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Thread: And I saw….

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    I agree, the New Heaven and Earth is the New Covenant and is only occupied by by believers which are the New Jerusalem....for only righteousness can dwell in the NHNE.
    .
    2Pet.3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    .
    Rose
    I think we are a stone's throw apart...and in the grand scale of things, that is MIGHTY CLOSE!

    It is my belief that we tend to think of the NHNE as a "place" rather than an existence. Now, it might not seem that there is much difference between the two, but if we look at the new Ktisis, as the righteous Christian, then the ktisis becomes the essence, being or existence AS the NHNE...

    I think we have been taught for so long that the NHNE was a physical refurbished/restored/recreated planet Earth that although we understand these things as being covenantal, we still tend to think of it as a place.

    How about this for a new equation?

    Believer in Christ (ktisis) = New heaven and earth
    NHNE (Christians) dwells in the New Jerusalem

    As you can see, this view represents the temple INSIDE of the believer, whereas the previous temple of the old covenant was outside. The old covenant conscienceness was visible and physical. The new covenant conscienceness is invisible and spiritual (heart and mind type of thing).

    I found this tough to wrap my head around, but the more I talk about it (as in these discussions) the better I am able to understand and (maybe) even explain it...

    I have posted the content from THIS LINK to DeathIsDefeated for proving, testing, and criticism. I am hoping that I have got it right and haven't messed up too much...

    I wonder what those who believe the NHNE is planet related think when we talk of these covenantal things...
    Last edited by Edward Goodie; 04-07-2010 at 10:19 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    I think we are a stone's throw apart...and in the grand scale of things, that is MIGHTY CLOSE!

    It is my belief that we tend to think of the NHNE as a "place" rather than an existence. Now, it might not seem that there is much difference between the two, but if we look at the new Ktisis, as the righteous Christian, then the ktisis becomes the essence, being or existence AS the NHNE...

    I think we have been taught for so long that the NHNE was a physical refurbished/restored/recreated planet Earth that although we understand these things as being covenantal, we still tend to think of it as a place.

    How about this for a new equation?

    Believer in Christ (ktisis) = New heaven and earth
    NHNE (Christians) dwells in the New Jerusalem

    As you can see, this view represents the temple INSIDE of the believer, whereas the previous temple of the old covenant was outside. The old covenant conscienceness was visible and physical. The new covenant conscienceness is invisible and spiritual (heart and mind type of thing).

    I found this tough to wrap my head around, but the more I talk about it (as in these discussions) the better I am able to understand and (maybe) even explain it...

    I have posted the content from THIS LINK to DeathIsDefeated for proving, testing, and criticism. I am hoping that I have got it right and haven't messed up too much...

    I wonder what those who believe the NHNE is planet related think when we talk of these covenantal things...
    I get what you're saying, but I'm going to have to think about it a bit more.... I'll get back to you tomorrow.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    I get what you're saying, but I'm going to have to think about it a bit more.... I'll get back to you tomorrow.

    Rose
    You mean I won't get to hear from you until Friday...

    Have you read THIS ARTICLE regarding what we have been discussing as yet?

    Nighty-night...don't let the bed bugs bite... (what a stupid saying and how scary for little children!)

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    You mean I won't get to hear from you until Friday...

    Have you read THIS ARTICLE regarding what we have been discussing as yet?

    Nighty-night...don't let the bed bugs bite... (what a stupid saying and how scary for little children!)
    I'm back....

    OK, here's where the problem lies....while I do agree the NHNE refers to the covenant relationship with God's people, I don't think it's the people themselves. We as new creations abide in covenant relationship with Christ, but we are not the covenant relationship itself, it is the system we abide in. Christ brought in the New Covenant to free the Jews from the bondage of the Old Covenant system they were under.
    .
    Heb.9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament , they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    .
    The terms Israel, and Jerusalem always refer to people. In the Old Testament the Jews were called: the daughters of Jerusalem, Israel my beloved, the wife of God, and many more such terms. Nowhere do I see the heaven and earth spoken of as God's people, but rather the system of the Old Covenant that they lived under. Gentiles did not live under that covenant system, but they were able to enter in by conversion, becoming proselytes. The same with the NHNE Covenant system....only those who are new creations in Christ called the New Jerusalem can abide in the NHNE, all others remain outside until they partake of the living waters of eternal life.

    Yes, I did read Tami's article on "The Heavens: Conscience or Cosmos?".


    for the good conversation.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    I'm back....

