Have you counted or calculated?

[Stephen]

Hi again, Richard!

A variation on the multiples of 10 theme relating to the numbers 232 and 2320 follows:

1. Let there be light = 232 = Word of the Lord
2. Exodus 6:3 = 2320

The verse at Exodus 6:3 hinges on God revealing something of Himself, bringing something to light that hadn't previously appeared. Clearly, the name Jehovah was known to Abraham, because he named a place Jehovah-jireh. So God must be speaking about more than just a name when He says that He wasn't known by His 'name' Jehovah to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The verse sum of 2320 seems to accentuate some greater meaning contained within the name Jehovah. This accent seems to focus on appearance or manifestation, as in the related "Let there be light" = 232. Just a thought.

Stephen

[ccc]

Richard, I will respond shortly. And no, I do not get frustrated with your "obstinacy" ... we seek the truth, and it causes me to examine some of my conclusions.

Stephen,

Thanks for your "standards" for gematria to be inspired.
And thanks for those comments about Ivan Panin.

I had often wondered why Vernon Jenkins, Richard and the author of Theomatics gave no credit or mention of him.

However, I believe it was Panin that pointed out about the controversial last 12 verses of Mark. Apparently some "scholars" are in doubt as to their inclusion in the canon.

Mark consists of 678 verses. If the last 12 are removed ... ...

[Stephen]

Hi ccc!

Yes, I think those 'scholars' that try to excise the last 12 verses of Mark's gospel should have their own portion excised from the kingdom of God. I have absolutely no doubt that those verses in question are the inspired word of God. Having read Panin's work on these verses, I find it to be meritorious. However, it is his work in general - and not particulars, such as the treatment of the last 12 verses of Mark - that has been discredited.

Stephen

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, I will respond shortly. And no, I do not get frustrated with your "obstinacy" ... we seek the truth, and it causes me to examine some of my conclusions.

Excellent! I glad you are here to work through these things with us, and to challenge our ideas.

Stephen,

Thanks for your "standards" for gematria to be inspired.
And thanks for those comments about Ivan Panin.

I had often wondered why Vernon Jenkins, Richard and the author of Theomatics gave no credit or mention of him.

I don't mention him only because I never think of him. I don't have any books that he wrote, and I don't use any of his results, so there is nothing for me to say. But I think it would be very worthwhile for me to dig into what he has done, and review his work and the criticisms of it.

However, I believe it was Panin that pointed out about the controversial last 12 verses of Mark. Apparently some "scholars" are in doubt as to their inclusion in the canon.

Mark consists of 678 verses. If the last 12 are removed ... ...

That's a very interesting number! But does that mean that the removal of those verses was a sign of their "wisdom" or their "wickedness"? Every number has at least two meanings!

Of course, I stand with you and Stephen and believe that those verses definitely belong in the Bible. If anyone has a link to Panin's work on Mark 16, please share it.

Richard

[ccc]

Hi Richard,

Sorry for the delay in my response, but I now have a better understanding of what you and Stephen believe is the 'standard or requirement' for a language to be inspired.

In another post, I will be asking a few more questions about the language God chose to solve Rev 13:18, but a couple of points to clear up first.

You had asked 'Where did you (ccc) get the idea that the wall in Rev 21 was measured with a gold measuring rod? The text says nothing about this.'

'And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.' Rev 21:15.

'And he measured the wall thereof, and hundred and forty and four cubits …'
Rev 21:17.

Not sure what you are getting at Richard? Are you suggesting that only the wall in verse 15 is measured with a golden reed, but that the one of 144 cubits in verse 17 is measured by a different measuring device?

Or, are you distinguishing between a 'measuring reed' and a 'measuring rod'?

Or, are you distinguishing between a 'golden' reed and a 'gold' reed or rod?

In Ezekiel, a man measures the temple with a measuring rod.
In Rev 11:1, John is given a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise and measure the temple of God.

Next question:

Regarding 'Hebrew Aramaic Greek' summing at 153 using SEG (simple English gematria), I had asked how many other 'three language combinations' might there be within the 1000 that sum at 153?'

