Daniel's Prophesy becomes contradictory; there would have to be five Gentile kingdoms to conquer Israel, with the future coming of Christ as the "stone" destroying them. But we know that Daniel only literally mentions four kingdoms; although Futurists will try to divide the Roman Empire into two kingdoms spanning thousands of years. This of course is not good interpretative practice.

I quoted Ezekiel 21:27 27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: It in the context of the chapter refers to Jerusalem. Stating "overturn" three times is like spelling it out in Morse code for emphasis. Of course you can say this one verse alone is not solid evidence, but how else do you understand this verse? The third destruction is still future and that is why it fits in with the return of Jesus; as you say; Jesus's kingdom when it comes, will the "stone". We can agree on this, and this is why I believe God has given us an indication by "the signs of the times" when to expect this. I understand you are holding on to your present understanding, but facts speak and the fact is that Bible students predicted the establishment of Israel in accordance with God's word and that was realized in 1948, although the return began many years before.

2. Time of Hardening - Speculation is the fundamental problem with interpreting Prophesy. We can speculate how long the time of hardening is to last, but this is not good interpretative practices. Isaiah 6 specifically states how long the time of hardening would last, and settles the interpretation; clear cut and dry. Isaiah asked how long the hardening would last, and God tells him that it would only last until the cities throughout Israel were laid wasted, and without inhabitant (we know this happened in 70AD), and the only thing that remained was a stump (note: A stump remains when a tree has been cut down; Israel was that tree; Israel of the flesh, that is). The "Holy Seed" is the stump which began at the cross of Christ, through the preaching of the Apostles, and finally the acceptance and belief of the entire "then" inhabited earth. Jesus told the Apostles (which confirms this position) that they (the Apostles) will not have gone through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes; we know this MUST be a first century fulfillment. In Matthew 24, we're told that the Apostles would preach the Gospels to all the "then" nations, and then the "end" of Jerusalem would come; this happened right on time, and exactly as predicted by the Prophets. Now coupling all of these points together, along with Isaiah 6, solidifies my position (as denoted by scripture) that the time of hardening ended in 70AD. Since that time, anyone who is not a Christian IS NOT a Jews; this included even biological Jews of the day. Finally, Revelation is an opening, and also a climatic ending. The opening talks about the release of destruction upon a Harlot; a woman riding a 7 headed Beast; this was clearly Apostate Israel of the flesh. The climax of this story is the eternal establishment of a New Israel/Jerusalem. So the story (Revelation) is all about the destruction of a Harlot (Apostate Israel) by death (voiding the marriage contract), and Christ's marriage with a new beautiful and faithful woman (Israel of God / Christian Church); thus, Revelation is about removing one woman in exchange for a much better woman. And the new woman is comprised of children of God from all nations; not just secular Israel. This being the case, it makes no logical sense to assume that God must restore secular Israel, divide them by tribe, and invite them into a Church.

I agree speculation is a problem. However, hindsight helps clear things up. Even if you cannot see the related prophecies, the miracle of the Jews survival and the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 must raise the question; "why?"
Isaiah 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, That was the case after AD70 and the healing process has yet to be fulfilled and that will begin when Jesus returns as the Messiah to save Israel and then the Jews will recognize Jesus as the one they killed 2,000 years ago.
It makes sense when you consider that Jesus returns and sits on the throne of David ruling from Jerusalem. Secular Israel is only a witness to God working amongst the nations. When Christ rules for 1,000 years with his saints (the resurrected ones) those who are born whether of Israel or another nation will be judged at the end of the 1,000 years. This is before Christ hands back the kingdom. At this present time, we are living in Gentile times and Jews like Gentiles have the opportunity of believing in Jesus and receiving eternal life. That is why in Christ we are all one, and those living in secular Israel now have the same opportunity as we have who are Gentiles. Alas, so many are spiritually blind to God's opportunity, they do not understand (or want to understand) these things.

Critical thinking: Why would God waste so much time keeping promises to a specific race when the promise itself is not about race? Their (any Jew) focus should not be defined by their racial existence, but their Christian birth. The purpose of ancient Israel was to paint a picture of the coming Church (now here for 2,000 years). Since the arrival of the Church of God, there's no more need for a secular-defined Israel. There's ancient Israel, and there's the Israel of God; you can't have both.

We must not forget the promise of God to Abraham. The fact that God has not forgotten His promise to Abraham shows God's faithfulness. If the land is not defined, as it is with the nation of Israel established in the land, what land will Abraham inherit when he is raised from the dead and is in Christ's kingdom that will be established when he returns? God's promise to Abraham has not been fulfilled, so it is wrong to think that God should not keep His promises or have made the promise in the first place. The ultimate goal of God is to get the earth back to the paradise state is was like the Garden of Eden inhabited by those who have been given eternal life, when there will be no more death amongst the population. It is a hard thing to imagine, but this is what God is promising to each and everyone of us, if only we will believe in Him and Jesus.

Its good we can share our thoughts and our understanding.

All the best,

David