Salvation for All….the Greater Good

[Rose]

Hi Rose,



My point was that it was written to those who were living. It was sent to the seven churches, but it applies to all those living who hear it in the future. Those who have died are judged and if their name was not found written in the Lamb's book of life they were cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. People who are born into this life are born into sin and are by default separated from God until they come into a relationship with Jesus Christ. When a person is thrown into the Lake of Fire they undergo the second death which suggest to me something that is irreversible and final. The judgment that has been rendered is eternal and won't be altered.

Clifford

Hi Clifford,

The only judgment I see as being rendered eternal and unalterable is that of God's judgment on the Old Covenant system, that is to say the Law. When Christ brought in the New Covenant by the shedding of His blood the Old began to vanish away. That process was finalized when the stones of the temple came down in AD 70 leaving it desolate....to be found no more!

Revelation is the vision given to John of the demise of the Old Covenant system of the Law. When that process was completed in Revelation 20 with the passing away of the Old, we see chapter 21 starting with a New Heaven and Earth...a new system out of which flow living waters which all may partake of. This is outside of the time constraints which were applicable to the Old Covenant system, now all those who are still abiding outside the gates in sin may drink of the living water whenever they wish to enter in to life in Christ.

Rose

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Hi Clifford,

The only judgment I see as being rendered eternal and unalterable is that of God's judgment on the Old Covenant system, that is to say the Law. When Christ brought in the New Covenant by the shedding of His blood the Old began to vanish away. That process was finalized when the stones of the temple came down in AD 70 leaving it desolate....to be found no more!

Rose

Disagree Rose, but not much time to interact. There is also a individual judgment against the law of sin/death that needs remedied. Romans 8:2 refers to the individual judgment and Romans 10:4 refers to the freedom and ending of the corporal law.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If 'salvation' is for ALL in the manner that you portray, what is the need to be "born again" in the manner that Jesus taught.?

The middle of Romans talks alot about the need to remedy and be 'saved' that law of sin/death and seperation from the Father/Creator and the rebirth and adoption as sons of God by the Spirit. And it talks of how the creator himself took upon himself the judgment of that law to cancel it for those who believe.

I can understand how you come to your perpsectives if you have a weak historical perspective of things before Abraham... such as the flood, tower of babel, long lives before the flood and the creation of man on the earth. This showed up in the discussion about the old covenant being that which was delievered to Abraham or to Moses. The mosaic covenant is that which was made "OLD" while as Paul mentions in Gal 4, christians are of the promise made to Isaac and covenant made with Abraham.
I think we left that discussion unresoved.

[Rose]

Disagree Rose, but not much time to interact. There is also a individual judgment against the law of sin/death that needs remedied. Romans 8:2 refers to the individual judgment and Romans 10:4 refers to the freedom and ending of the corporal law.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If 'salvation' is for ALL in the manner that you portray, what is the need to be "born again" in the manner that Jesus taught.?

The middle of Romans talks alot about the need to remedy and be 'saved' that law of sin/death and seperation from the Father/Creator and the rebirth and adoption as sons of God by the Spirit. And it talks of how the creator himself took upon himself the judgment of that law to cancel it for those who believe.

I can understand how you come to your perpsectives if you have a weak historical perspective of things before Abraham... such as the flood, tower of babel, long lives before the flood and the creation of man on the earth. This showed up in the discussion about the old covenant being that which was delievered to Abraham or to Moses. The mosaic covenant is that which was made "OLD" while as Paul mentions in Gal 4, christians are of the promise made to Isaac and covenant made with Abraham.
I think we left that discussion unresoved.

Hi Endtimes,

To answer your question "what is the need to be "born again" in the manner that Jesus taught.?" very simply I would say the person who receives Christ in this life can begin to grow with a foundation of knowledge and truth, because the kingdom of God is now within them, whereas the person whose life is lived without Christ has a loss in this life which can never be gained even though salvation is received at some point after death.

As I have said in other posts, I believe this life is a time of shaping our souls for eternity....our actions are the one thing that we have control of in this life, so as our knowledge and understanding of God grows it influences our actions, thus we shape our souls.

Rose

[Clifford]

Hi Clifford,

The only judgment I see as being rendered eternal and unalterable is that of God's judgment on the Old Covenant system, that is to say the Law. When Christ brought in the New Covenant by the shedding of His blood the Old began to vanish away. That process was finalized when the stones of the temple came down in AD 70 leaving it desolate....to be found no more!

Revelation is the vision given to John of the demise of the Old Covenant system of the Law. When that process was completed in Revelation 20 with the passing away of the Old, we see chapter 21 starting with a New Heaven and Earth...a new system out of which flow living waters which all may partake of. This is outside of the time constraints which were applicable to the Old Covenant system, now all those who are still abiding outside the gates in sin may drink of the living water whenever they wish to enter in to life in Christ.

Rose

Hi Rose,

The judgment in Revelation 20 is upon people for it specifically says every person will be judged according to what he has done. When the scripture speaks about the judgment upon the Old Covenant system it uses different terminology. For example in Matthew 24 it uses terms like

the sun will be darkened,
the moon will give no light,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken

to describe the passing of one system to another or a change in the established order like one covenant to another.

Similar language in used in 2 peter 3:10 to describe the passing away of the Old Covenant.

But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

These verses don't talk about people being judged like in Revelation 20 because it is dealing with the judgment of the Old Covenant system whereas Revelation 20 is dealing with the judgment of people.

