And I saw….

[Edward Goodie]

As I have said before, it doesn't make sense to me for believers to be both NHNE and New Jerusalem. Jesus brought in the New Covenant in which believers become new creations in Christ. We are not the New Covenant, but rather we were made new creations because of the New. The Church is the Bride of Christ, called the New Jerusalem; made new because of the death of the Testator Jesus Christ.

Hi Rose,

I am not equating believers with the New Jerusalem. I am saying that the new creations (ktisis - 2 Cor 5:17) DWELL in the New Jerusalem, in much the same way that the old creation people dwelt in physical Jerusalem. And I don't mean that they had to physically live there for that to be true. It is obvious that they didn't, but that is where the temple was...

What is this new creation if it is not the New Heaven and earth? Please try to address that specific question.

[Rose]

Hi Rose,

I am not equating believers with the New Jerusalem. I am saying that the new creations (ktisis - 2 Cor 5:17) DWELL in the New Jerusalem, in much the same way that the old creation people dwelt in physical Jerusalem. And I don't mean that they had to physically live there for that to be true. It is obvious that they didn't, but that is where the temple was...

What is this new creation if it is not the New Heaven and earth? Please try to address that specific question.

Hi TS,

I have been made a new creation in Christ, and as such I am part of the bride of Christ which is the New Jerusalem. The description of the NJ in Revelation tells us that the foundations and gates of this city are people....
.

Rev.21:12-14 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Rev.3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
.

....the city is the people and God, and the Lamb dwell in their midst. This is the perfect symbol of the Holy Spirit that dwells in believers.
.

Rev.21:22 And I saw no temple therein for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
.

As I said before, it makes no sense for believers to dwell in the NJ....because what are they dwelling in? On the other hand if the body of believers is the NJ, then we are the temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells. We as believers have been made temples in which God can dwell by the blood of Christ.
.

1Cor.6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The New Covenant system that was brought in by Christ is the NHNE which believers dwell in. Just as the Jews of the flesh, called the daughters of Jerusalem lived under the law of the Old Covenant (OHOE), so now the daughters of the NJ live in the NHNE. We are new creations, but we are not the NHNE....that is the New Covenantal system we live in.

Hope that was specific enough...

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Hi TS,

I have been made a new creation in Christ, and as such I am part of the bride of Christ which is the New Jerusalem. The description of the NJ in Revelation tells us that the foundations and gates of this city are people....
.

Rev.21:12-14 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Rev.3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
.

....the city is the people and God, and the Lamb dwell in their midst. This is the perfect symbol of the Holy Spirit that dwells in believers.
.

Rev.21:22 And I saw no temple therein for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
.

As I said before, it makes no sense for believers to dwell in the NJ....because what are they dwelling in? On the other hand if the body of believers is the NJ, then we are the temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells. We as believers have been made temples in which God can dwell by the blood of Christ.
.

1Cor.6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The New Covenant system that was brought in by Christ is the NHNE which believers dwell in. Just as the Jews of the flesh, called the daughters of Jerusalem lived under the law of the Old Covenant (OHOE), so now the daughters of the NJ live in the NHNE. We are new creations, but we are not the NHNE....that is the New Covenantal system we live in.

Hope that was specific enough...

Rose

I am beginning to think that the arguments are the same for the NHNE and the NJ...

[Rose]

I am beginning to think that the arguments are the same for the NHNE and the NJ...

Hi TS,


Just a quick follow up on our discussion of the NHNE. As can be clearly shown from Scripture that references to Jerusalem are symbolic peoples, so it can also be shown that references to the heaven and earth are places people dwell in (kingdoms) or dwell under (systems).

Doing a brief overview of Old and New Testament usage of heaven and earth, I will show key verses that present a clear understanding of the symbolic meaning of heaven and earth as a ruling system people dwell in. First we know that God’s dwelling place is on His Throne in heaven. God also dwelt on earth in the Holy of Holies, so it can be safely said that God dwells in heaven and on earth. The kingdom of heaven is the ruling system God uses to govern people just as a king on earth rules his kingdom.
.

2Chron.6:14 And said, O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that will walk before thee with all their hearts:….18) But God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!...33) Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as doth thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.

Ecc.5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

Psalm 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

Dan. 4:26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.