You replied 'Good question! I quickly tested 20 common languages and found nine combinations that summed to 153.'

You are the mathematician, not me, but 9 out of 20!
That in itself appears to be one amazing ‘coincidence’.

Last question:

In that the six original characters of Latin summed at 666, you would not consider that language to be inspired would you? Also, would you consider this occurrence of 666 to be coincidence only?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

Sorry for the delay in my response, but I now have a better understanding of what you and Stephen believe is the “standard or requirement” for a language to be inspired.

In another post, I will be asking a few more questions about the language God chose to solve Rev 13:18, but a couple of points to clear up first.

Hey there ccc!

Glad you found time for a visit.

You had asked “Where did you (ccc) get the idea that the wall in Rev 21 was measured with a gold measuring rod? The text says nothing about this.”

“And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.” Rev 21:15.

“And he measured the wall thereof, and hundred and forty and four cubits …”
Rev 21:17.

Not sure what you are getting at Richard? Are you suggesting that only the wall in verse 15 is measured with a golden reed, but that the one of 144 cubits in verse 17 is measured by a different measuring device?

Woops! I have no idea how I overlooked the description of "golden" when I read that passage. Sorry! But on the bright side, at least you know better than to believe anything I say without checking it out for yourself!

Next question:

Regarding “Hebrew Aramaic Greek” summing at 153 using SEG (simple English gematria), I had asked how many other “three language combinations” might there be within the 1000 that sum at 153?”

You replied “Good question! I quickly tested 20 common languages and found nine combinations that summed to 153.”

You are the mathematician, not me, but 9 out of 20!
That in itself appears to be one amazing ‘coincidence’.

Ah ... this shows why its so very important to have a basic understanding of mathematics before one claims that something is mathematically significant. The fact is that the 20 languages I tested all had values between 33 and 97, which means that any combination of them would have to fall between 99 and 291, which is a pretty narrow range with 153 pretty close to the center of the distribution. But even more significant is the fact that it wasn't "9 out of 20." There were 20 languages, which means there were 20 Choose 3 = 20!/[(3!)(17!)] = 20 x 19 x 3 = 1140 possible ways to combine three of those languages. That means that only 9 out of 1140 possibilies, or about 0.79%, summed to 153. This happens to be very close to the expected value. Nothing unusually is going on here at all.

Last question:

In that the six original characters of Latin summed at 666, you would not consider that language to be inspired would you? Also, would you consider this occurrence of 666 to be coincidence only?

I don't know if it was a "coincidence" or not. A single data point is insufficient to settle questions like that. Of course, there is the second witness noted by Irenaeus in the 2nd century that "latinos" (which means "Latin man") also sums to 666. Perhaps I'm just being dense, but there is something about all this that just does not convince me yet.

Richard

[ccc]

An earlier comment of Stephen was: 'I’m not in favor of suggestions that gematria has a major roll to play in interpreting these verses. There is enough information given to make a reasonable case that John is seeing the rise of Romanism as a religious beast. If gematria is to be used at all here, it must be restricted to the number 666. Anything beyond that is inconclusive.'

To which Richard commented: 'It would have to be some very strong gematria to convince me.'

It is common knowledge that the original six characters of Roman numbers sum at 666.

It is denied by Rome, but it has been claimed (by eye witness) that at one time the words 'Vicarius Filii Dei appeared on the papal mitre … vicarious, substituting for, or in place of Christ.

The Roman numerals for VICARIUS FILII DEI = 666
The Roman numbers for DUX CLERI = 666.
Translated, this means 'Captain of the Clergy'

The Hebrew gematria for ROMIITH = 666 … means 'Roman Kingdom'
The Hebrew gematria for ROMITI = 666 … means the 'Roman man'

The Greek gematria (isophezia) for LATEINOS = 666 … the Latin speaking man.