    OK, here's where the problem lies....while I do agree the NHNE refers to the covenant relationship with God's people, I don't think it's the people themselves. We as new creations abide in covenant relationship with Christ, but we are not the covenant relationship itself, it is the system we abide in. Christ brought in the New Covenant to free the Jews from the bondage of the Old Covenant system they were under.
    .
    Heb.9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament[/B] , they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    .
    The terms Israel, and Jerusalem always refer to people. In the Old Testament the Jews were called: the daughters of Jerusalem, Israel my beloved, the wife of God, and many more such terms. Nowhere do I see the heaven and earth spoken of as God's people, but rather the system of the Old Covenant that they lived under. Gentiles did not live under that covenant system, but they were able to enter in by conversion, becoming proselytes. The same with the NHNE Covenant system....only those who are new creations in Christ called the New Jerusalem can abide in the NHNE, all others remain outside until they partake of the living waters of eternal life.

    Yes, I did read Tami's article on "The Heavens: Conscience or Cosmos?".


    for the good conversation.

    Rose
    Let's try some reverse highlighting...

    Heb.9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were[B] under the first testament , they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    One must be called to belong to this new covenant "system." Uncalled ones don't belong...hence, non-Christians are not in the NHNE.

    You said,
    "Nowhere do I see the heaven and earth spoken of as God's people, but rather the system of the Old Covenant that they lived under."
    How about looking at these verses...It takes a little effort to understand the context but to say that God is speaking to inanimate objects is reaching, if you ask me. Who are the recipients of what is being said? People or the inanimate objects?

    Deuteronomy 32:1 - Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

    Isaiah 1:2 - Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

    And here is one I just found that is really interesting:

    Act 4:24-27 - And they having heard, with one accord did lift up the voice unto God, and said, `Lord, thou art God, who didst make the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and all that are in them, 25 who, through the mouth of David thy servant, did say, Why did nations rage, and peoples meditate vain things? 26 the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ; 27 for gathered together of a truth against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, were both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with nations and peoples of Israel,

    If verse 24 is speaking of planet stuff, it sure seems way out of context for the next verses which speak of people stuff...

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    And here is one I just found that is really interesting:

    Act 4:24-27 - And they having heard, with one accord did lift up the voice unto God, and said, `Lord, thou art God, who didst make the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and all that are in them, 25 who, through the mouth of David thy servant, did say, Why did nations rage, and peoples meditate vain things? 26 the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ; 27 for gathered together of a truth against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, were both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with nations and peoples of Israel,

    If verse 24 is speaking of planet stuff, it sure seems way out of context for the next verses which speak of people stuff...

    Actually verse 24 does seem to be speaking in the context of the heaven and earth as being the place (system) people reside in.
    .
    Act 4:24 And they having heard, with one accord did lift up the voice unto God, and said, `Lord, thou art God, who didst make the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and all that are in them (life),
    Just like the literal heavens, and earth (sun, moon, planets, stars = solar systems, galaxies) all comprise a system that works together to make it possible for life to survive, so is the symbolic heaven and earth a system that works together according to God's laws.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Actually verse 24 does seem to be speaking in the context of the heaven and earth as being the place (system) people reside in.
    .
    Act 4:24 And they having heard, with one accord did lift up the voice unto God, and said, `Lord, thou art God, who didst make the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and all that are in them (life),
    Just like the literal heavens, and earth (sun, moon, planets, stars = solar systems, galaxies) all comprise a system that works together to make it possible for life to survive, so is the symbolic heaven and earth a system that works together according to God's laws.

    Rose
    I guess this is going to go on forever...

    The FIRST heaven and earth would appear to be a system, and I suppose it is. But it is was not a system for all of humanity. It was the old covenant economy with temple, priests, sacrifices, etc. It was very outward.

    The SECOND new covenant "system," if you will, is based entirely IN the believer. We are the priests, the temple resides within us, and our sacrifice is praise and a few other things - but it is ALL within the believer because they are now the new creation, the new heaven and earth. It is very inward.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    I guess this is going to go on forever...

    The FIRST heaven and earth would appear to be a system, and I suppose it is. But it is was not a system for all of humanity. It was the old covenant economy with temple, priests, sacrifices, etc. It was very outward.
    We agree, this calls for a celebration....

