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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by basilfo View Post
    =
    That's a great point, and I have asked those who say Rom 11:26 ("and so all Israel shall be saved") speaks of a "national conversion" of Israel in the future some other questions:

    Do you have to live in Israel itself, or does this massive Jewish conversion cover Bernie from Brooklyn and Menachem from Moscow?

    What % "Jewish" do you have to be to qualify for the blanket, national conversion of "all Israel"? 100%? 50%? Just one drop gets you into the club?
    Excellent question Dave!

    If an Israelite is defined as any carnal descendant of Isaac, then almost everyone is an Israelite. This is because the ten northern tribes have been dispersed and interbreeding with the Gentiles for over 100 generations so we must conclude through population dynamics that about 95% of the population of the planet can trace their ancestry to Isaac. This means the current ratio of "Israelites" to "Gentiles" is about 19 to 1! Almost all the Gentiles have been converted to Israelites through interbreeding!



    It would be very interesting to see how they fit that into their end time theories. I hope one of them tries.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Excellent question Dave!

    If an Israelite is defined as any carnal descendant of Isaac, then almost everyone is an Israelite. This is because the ten northern tribes have been dispersed and interbreeding with the Gentiles for over 100 generations so we must conclude through population dynamics that about 95% of the population of the planet can trace their ancestry to Isaac. This means the current ratio of "Israelites" to "Gentiles" is about 19 to 1! Almost all the Gentiles have been converted to Israelites through interbreeding!



    It would be very interesting to see how they fit that into their end time theories. I hope one of them tries.

    Richard
    Obviously we are all 100% descended from Noah. There is no proof that 95% of us were descended from Isaac. Have any DNA tests been done to confirm that 95% of us are from Isaac or is it just another ASSumption? Obviously, the Chinese, Japanese and other Mongoloid races were not descended from Isaac.... 99% of Mongoloids have rhesus +ve blood whereas 60% of Europeans have rhesus -ve blood:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh_blood_group_system

    Many Blessings.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Obviously we are all 100% descended from Noah. There is no proof that 95% of us were descended from Isaac. Have any DNA tests been done to confirm that 95% of us are from Isaac or is it just another ASSumption? Obviously, the Chinese, Japanese and other Mongoloid races were not descended from Isaac.... 99% of Mongoloids have rhesus +ve blood whereas 60% of Europeans have rhesus -ve blood:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh_blood_group_system

    Many Blessings.
    Hey there Cheow,

    You are correct. I can not prove the number is 95%. It could be 97% or maybe it's only 93% depending on the how many people have been isolated from the general interbreeding world population. But the fact that we're all cousins is incontrovertible. It's very easy to prove. All it would take is one wandering Jew to have a child with a Chinese woman and BANG! the entire Chinese gene pool would soon be carnal children of Isaac. Given the hundreds of thousands of Israelites were dispersed like seed from Israel in the year 722 BC, we know that they have been interbreeding with Gentiles for about 2700 years (135 generations!) But after only about 30 generations their DNA was dispersed throughout the interbreeding population in which they participated, and now, after 135 generations, almost everyone on the entire planet has been genetically converted to being carnal sons of Isaac.

    If you still don't understand, Google "we're all cousins." Here and here a good a couple good articles to start with.

    All the very best, Cousin Cheow!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #14
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    Cheow
    Obviously we are all 100% descended from Noah
    It is only 'obvious' if you believe in Hyper-evolution. Are you an evolutionist?
    Brother Les

  5. #15
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    I believe that all mankind descended from the sons of Noah (Ham, Shem, Japheth) as the bible said. Don't you agree?

    I don't believe in evolution. I believe everything is created by God. Just an analogy.... are van, bus, truck evolved from car just because all have 4 wheels, an engine, a bonnet, headlights, windscreen, mirrors etc. ? Same goes with motorbike evolving from bicycle? ship evolving from boat? No, they are all man-made i.e. Created by design.

    Many Blessings.

  6. #16
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    Cheow
    I believe that all mankind descended from the sons of Noah (Ham, Shem, Japheth) as the bible said. Don't you agree?
    no


    I don't believe that Adam was the first humanoid.
    I don't believe that Adam physically died in the day that he did eat.
    I dont' believe that the animals that Adam named would have lived forever if Adam had not have 'sinned'.
    I don't believe in the 'literal' 24hr, 6 day creation.
    I don't believe the 'snake' in the 'Garden' (East of Eden) was an animal that we think of as a 'snake' (in the grass)
    I don't believe the the sun moon and stars will fall from the 'literal' sky.
    I don't believe that the physicals 'elements' of the physical earth will 'melt'
    Last edited by Brother Les; 08-24-2010 at 11:07 AM.
    Brother Les

  7. #17
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    I'm not surprised those who interpret "and so all Israel shall be saved" to mean a massive, national conversion reserved for "Jews" have not answered the questions (see post #9 above) that naturally follow from this odd viewpoint. It happens all the time.

    IMO, it is because the answers cannot be reconciled with some very fundamental tenants of the Christian faith:
    * salvation is a personal issue,
    * genetics and ethnicity have nothing to do with salvation
    * the type (the nation of Israel and the Hebrew people) serves no purpose after the anti-type is revealed.
    * no covenant with anyone is necessary or relevent after the perfect New Covenant was established by Christ, so continuing one's "Jewish content" (whether it can be quantified or not) has zero standing with God.
    * there are only 2 groups of people: believers in Christ and unbelievers. Not 3: believers, Gentile unbelievers (who won't be saved en masse), and Jewish unbelievers (who WILL be saved en masse).

