Invitation to Two-Spirits: Revelation Contradicts F&P Preterist Teachings

[Beck]

I never addressed Luke 12:1 because the passages are not the same, its like apples and oranges. The literal translation in Luke is “multitudes” (#3461 “muriadon”-”murias”).

“--multitudes of people were gathered together--”

"Multitude---"

3461. murias
ten thousand, a myriad

Word Origin
from murios
Definition
ten thousand, a myriad

3463. murios

Word Origin
a prim. word
Definition
countless, pl. ten thousand

ten thousand.

Plural of an apparently primary word (properly, meaning very many); ten thousand; by extension, innumerably many -- ten thousand.

Rev. 9:16, John's passage literally reads “--ten thousands (“dismuriades”) of ten thousands (“muriadon”). Or “--myriads (plural; ten thousand) of myriads (plural; ten thousand).”

Luke's passage--“--multitudes (”murias”) of people were gathered together--”

Above you said, “You never addressed how in Luke 12:1 that an "innumerable multitiude" would be as the same number represented as thousands of thousands.”

You have Luke's meaning as being the same as John's meaning, which is wrong, its not the same. There's a big difference between the two passages. The number John “heard” is the number “he wrote down,” and it totals to much, much more than 9000 troops released at the Euphrates in the War with the Jews in the 1st century.



Couldn't have said it any better, thank's Cheow

God bless---Twospirits

With all the word definitions you seem to be missing the meaning, it is simply an uninumerable number. You seem to be saying that the "innumerable mulitude" is far less that the ten thousands of ten thousands.

If you actually looked the usage of "thousands" Strong's G3461 - myrias has in it's definition as a innumerable mulitiude.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3461&t=KJV

[Twospirits]

Beck wrote,

With all the word definitions you seem to be missing the meaning, it is simply an uninumerable number. You seem to be saying that the "innumerable mulitude" is far less that the ten thousands of ten thousands.

If you actually looked the usage of "thousands" Strong's G3461 - myrias has in it's definition as a innumerable mulitiude.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3461&t=KJV

Isn't this what I've been conveying in different ways in several of my posts? That John's words mean a "vast" (innumerable) number of troops released at the Euphrates?

Bottom line:-- Would you or would you not say that it was "a number vastly larger" than the 9000 troops released at the Euphrates in the War with the Jews in 70 A.D.? That's what my main argument is about, not on the number having to be "exact" in their "counting." This is what the prophecy demands in its fulfillment. An innumerable multitude of troops (more than 9000) released AT the Euphrates River---."

God bless---Twospirits

[Beck]

Isn't this what I've been conveying in different ways in several of my posts? That John's words mean a "vast" (innumerable) number of troops released at the Euphrates?

Bottom line:-- Would you or would you not say that it was "a number vastly larger" than the 9000 troops released at the Euphrates in the War with the Jews in 70 A.D.? That's what my main argument is about, not on the number having to be "exact" in their "counting." This is what the prophecy demands in its fulfillment. An innumerable multitude of troops (more than 9000) released AT the Euphrates River---."

God bless---Twospirits

Right, in that light can it be said, as much as those that stood before Jesus as an innumerable mulitiude. That link I provided would show that the usage is the same both refer to an unknown number. Just how many would be possible that day before Jesus? Knowing that number which I doubt to be as many as ten thousands of ten thousands would agree more with history that not agreeing.

[Twospirits]

Beck wrote,

Knowing that number which I doubt to be as many as ten thousands of ten thousands would agree more with history that not agreeing.

So my question again (to one and all), would you or would you not say that it was "a number vastly larger" than the 9000 troops released at the Euphrates in the War with the Jews in 70 A.D.?

An innumerable multitude of troops (more than 9000) released AT the Euphrates River---." What the prophecy demands in its fulfillment.


God bless---Twospirits

[TheForgiven]

It doesn't matter? Looking to the prophetic events of “how” and “where” and its “numbers” given in the prophecy doesn't matter? Then why bother giving us prophecy at all if it “doesn't matter?” Well I'll tell you, because it “does matter!!” What are we to look for concerning the fulfillment of the 6th trumpet? That they would be “loosed AT the River Euphrates” (Rev. 9:14). And what would be loosed we are told in Rev. 9:16, “And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand; and I heard the number of them.” Now John said he “heard” the number, and John was told to write down “all” that he would “see and hear” (Rev. 1:19; Rev. 22:8). So since John heard the number, he wrote it down in the way they wrote numbers in their time, “---two hundred thousand thousand;--.”