Ezr.1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.


Matt.3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matt.5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
.

The laws of the Old Covenant were called the “ordinances of heaven”, denoting a system of rule that governed those who were under it. The elements of the heaven and earth that the Apostle Peter said would be dissolved and burned up was stoicheion meaning the “principles of the law”…..so what he was saying was that the laws or ordinances of the old heaven and earth were going to be completely destroyed (physically manifest when the Temple was knocked down and burned up), with the New Heaven and Earth taking its place (aka. New Covenant, Kingdom of Heaven).
.

Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

Jer.33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;

Heb.9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances that were under the first testament, of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary….15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance….23) It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

2Pet.3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements (stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements (stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
.

As can be seen from a very few verses, a strong case can be made for identifying the Heavens and Earth as a ruling system, just as I previously identified Jerusalem as God’s chosen people.


Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Hi TS,


Just a quick follow up on our discussion of the NHNE. As can be clearly shown from Scripture that references to Jerusalem are symbolic peoples, so it can also be shown that references to the heaven and earth are places people dwell in (kingdoms) or dwell under (systems).

Doing a brief overview of Old and New Testament usage of heaven and earth, I will show key verses that present a clear understanding of the symbolic meaning of heaven and earth as a ruling system people dwell in. First we know that God’s dwelling place is on His Throne in heaven. God also dwelt on earth in the Holy of Holies, so it can be safely said that God dwells in heaven and on earth. The kingdom of heaven is the ruling system God uses to govern people just as a king on earth rules his kingdom.
.

2Chron.6:14 And said, O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that will walk before thee with all their hearts:….18) But God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!...33) Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as doth thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.

Ecc.5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

Psalm 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

Dan. 4:26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.


Ezr.1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.


Matt.3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matt.5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
.

The laws of the Old Covenant were called the 'ordinances of heaven', denoting a system of rule that governed those who were under it. The elements of the heaven and earth that the Apostle Peter said would be dissolved and burned up was stoicheion meaning the 'principles of the law'…..so what he was saying was that the laws or ordinances of the old heaven and earth were going to be completely destroyed (physically manifest when the Temple was knocked down and burned up), with the New Heaven and Earth taking its place (aka. New Covenant, Kingdom of Heaven).
.

Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

Jer.33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;

Heb.9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances that were under the first testament, of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary….15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance….23) It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

2Pet.3:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements (stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements (stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
.

As can be seen from a very few verses, a strong case can be made for identifying the Heavens and Earth as a ruling system, just as I previously identified Jerusalem as God’s chosen people.


Rose

I think you are being somewhat selective in your verse choices.

Can it be more plainly said that God dwells within us?

[Rose]

I think you are being somewhat selective in your verse choices.

Can it be more plainly said that God dwells within us?

I was hoping you would elaborate a bit more in your response, as I did with you.

I showed you how the old physical Jerusalem was identified with the Jews, and that God dwelt in their midst, and that was replaced by the New Jerusalem where God now dwells in the hearts of believers.

I also showed you how the old heavens and earth was the ruling system of ordinances, and laws of the Old Covenant....and how that was replaced by the NHNE which was the New Covenant brought in by Christ, so now the Kingdom of God that rules our hearts is within us....making us new creations in Christ. Just as we are not God even though He dwells in us, we are not the Kingdom of God even though it is within us.

We are the new creations (NJ) in which God dwells, writing the laws of the New Covenant (NHNE) in our hearts and minds, but we are not those laws!
.

Heb.10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

I was hoping you would elaborate a bit more in your response, as I did with you.

I showed you how the old physical Jerusalem was identified with the Jews, and that God dwelt in their midst, and that was replaced by the New Jerusalem where God now dwells in the hearts of believers.

I also showed you how the old heavens and earth was the ruling system of ordinances, and laws of the Old Covenant....and how that was replaced by the NHNE which was the New Covenant brought in by Christ, so now the Kingdom of God that rules our hearts is within us....making us new creations in Christ. Just as we are not God even though He dwells in us, we are not the Kingdom of God even though it is within us.

We are the new creations (NJ) in which God dwells, writing the laws of the New Covenant (NHNE) in our hearts and minds, but we are not those laws!
.