The ancient Greek for 'The Latin Kingdom' is HE LATINE BASILEIA = 666
The ancient Greek for 'Italian Church' is ITALIKA EKKLESIA = 666
(Strong’s G1577)

The ancient Greek for this word … APOSTATES = 666
This information from an SDA site.

'Stigma' is a now obsolete Greek character, but it appears in Revelation 13:18 to give the value 666 (chi xi stigma … Strong’s G5516)

According to Webster’s Dictionary, I believe this sign is placed before the names of popes.

Richard, in an earlier post, you said: 'But as for the direct application of 2 Thess 2:4 to the RCC – that is debated. I am willing to discuss it and look at the evidence. But don’t get upset if I question something. Just prove me wrong and then I will tip my hat and say 'Thanks!'

The following may help in 'tipping your hat'.

'And call no man your father upon the earth; for one is your Father, which is in heaven.' Matt 23:9.

A doctrine of Romanism declares it’s priests to be called 'Father' and it’s pope to be called the 'Holy Father' upon the earth. Either Rome or the Bible must be wrong.

The word 'vicarious' means 'in place of' or 'instead of'. Each pope claims to be the 'Vicar of Christ' … he claims to be Christ on earth.

The following are documented statements:

'The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God.' Ferrasis Ecclesiastical Dictionary.

'The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth'. Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, chapter XXVII, p. 218, 'Cities Petrus Bertanous.'

'The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth … by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by on one, God himself on earth.' Quoted in the New York Catechism.

'To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.' Roman Canon Law of 1685.

Father A. Pereira says: 'It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title ‘Lord God the Pope’ for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII.

Pope Nicholas I declared: 'the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man.' Labb IX Dist,:96 Can.7, Satis Evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para.

'The supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff, Union of minds, therefore, requires … complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.' Leo VIII 'On The Chief duties of Christians As Citizens.' Encyclical letter 1890.

'The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.' Catholic National July 1895.

'We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.' Pope Leo XIII Encyclical letter of June 20, 1894.

After reading these blasphemous papal claims, would it not be reasonable for the student of prophecy to associate them with II Thess 2:3-4 ?

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

To others reading this post, I close with a suggestion. If you do not have a copy of Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, buy one. If you can get through a dozen or so pages without your eyes welling up in tears … you are one hard hearted believer.

This book was (and likely still is) on the 'forbidden' list for Roman Catholics, along with Gibbon’s 'The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire'. At one time, even the Bible was a prohibited book for 'Joe Blow' Roman Catholic !

May all glory power and honor be unto our God, and not unto a Pope.

[Stephen]

Hi ccc!

I've read all those occurrences of the number 666 in relation to the pope and roman catholicism on numerous occasions, both in this millennium and in the previous one. So, as you can tell, I've been around a long time!

But in all seriousness - or as much as I can rally to the cause this late into the afternoon, albeit a gloriously beautiful one after so many weeks of highly unseasonal rain - I'm over the 666 thing now. Think I got over it last millennium. And here's why.

I agree with you that these passages of the Revelation refer to the papacy. Now, to keep things brief, I also think the papacy as a world power is a thing of the past. The papacy is now a white dwarf star. Their great evil is pretty much burnt through, though they might like to think they've got a sting left in their tail still. But I think that's just a misprint. It should be stink, and not sting.

Anyhow, some folks out there on the prairie think the papacy is gonna unite Europe and rise up, monkey-bone in hand, and strike the drums of war one more time before the outhouse goes up in smoke. In my opinion, Elvis left the building once he heard such turkey talk.

Summary: the pope is old news.

Stephen

[ccc]

"... So, as you can tell, I've been around a long time!"

1932 was a good year also Stephen!

Your summary ... the pope is old news.
I agree, and Nero is old news also.

PS

I got over the 666 thing when the "little horn" (John Paul II) and his very "diverse" kingdom (Daniel 7) came up "among them" when the EU became ten.

The original six members of the EU, through the efforts of the Club of Rome, met in the Vatican to formulate this revived "Roman" alliance.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I'm over the 666 thing now. Think I got over it last millennium.

Revelation 15:2 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Was that a deliberate pun?