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    The SECOND new covenant "system," if you will, is based entirely IN the believer. We are the priests, the temple resides within us, and our sacrifice is praise and a few other things - but it is ALL within the believer because they are now the new creation, the new heaven and earth. It is very inward.
    Just as God created and ordered the physical systems of the heavens and earth….the sun, moon, planets, stars, solar systems, galaxies, ect….that all function together as a system to make the existence of life possible, so it is with the symbolic type of heaven and earth spoken of in the Bible. The Covenantal systems of the Old and New are spoken of in Scripture as the Old Heavens and Earth and the New Heavens and Earth, and like the physical heaven and earth operate as a system designed by God.


    This is the order of God’s Covenantal kingdom; beginning with the physical Jerusalem comprised of God’s chosen people the Jews, with a physical temple where God dwelt in their midst, that operated under the system of the Old Covenant. When Jesus brought in the New Covenant, the Old system ended and the New began, comprised of believers (New Jerusalem) that reside in the NHNE brought in by Christ.


    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 04-09-2010 at 07:23 AM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    We agree, this calls for a celebration....

    Just as God created and ordered the physical systems of the heavens and earth….the sun, moon, planets, stars, solar systems, galaxies, ect….that all function together as a system to make the existence of life possible, so it is with the symbolic type of heaven and earth spoken of in the Bible. The Covenantal systems of the Old and New are spoken of in Scripture as the Old Heavens and Earth and the New Heavens and Earth, and like the physical heaven and earth operate as a system designed by God.

    This is the order of God’s Covenantal kingdom; beginning with the physical Jerusalem comprised of God’s chosen people the Jews, with a physical temple where God dwelt in their midst, that operated under the system of the Old Covenant. When Jesus brought in the New Covenant, the Old system ended and the New began, comprised of believers (New Jerusalem) that reside in the NHNE brought in by Christ.


    Rose
    Hi Rose,

    Thanks for the celebration. I'm afraid it is going to be short-lived however...

    I wish I could understand why you can't see how the believers ARE the NHNE.

    With the physical outward old covenant system being representative of Israel after the flesh, how is it you don't see the new covenant system as Israel after the Spirit with the (temple, priest, and sacrifice - system) RESIDING IN THE BELIEVER IN CHRIST. It is that new creation which dwells in the New Jerusalem, not the other way around...just as the previous old heaven and earth dwelt in the old physical Jerusalem.

    And, as you know, I do not believe the first heaven and earth is material creation, especially since the new covenant in Christ has no more "sea" - a direct reference to Genesis chapter one...

    Let us not forget the the old heaven and earth as a type does not reflect back towards your material creation, but forward to the new covenant in Christ who fulfills all these types and shadows...

    Good discussions though...
    Last edited by Edward Goodie; 04-09-2010 at 07:53 AM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    Hi Rose,

    Thanks for the celebration. I'm afraid it is going to be short-lived however...

    I wish I could understand why you can't see how the believers ARE the NHNE.
    As I have said before, it doesn't make sense to me for believers to be both NHNE and New Jerusalem. Jesus brought in the New Covenant in which believers become new creations in Christ. We are not the New Covenant, but rather we were made new creations because of the New. The Church is the Bride of Christ, called the New Jerusalem; made new because of the death of the Testator Jesus Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    With the physical outward old covenant system being representative of Israel after the flesh, how is it you don't see the new covenant system as Israel after the Spirit with the (temple, priest, and sacrifice - system) RESIDING IN THE BELIEVER IN CHRIST. It is that new creation which dwells in the New Jerusalem, not the other way around...just as the previous old heaven and earth dwelt in the old physical Jerusalem.

    And, as you know, I do not believe the first heaven and earth is material creation, especially since the new covenant in Christ has no more "sea" - a direct reference to Genesis chapter one...
    God did create the physical heaven and earth that operates on a system, so it is no accident that He use the metaphor of heaven and earth to refer to the covenatal system. The term heaven and earth is pre-defined to mean the whole system of stars and planets that fill the universe.

    The Bible is full of types and shadows; just as the physical old Jerusalem contained the temple where God made His earthy abode....now the spiritual New Jerusalem (believers) is the temple where the Holy Spirit dwells.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    Let us not forget the the old heaven and earth as a type does not reflect back towards your material creation, but forward to the new covenant in Christ who fulfills all these types and shadows...

    Good discussions though...
    As Jerusalem (a specific body of people under a system) reflects back to the whole of mankind (sea of people) during pre-flood times that resided under the whole physical system of the heavens and earth, so does the Old covenantal system of the heaven and earth reflect back to the physical heavens and earth. Both the physical heavens and earth, and the physical sea of mankind were the type for the metaphors of God's chosen group of people and the covenantal system they lived under.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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