Heb.10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Rose

Rose, we are going around in circles now...I too have demonstrated...

I equate the new (created) heaven and earth with the new (created) believer. The NJ is not created. It is the anti-type of the previous Jerusalem. The old heaven and earth was external. Th NHNE is internal in the believer - the priesthood of the believer, God indwelling the believer, the believer's sacrifices of praise, service, etc.

old covenant = law = old Jerusalem
new covenant = grace = new Jerusalem

old heaven and earth = old covenant PEOPLE
new heaven and earth = new covenant PEOPLE

So, you see, I look at it opposite from you. God dwells in us - people, not in a covenant. The covenant is the "vehicle" to obtain the "dwelling" presence...

And in regard to the following Scripture you quoted:

Heb.10:16 - This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Please understand that God is not making them INTO new covenants, but is making a new covenant WITH them...

You said,

"the old heavens and earth was the ruling system of ordinances, and laws of the Old Covenant"

And I can just as easily say, the old Jerusalem was the ruling system of ordinances, and laws of the Old Covenant...

Covenants are not people. You may have the last word. I can't think of anything else to add to the discussion.

[Rose]

Rose, we are going around in circles now...I too have demonstrated...

I equate the new (created) heaven and earth with the new (created) believer. The NJ is not created. It is the anti-type of the previous Jerusalem. The old heaven and earth was external. Th NHNE is internal in the believer - the priesthood of the believer, God indwelling the believer, the believer's sacrifices of praise, service, etc.

old covenant = law = old Jerusalem
new covenant = grace = new Jerusalem

old heaven and earth = old covenant PEOPLE
new heaven and earth = new covenant PEOPLE

So, you see, I look at it opposite from you. God dwells in us - people, not in a covenant. The covenant is the "vehicle" to obtain the "dwelling" presence...

And in regard to the following Scripture you quoted:

Heb.10:16 - This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Please understand that God is not making THEM into new covenants, but is making a new covenant WITH them...

You said,

And I can just as easily say, the old Jerusalem was the ruling system of ordinances, and laws of the Old Covenant...

Covenants are not people. You may have the last word. I can't think of anything else to add to the discussion.

Hi TS,

My point is not to have the last word, but to understand your position fully....which I still do not!

old heaven and earth = old covenant PEOPLE How can the old heaven and earth be the old covenant PEOPLE when Peter said the elements stoicheion of the OHOE were going to be dissolved. The old Law was dissolved, not the people.


new heaven and earth = new covenant PEOPLE If the NHNE is the New Covenant brought in by Christ, written on the hearts of believers, making them a new creation....how can it also be the believer himself. When something is written on our hearts and we are changed because of it, we are not that which changed us. Christ brought in the NHNE covenant system to replace the old, we do not change and become that system, but rather are made new creations because of it. This is the main point that I do not understand in the way you present the NHNE as being the NC PEOPLE. I understand that the NC people live in the NHNE as the New Jerusalem because Jesus said the NJ was His Bride. We cannot be both the Bride and the New Kingdom the Bride lives in.


I hope you can answer those points specifically....

Rose

[Edward Goodie]

Hi TS,

My point is not to have the last word, but to understand your position fully....which I still do not!

old heaven and earth = old covenant PEOPLE How can the old heaven and earth be the old covenant PEOPLE when Peter said the elements stoicheion of the OHOE were going to be dissolved. The old Law was dissolved, not the people.

Just off the top of my head. There is a dualism going on here. Both aspects were dissolved! 1) The Law was fulfilled. It was written upon our hearts. Melting is often used in regard to judgment. Do a study on the word "melt," "melts," "melting," etc. The apostate Jews were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands. What remained were sold into slavery. 2) The "elements" were clearly references to the teaching or principles of the law. These principles or teachings would no longer be taught after 70 AD with God's blessings.

new heaven and earth = new covenant PEOPLE If the NHNE is the New Covenant brought in by Christ, written on the hearts of believers, making them a new creation....

But I do not believe the NHNE IS the new covenant...the new covenant is the vehicle by which the NHNE is made. There is a distinct difference. Every time an individual "believes unto salvation" a new creation is born. Is it another NJ that is born? Is it the another NHNE that is born? As I said before the NJ is not created. The NHNE are clearly used with creation language. Believers are the new "creation" (ktisis) in Christ. This connection is pretty powerful in my estimation.