    It seems pretty simple to me:

    Rom 11:26 - "all Israel shall be saved" = Every single one of God's chosen people (the remnant) who are believers in Christ would be saved. Jer 31:31 and Heb 8:8 is speaking of them.

    Rom 9:6-8 - "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" = Don't think that just because you have Abraham for your father, you are ALL ISRAEL". (Matt 3:7) Paul said this because it was a strong belief among the Jews at the time.

    The Christ-accepting remnant was a subset of the entire ethnic nation. And they were ALL SAVED.

    That aligns perfectly with NT teaching of salvation.

    Peace to you,
    Dave
    Last edited by basilfo; 08-24-2010 at 02:40 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    no


    I don't believe that Adam was the first humanoid.
    I don't believe that Adam physically died in the day that he did eat.
    I dont' believe that the animals that Adam named would have lived forever if Adam had not have 'sinned'.
    I don't believe in the 'literal' 24hr, 6 day creation.
    I don't believe the 'snake' in the 'Garden' (East of Eden) was an animal that we think of as a 'snake' (in the grass)
    I don't believe the the sun moon and stars will fall from the 'literal' sky.
    I don't believe that the physicals 'elements' of the physical earth will 'melt'
    I guess you don't believe Jesus died on the cross as well......Brother Les really needs our prayers.

    Many Blessings.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Excellent question Dave!

    If an Israelite is defined as any carnal descendant of Isaac, then almost everyone is an Israelite. This is because the ten northern tribes have been dispersed and interbreeding with the Gentiles for over 100 generations so we must conclude through population dynamics that about 95% of the population of the planet can trace their ancestry to Isaac. This means the current ratio of "Israelites" to "Gentiles" is about 19 to 1! Almost all the Gentiles have been converted to Israelites through interbreeding!



    It would be very interesting to see how they fit that into their end time theories. I hope one of them tries.

    Richard
    Here's an article from ScienceDaily that explains how a scientist has concluded that everyone currently living - that's all of us - are descended from the "identical ancestors" who lived only 2000 years ago:
    While we may not all be 'brothers,' the models suggest we are all hundredth cousins or so," said Joseph T. Chang, professor in the Department of Statistics at Yale University and senior author on the paper.

    Chang established the basis of this research in a previous publication with an intentionally simplified model that ignored such complexities as geography and migration. Those precise mathematical results showed that in a world obeying the simplified assumptions, the most recent common ancestor would have lived less than 1,000 years ago. He also introduced the "identical ancestors point," the most recent time -- less than 2,000 years ago in the simplified model -- when each person was an ancestor to all or ancestor to none of the people alive today.


    The current paper presents more realistic mathematical and computer models. It incorporates factors such as socially driven mating, physical barriers of geography and migration, and recorded historical events. Although such complexities make pure mathematical analysis difficult, it was possible to integrate them into an elaborate computer simulation model. The computer repeatedly simulated history under varying assumptions, tracking the lives, movements, and reproduction of all people who lived within the last 20,000 years.


    These more realistic models estimate that the most recent common ancestor of mankind lived as recently as about 3,000 years ago, and the identical ancestors point was as recent as several thousand years ago. The paper suggests, "No matter the languages we speak or the color of our skin, we share ancestors who planted rice on the banks of the Yangtze, who first domesticated horses on the steppes of the Ukraine, who hunted giant sloths in the forests of North and South America, and who labored to build the Great Pyramid of Khufu."
    This means that every person living is a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!

    This is easy to understand. Basically, population dynamics is like a drop of ink in water. It doesn't take long until it is diffused throughout the whole.

    This absolutely destroys the dispensational theory based on the carnal bloodline of Abraham. I would be delighted if anyone would like to attempt to challenge this conclusion.

    All the very best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #20
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    Richard,
    As an engineer, I appreciate the very convincing scientific arguement, however, it is unnessary. You presented IMO the most powerful reason that ethnic, genetic "Jewishness" is irrelevent today:

    2) A Jew is DEFINED by a covenant relation to God.

    Of course, there is also an ethnic definition of a Jew (or more accurately Israelite) meaning "carnal son of Isaac." But Scripture makes it clear that God never gave any promises to the carnal sons of Abraham. All the promises of God are for the children of promise and are inherited by faith only.

    There are now no "Jews" in the Biblical sense because the first covenant no longer exists so there is nothing to define them. It has been superseded by the New Covenant by the death of the Testator, Christ. This is why the Dispensational system that invents a future for carnal Israel is so profoundly contrary to the plain teaching of Holy Scripture.
    Since there are no ethnic/genetic distinctions made under the NC, and the NC is in effect today for all people, what other covenant is relevent?

    The issue hinges on how you answer this question:

    Did the New Covenant supersede the first covenant?

    Dispensationalists think the NC does not count or apply to Jews today. (Jer 31 must be missing from their Bibles.) They say Jews are still defined by the Mosaic covenant. (Hebrews, Galatians must also be missing.) I don't get it.

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