The problem my brother in Christ, is that you are making the same error the first century Jews made, given their reasons for rejecting Jesus as the Christ. One very strong reason they rejected the Messiah (being the same reason why modern day secular Jews reject Jesus) is because "Elijah" had not physically returned, per their expectation.

They reasoned among themselves that Elijah departed in the flesh, and would return in the flesh. And unless Elijah physically returns in the flesh, just as He departed, then it was impossible for Jesus to be the Christ, sense Elijah did not come before Him (in the flesh). Sound familiar?

You, in the same way, are reasoning within yourself, that because the armies were not as immense, (or at least closer to 200,000,000), then it's impossible to consider the 6th Trumpet fulfilled in the 60's AD. This requires the use of the eye, and not the mind. On a side note, should we not also consider that some of those armies were perhaps demons? I'm not saying that they were, but who's to say that Demons were not included in this event? At any rate, the Prophesy fits well between the 5th and 6th seal, although you do not agree simply on the total number of troops sent upon Apostate Israel. This shows a lack of faith, and more trust in our eyes, would you not agree?

If you read my post about how prophesy is fulfilled, you should have more than ample proof that God is in control of History, but doesn't always fulfill History as it is written. In considering this, even brother Beck showed you that "Myriads" of people showed up to hear Jesus speaking, is the same "Myriads" of soldiers who came crashing down upon Apostate Israel.

Soldier counts are not enough reason to reject the fulfillment of the 6th Trumpet in the first century, especially when we do not have an accurate head count; only written sources, which were probably guesses or estimations at best.

The US Air Force has less than 400,000 troops, yet at no time are all 400,000 thousand sent to combat locations at the same time. It only takes about 100,000 spread all over the globe to deliver lethal Air Power upon our enemies; very lethal and effective.

The Roman military and their allies were attacking a rogue group of zealets that did their best to defend their city. But Roman technology was far too superior. Without the help of God (which is what the Jews thought they would receive), Rome defeated them, and fulfilled the Prophets who spoke of their pending destruction. More than a million Jews were killed, which (I'm certain) took way more than 500,000 soldiers combined (Rome and her allies). My estimations are based from the time the war started, to the time everything eventually came to an end.

Now let us consider another way of expressing our ideas. I'm outside cutting grass, and suddenly I come upon a beehive. "OUCH!" I yell, as I'm stung nearly all over my body. "Man! Feels like I've been stung by a thousand bees!" Yet in reality, I was probably only stung by a hundred or so. Get my point? That's what John was conveying to his audience, that their would be an enormously large army to attack the earth/land. The size DOES NOT matter.

Joe

[Beck]

So my question again (to one and all), would you or would you not say that it was "a number vastly larger" than the 9000 troops released at the Euphrates in the War with the Jews in 70 A.D.?

An innumerable multitude of troops (more than 9000) released AT the Euphrates River---." What the prophecy demands in its fulfillment.


God bless---Twospirits

Is that the same understanding you give for the innumerable mulitiude in Luke 12:1 if not then I would guess you shouldn't either.

[Twospirits]

TheForgiven wrote,

The problem my brother in Christ, is that you are making the same error the first century Jews made, given their reasons for rejecting Jesus as the Christ. One very strong reason they rejected the Messiah (being the same reason why modern day secular Jews reject Jesus) is because "Elijah" had not physically returned, per their expectation.

They reasoned among themselves that Elijah departed in the flesh, and would return in the flesh. And unless Elijah physically returns in the flesh, just as He departed, then it was impossible for Jesus to be the Christ, sense Elijah did not come before Him (in the flesh). Sound familiar?

Now you're telling me that I think like the 1st century Jews when I shouldn't be, but before you were insisting that I THINK LIKE a 1st century Jew so which is it?

You, in the same way, are reasoning within yourself, that because the armies were not as immense, (or at least closer to 200,000,000), then it's impossible to consider the 6th Trumpet fulfilled in the 60's AD.

Again, where did I ever say that these armies must meet close to, "if not" the count of 200,000,000? I don't ever recall saying that, that's your reasoning not mine, just like the above statement.

Soldier counts are not enough reason to reject the fulfillment of the 6th Trumpet in the first century, especially when we do not have an accurate head count; only written sources, which were probably guesses or estimations at best.

The Romans were very accurate in everything they done, so I'm sure Josephus' records came from the General Titus and Vespasian themselves as to the amount of troops they amassed. Besides, the head count that matters are those released at the Euphrates, the troops from Syria, and Josephus records a total of 9000 troops amassed from there through the duration of the war. And they do not meet the fulfillment of the 6th trumpet.