It all depends how we INITIALLY look at the old heavens and earth. You see it as a system and a type of physical creation. I don't see physical creation at all, but rather the establishment of the old heaven and earth people and the sea (non-heaven and earth people). Can you see how the sea is apart from the heaven and earth? In Revelation, in the NHNE there is NO MORE SEA! To me, covenant creation (Genesis) is consistent with the covenant fulfillment (Revelation). This is probably the difference in our reasoning...Wouldn't "hearts and minds" be VERY indicative of conscience?

How can it also be the believer himself. When something is written on our hearts and we are changed because of it, we are not that which changed us.

I am glad you mentioned this. I personally believe this is the change of 1 Cor 15:51. And when you said "we are changed BECAUSE of it," it tells me that it was just the "vehicle" to accomplish that change.

Christ brought in the NHNE covenant system to replace the old, we do not change and become that system, but rather are made new creations because of it. This is the main point that I do not understand in the way you present the NHNE as being the NC PEOPLE. I understand that the NC people live in the NHNE as the New Jerusalem because Jesus said the NJ was His Bride. We cannot be both the Bride and the New Kingdom the Bride lives in.

Can we examine the bride passages in more detail? I know what you are saying and stood exactly (aside from the Universalist application) where you stand less than a year ago. Don't take this personally, but perhaps your Universalism of mandating that all eventually come under the NHNE is governing your definition...just as much as covenant creation (CC) is running mine. The new covenant must be accepted before one can BE (mine)/ENTER (yours) the NHNE...you believe personal death is not a barrier for this to occur, and you know I disagree.

[Rose]

Just off the top of my head. There is a dualism going on here. Both aspects were dissolved! 1) The Law was fulfilled. It was written upon our hearts. Melting is often used in regard to judgment. Do a study on the word "melt," "melts," "melting," etc. The apostate Jews were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands. What remained were sold into slavery. 2) The "elements" were clearly references to the teaching or principles of the law. These principles or teachings would no longer be taught after 70 AD with God's blessings.

Its gets much to tedious for me to start dissecting words in that way. It's so much clearer to interpret the destruction of the physical city of Jerusalem as equivalent to the million or more Jews (people) that were slaughtered because they did not received their Messiah....and the destruction of the Temple which contained the Ark of the Covenant in which the Law was kept, as equivalent to the dissolving of the elements (principles of the Law) in the old heaven and earth.

But I do not believe the NHNE IS the new covenant...the new covenant is the vehicle by which the NHNE is made. There is a distinct difference. Every time an individual "believes unto salvation" a new creation is born. Is it another NJ that is born? Is it the another NHNE that is born? As I said before the NJ is not created. The NHNE are clearly used with creation language. Believers are the new "creation" (ktisis) in Christ. This connection is pretty powerful in my estimation.


It all depends how we INITIALLY look at the old heavens and earth. You see it as a system and a type of physical creation. I don't see physical creation at all, but rather the establishment of the old heaven and earth people and the sea (non-heaven and earth people). Can you see how the sea is apart from the heaven and earth? In Revelation, in the NHNE there is NO MORE SEA! To me, covenant creation (Genesis) is consistent with the covenant fulfillment (Revelation). This is probably the difference in our reasoning...Wouldn't "hearts and minds" be VERY indicative of conscience?

Just as God created the physical stars, and planets to function as part of the heaven and earth system, He also created man and established ordinances as part of a system for him to function under. All things are created by God, thus all are part of creation language.

Can we examine the bride passages in more detail? I know what you are saying and stood exactly (aside from the Universalist application) where you stand less than a year ago. Don't take this personally, but perhaps your Universalism of mandating that all eventually come under the NHNE is governing your definition...just as much as covenant creation (CC) is running mine. The new covenant must be accepted before one can BE (mine)/ENTER (yours) the NHNE...you believe personal death is not a barrier for this to occur, and you know I disagree.

I would love to examine the bride passages in more detail. As for my Universalist belief, it has nothing to do with my understanding of the Bride of Christ (Believers) being the New Jerusalem.

Thank you for your explanations.... though it stills seems very awkward.


Rose