Clifford

[Rose]

Hi Rose,

The judgment in Revelation 20 is upon people for it specifically says every person will be judged according to what he has done. When the scripture speaks about the judgment upon the Old Covenant system it uses different terminology. For example in Matthew 24 it uses terms like

the sun will be darkened,
the moon will give no light,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken

to describe the passing of one system to another or a change in the established order like one covenant to another.

Similar language in used in 2 peter 3:10 to describe the passing away of the Old Covenant.

But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

These verses don't talk about people being judged like in Revelation 20 because it is dealing with the judgment of the Old Covenant system whereas Revelation 20 is dealing with the judgment of people.

Clifford

Hi Clifford,

Ah, but Revelation 20 does speak of judgment on the Old system, and immediately after Revelation 21 speaks of the coming in of a New system.

Rev.20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev.21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Matt.24, 2Pet, Rev.6, and Rev.20 all speak of the same judgment and passing away of the Old Covenant system of the Law. That is what the entire book of Revelation is about....judgment and destruction of the Old and the ushering in of the New by Jesus Christ.

Judgment upon individuals did not happen at just one point in time....I believe that each person upon death is judged for the works done in this life. The judgment of AD 70 spoken of in Revelation was a corporate judgment upon a system, and those who remained under it died in judgment with it - though I think each individual under the Old system was also judged for the specific works done in their lives.

Rose

[Clifford]

Hi Clifford,

Ah, but Revelation 20 does speak of judgment on the Old system, and immediately after Revelation 21 speaks of the coming in of a New system.

Rev.20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev.21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Matt.24, 2Pet, Rev.6, and Rev.20 all speak of the same judgment and passing away of the Old Covenant system of the Law. That is what the entire book of Revelation is about....judgment and destruction of the Old and the ushering in of the New by Jesus Christ.

Judgment upon individuals did not happen at just one point in time....I believe that each person upon death is judged for the works done in this life. The judgment of AD 70 spoken of in Revelation was a corporate judgment upon a system, and those who remained under it died in judgment with it - though I think each individual under the Old system was also judged for the specific works done in their lives.

Rose

Hi Rose,

I agree that the book of Revelation is mostly about the judgment and dissolution of the Old Covenant system and the bringing in the New Covenant system. However Revelation 20 speaks of the judgment of people too, those who refused to enter into the New Heavens and the New Earth, or the New Covenant, and the consequences thereof, being throw into the Lake of Fire.

Clifford

[joel]

The judgment of AD 70 spoken of in Revelation was a corporate judgment upon a system, and those who remained under it died in judgment with it - though I think each individual under the Old system was also judged for the specific works done in their lives.

"...a corporate judgment upon a system..." Did God put a system in place, then, later, when it didn't work, destroy the system and those who were in it?

"...those who remained under it died in judgment with it...." You say that God judged the system which He put in place, and judged the entire nation who remained under it.......plus He judges each individual under the Old System.......seems rather "unjust" wouldn't you say?

Could it be that the destruction of the Temple caused the sacrifices under the law of Moses to cease in so far as the High Priest of the order of Melchezedek could enter into the Temple not made with hands in the heavens and perform His holy duties?

Where in the teachings of the apostles are your views concerning the so-called corporate judgment of 70 AD to be found?

Please be specific.......

Joel

[Rose]

"...a corporate judgment upon a system..." Did God put a system in place, then, later, when it didn't work, destroy the system and those who were in it?

"...those who remained under it died in judgment with it...." You say that God judged the system which He put in place, and judged the entire nation who remained under it.......plus He judges each individual under the Old System.......seems rather "unjust" wouldn't you say?

Could it be that the destruction of the Temple caused the sacrifices under the law of Moses to cease in so far as the High Priest of the order of Melchezedek could enter into the Temple not made with hands in the heavens and perform His holy duties?

Where in the teachings of the apostles are your views concerning the so-called corporate judgment of 70 AD to be found?

Please be specific.......

Joel

If the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 wasn't judgment upon the Old Covenant system of the Law, then what was it?

The individual judgment I was speaking of is that of each man who stands before God accountable for what he has done with his life.

Partaking in the judgment of the nation was the choice of those Jews who chose to hang onto the Law and perish with the Law, instead of accepting Christ who came to free them from the Law.


Rose

[joel]

Rose, I asked you;

"Where in the teachings of the apostles are your views concerning the so-called corporate judgment of 70 AD to be found?

Please be specific......."

Joel
------------------------------------------------

And you answered with a question;

"If the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 wasn't judgment upon the Old Covenant system of the Law, then what was it?"

Can you direct me to scripture that would be considered the apostle's teaching?

Joel

[Rose]

Rose, I asked you;

"Where in the teachings of the apostles are your views concerning the so-called corporate judgment of 70 AD to be found?

Please be specific......."

Joel
------------------------------------------------

And you answered with a question;

"If the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 wasn't judgment upon the Old Covenant system of the Law, then what was it?"

Can you direct me to scripture that would be considered the apostle's teaching?

Joel

The term I used "corporate" was descriptive of apostate Israel as a whole, that is to say all those who chose to remain under the Old Covenant system of the Law were judged by that system when it was destroyed, and they perished.

Rom.2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

If you would have answered my question on what the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 represented, then I could have understood exactly what you don't understand and attempted to clarify it for you.


Rose