More than a million Jews were killed, which (I'm certain) took way more than 500,000 soldiers combined (Rome and her allies). My estimations are based from the time the war started, to the time everything eventually came to an end.

Please show me those sources from where your estimations came from where more than 500,000 soldiers would be used during the war. And remember they must come from the Euphrates border areas to meet the prophecy's requirements.

Now let us consider another way of expressing our ideas. I'm outside cutting grass, and suddenly I come upon a beehive. "OUCH!" I yell, as I'm stung nearly all over my body. "Man! Feels like I've been stung by a thousand bees!" Yet in reality, I was probably only stung by a hundred or so. Get my point? That's what John was conveying to his audience, that their would be an enormously large army to attack the earth/land. The size DOES NOT matter.

Your doing it again, giving scenarios that have nothing to do with the "meaning" (translation) of the passage of the 6th trumpet.

God bless---Twospirits

[Twospirits]

Beck wrote,

Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
So my question again (to one and all), would you or would you not say that it was "a number vastly larger" than the 9000 troops released at the Euphrates in the War with the Jews in 70 A.D.?

An innumerable multitude of troops (more than 9000) released AT the Euphrates River---." What the prophecy demands in its fulfillment.


God bless---Twospirits

Is that the same understanding you give for the innumerable mulitiude in Luke 12:1 if not then I would guess you shouldn't either.

I gave you my answer, read it again,

Rev. 9:16, John's passage literally reads “--ten thousands (“dismuriades”) of ten thousands (“muriadon”). Or “--myriads (plural; ten thousand) of myriads (plural; ten thousand).”

Luke's passage--“--multitudes (”murias”) of people were gathered together--”

Above you said, “You never addressed how in Luke 12:1 that an "innumerable multitiude" would be as the same number represented as thousands of thousands.”

You have Luke's meaning as being the same as John's meaning, which is wrong, its not the same. There's a big difference between the two passages. The number John “heard” is the number “he wrote down,” and it totals to much, much more than 9000 troops released at the Euphrates in the War with the Jews in the 1st century.

There's a big difference between the wording of the two passages, so that's why I do understand and take it differently.

God bless---Twospirits

[Beck]

I gave you my answer, read it again,



There's a big difference between the wording of the two passages, so that's why I do understand and take it differently.

God bless---Twospirits

I guess a picture is worth a thousands words, not literally a thousand words. of course.

Here we have both words from Luke 12:1 "innumerable mulitiude" and Revelation 9:16 "thousands" as myrias, Strong's G3461 - myrias.



Check it out yourself.
Luke 12:1
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...12&v=16&t=KJV#

Revelation 9:16
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...&v=16&t=KJV#16

[TheForgiven]

TheForgiven wrote,

The problem my brother in Christ, is that you are making the same error the first century Jews made, given their reasons for rejecting Jesus as the Christ. One very strong reason they rejected the Messiah (being the same reason why modern day secular Jews reject Jesus) is because "Elijah" had not physically returned, per their expectation.

They reasoned among themselves that Elijah departed in the flesh, and would return in the flesh. And unless Elijah physically returns in the flesh, just as He departed, then it was impossible for Jesus to be the Christ, sense Elijah did not come before Him (in the flesh). Sound familiar?

Now you're telling me that I think like the 1st century Jews when I shouldn't be, but before you were insisting that I THINK LIKE a 1st century Jew so which is it?

I never said you should think like a 1st century Jew. I stated in the past that you should consider what Revelation meant to the first century "Christians", who are of course Jews according to Christ. Just wanted to clarify that. We know the definition of a Jew, but I was referring to Jews of the flesh in my statement regarding Elijah's coming.

You, in the same way, are reasoning within yourself, that because the armies were not as immense, (or at least closer to 200,000,000), then it's impossible to consider the 6th Trumpet fulfilled in the 60's AD.

Again, where did I ever say that these armies must meet close to, "if not" the count of 200,000,000? I don't ever recall saying that, that's your reasoning not mine, just like the above statement.

You just did on this post. I know you aren't suggesting that the exact number of troops be 200,000,000 million. But you're using a source from Josephus stating that roughly 9,000 troops were sent from the Euphrates river (which even by our standards is a heck of a lot of soldiers). I was in Turkey back in 2000, and there were 2,000 army troops infesting (just a joke) the Air Base. It seemed that everywhere you walked, an army grunt was in front, on the side, or behind you; THEY WERE EVERYWHERE man! Just kidding of course, but you get my point? To me, a mere 2,000 solders on a small base was more than I could handle. I couldn't imagine seeing 9,000 coming upon me, although I'm sure there were a lot more. I doubt that Josephus recorded every nations militaristic contributions to the war.

Then again, are we to assume that ONLY 9,000 came from the Euphrates? I'm sure there were a lot more than that. After all, nearly every city throughout Israel was being attacked, food taken, women and children murdered, trees cut down, etc. etc. You think 9,000 is enough to accomplish this massive feet upon such a large nation?

Soldier counts are not enough reason to reject the fulfillment of the 6th Trumpet in the first century, especially when we do not have an accurate head count; only written sources, which were probably guesses or estimations at best.

The Romans were very accurate in everything they done, so I'm sure Josephus' records came from the General Titus and Vespasian themselves as to the amount of troops they amassed. Besides, the head count that matters are those released at the Euphrates, the troops from Syria, and Josephus records a total of 9000 troops amassed from there through the duration of the war. And they do not meet the fulfillment of the 6th trumpet.

Ah! So now they're accurate? This must mean that the miraculous events that took place over Jerusalem prior to her destruction is accurate as well. So not to change the subject, but what do you think of the different signs that took place over Jerusalem, as recorded by Josephus and Tacitus?

1. Comet that lasted more than a year
2. Huge earth quake, followed by a magnificent voice which said, "Let us leave this place..."
3. Huge gate of the temple opened by itself
4. A young man comes prophesying, "The Son cometh! The Son cometh! A voice from the East! A voice from the West!" He was tortured and killed for simply uttering these words.
5. The hand that came down and snatched the keys from the Priests (although this was probably a fraudulent addition to his writings.)
6. Angels seen flying high in the heavens above Jerusalem, in chariots of fire; the Romans assumed the gods were departing, and the Jews assumed that God was helping them in their fight against the Romans.

I find it very interesting that you take the numbers recorded by Josephus as accurate, but I wonder if you consider the miraculous accounts as accurate? Surely those signs would be more than enough in our day to make everyone wonder if the world was about to end. Why not the 1st century beholders?

More than a million Jews were killed, which (I'm certain) took way more than 500,000 soldiers combined (Rome and her allies). My estimations are based from the time the war started, to the time everything eventually came to an end.

Please show me those sources from where your estimations came from where more than 500,000 soldiers would be used during the war. And remember they must come from the Euphrates border areas to meet the prophecy's requirements.

I wasn't quoting a source, but giving you a logical guesstimate. Me being an active duty member, and understanding ancient combat tactics, 9,000 troops would not be enough to accomplish an attack on the entire northern region of Israel; especially considering the amount of cities that were hit.

Besides, why to you keep insisting literally that they must all come from the river Euphrates? I don't think you realize the trap you're setting for yourself. How long is the Euphrates river? Why would all the soldiers have to come from the river? Is the Euphrates river meant to be taken literally? Can this river even be large enough to accommodate even 1,000,000 million soldiers? You're too stuck on numbers bro. Really Henry. You should learn to govern your passions. They will be your undoing.

Now let us consider another way of expressing our ideas. I'm outside cutting grass, and suddenly I come upon a beehive. "OUCH!" I yell, as I'm stung nearly all over my body. "Man! Feels like I've been stung by a thousand bees!" Yet in reality, I was probably only stung by a hundred or so. Get my point? That's what John was conveying to his audience, that their would be an enormously large army to attack the earth/land. The size DOES NOT matter.

Your doing it again, giving scenarios that have nothing to do with the "meaning" (translation) of the passage of the 6th trumpet.

Are you kidding me? It has everything to do. John sees a vision of an army in immense size. Like the bee-stings, what may have literally been 50 or so bee stings, may feel like 1,000. It's called, "DRAMA" my friend. Say it with me. D-R-A-M-A Drama is emotional content of a play, movie, and/or story. Prophesy is always told in this fashion. In Drama, there are story's, plays, movies, etc. all containing love, suspense, sadness, and excitement. Revelation is a prophetic story told in dramatic fashion. But you're not interpreting Revelation in this manner; you (like some sort of historic scientist) are interpreting Revelation as a literal road map to the future. But Revelation is NOT a crystal ball road-map of the future. Besides, do you really believe that Jesus would send a written message to 7 Churches simply for the sake of keeping Christians on their toes for the next 2,000 years, plus? Once again, 1st century relevance. I promise you bro, your ideas (although sound according to modern day Evangelicals) would make absolutely no sense to the early church; not even by accident.

You do enjoy watching movies with Drama, right? Try reading Revelation in this way. The Old Testament prophecies are the same. Read Lamentations; a perfect example of Drama from Solomon's cry for the cities of Israel.

Good luck bro.

Joe