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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    ok Truthseeker,

    To be fair to you and to be fair to me, I answer one question of yours, you answer one question of mine.

    God gave Joseph the dream that his parents and brothers will one day bow down to him. Based on Jewish culture, the elders are not supposed to bow to the younger. The sun based on Jewish culture represents the father, moon the mother and the stars, the children.

    Now it is your turn to answer mine:
    Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means?

    Many Blessings.
    Hi Cheow

    I know you didn't ask me, but I would love to give you my interpretation of Rev. 12:1.

    The woman is representative of Israel being clothed in the power of God, and the crown of 12 stars are symbolic of the 12 Tribes of Israel. The moon under her feet would be Gentile peoples, whereas God being the sun holding Israel as His chosen people with the Gentile nations taking their place under the feet of His elect.

    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 03-27-2010 at 05:03 PM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

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  2. #22
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    Hi Rose and the rest,

    Please do not answer on Truthseeker's behalf as he has to be fair to me as I have answered his question, he have to answer mine. My question is :
    If the sun represents the father(Jacob), the moon represents the mother(Leah) and the 12 stars represent the 12 sons of Jacob how do you interpret this verse in Revelation 12:1," a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head."?

    Many Blessings.

  3. #23
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    Hi Joe, please note my answer in red.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    And you are entitled to yours my friend. But do please consider that others will base their decisions on our opinions when we are more clear and sound in our judgments. I've presented simple logic without trying to bombard you with one verse after another. I explained to you that the theories you're proposing with Revelation do not match. You state that Revelation is about God's judgment upon the entire world, yet you failed to analyze the important detail of the 144,000 sealed. I showed you that the entire world cannot be both beast and Harlot, and yet you still have not identified either.
    Neither is your logic clear, is there any record, historical or traditional that there were 144,000 Jews sealed in the AD 70?

    In all this, what opinion do you have because it's unclear exactly what your stance is. I know you hold to the futurist position, but you offer no details that hold together; they contradict themselves in that your idea of a Beast doesn't fit with the rest of Revelation. Who is Gog and Magog? Who is the Harlot that rides the Beast? Who is the Beast? Who are the 144,000 sealed, as opposed to those who were NOT sealed?
    There is no need to answer about the Beast, the Harlot as it has already been answered in some of my posts and threads. and even if I answered, you will reject it because you will never believe in anything future.


    Now take a very careful look at the picture you've presented about the great flood. God destroyed sin in the world with water. How did He destroy sin in the world in the first century? By His Blood on the cross. Jesus dying on the cross is a fulfillment of what the great flood represented. Additionally, the waters were used to purify the earth; His blood does this.
    When God destroyed the sin (of the evil people) of the world with the great Flood, was He kind and forgiving or was He cruel?...One must differentiate between kind and soft. I believe God is kind but not soft. Sometimes, it's good to be "cruel" in order to be kind. We don't expect a judge to say to a criminal, "Please don't rob the bank and kill the cashiers again in future ok? Thank you. I will let you go this time". This is obviously too kind and too soft, will it have any impact on the criminal? Where is the justice?

    Lastly, the fiery trials that the first century endured was a cleansing period, as well as a refinement. Like black coal, they were being transformed into diamonds, in order to build the New Jerusalem. Why can't you understand these things? Do you not believe?
    There will also be fiery trial in the future to punish those who do not glorify God and are unrepentent of the evil wicked ways. Do you think God will allow sin and wickedness to continue indefinitely. If so, why destroyed the sin of the world with a great Flood in the first place? Why destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in AD 70? Why waste time judging the good and the wicked in the GWT? Why can't you understand these things?


    This is the same problem that first century Jews had; they taught of a God that sits on a mighty throne and seeks judgment. They wanted God to come to them, and destroy all the nations around them so that they (First century Jews) could become the glorious Empire that existed during the days of Joshua, Solomon, and David. They did not realize that Christ was trying to reconcile the world to Himself. How do you do this? With love and grace; not wrath and destruction.
    Please answer these questions, Can wrath and destruction comes with love and grace? Can one be cruel in order to be kind?....or do we spare the rod and spoil the child? Proverbs said it well,

    Proverbs 13:24
    He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.


    Your eschatology is dangerous because it teaches the exact opposite of what the New Testament is all about; love, hope, faith, and grace. We are to be lights of love, and not teachers of vengeance.
    Your eschatology is equally dangerous, Be too kind and be too soft-hearted....spare the rod..... The Bible is not only full of love, hope, faith and grace but also full of violence, vengence, wrath. Why?

    Yes God will punish sinners. But what you're suggesting is a complete destruction of the world, which has absolutely NO scriptural support; absolutely none. So how can you support and believe something that isn't even written?
    Same as I would say, why symbolize something when there is no scriptural support to do so? How can one symbolize 1,000 year reign to mean 40 years to AD 70? Why symbolize "the sun will not give its light, the moon will become dark...." with no strong scriptural support?


    As stated, this is a very dangerous copy-cat of the first century Jews. IT IS NOT about good vs evil. It's about the victory of Christ who established His Kingdom, and spread the gospel of love throughout the entire world. What is love? Love is doing nothing wrong even to those who harm you. Thus, since Christianity is about love and tolerance, how much more the God of Love? But what you are suggesting is a God of wrath, total annihilation, and destructive fear.
    You contradicted yourself with the following words below, " God's wrath was completed in 70AD upon those who pierced His only begotten Son, and persecuted the Saints whom He chose to preach the gospels." Is God is love or is God
    is wrath? The Bible is full of love and also full of wrath,it is also a record full of good deeds and full of bad deeds. It is a book to teach people what is good and what is bad and the obvious result is that Good will Triumph over Evil. And of course the Bible especially the NT is about the spread of the gospel of the love of God throughout the world, with the love of God being victorious over the world of evil.


    Finally, God's wrath was completed in 70AD upon those who pierced His only begotten Son, and persecuted the Saints whom He chose to preach the gospels.


    He has not forsaken us. He's with us every day. But your faith does not permit you to see this my friend; honestly, it doesn't. If you had faith as strong as a simple mustard seed, you would know and understand that everything you see happening around your very life is on the basis of His rule, whether it be blessings to your life, or punishment. You should not need to see Him ruling the earth, in order to know that He does rule the earth. If someone were to point a gun at you, and kill you, it is God who permitted it to happen. If that person fails to kill you, it is because God permitted it to happen; He protected you.
    I do not totally agree with you here. Sometimes God uses "adverse" events to mold one's character. One's bad luck does not necessary mean God has forsaken you. He is love and want to mold you to the right way. What do think of priests charged for molesting children? Perhaps it's God's way of telling the priests that this is wrong and needs to be punished and the chidren, do not trust people even the priests as people are easily tempted to evil; trust God.

    Jesus explains how the birds of the air are clothed and fed on a daily basis by God. "How much more important are we? O ye men of little faith. Are ye not more important than they?"
    Totally agree with you here

    Since we are important to God, I know that we are not forsaken. You do not need to ask Him to come down to you from heaven; this is the word of faith that Paul preached; He is in our hearts when we confess His name. Those who do not know Him (joined) cannot confess His name, and are not even interested. That is why they walk around blindly.
    Totally agree with you here


    Keep the faith. But also understand the faith that you may understand my friend. Faith is not in what is seen, but was is unseen.
    Totally agree with you here


    Joe

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    ok Truthseeker,

    To be fair to you and to be fair to me, I answer one question of yours, you answer one question of mine.

    God gave Joseph the dream that his parents and brothers will one day bow down to him. Based on Jewish culture, the elders are not supposed to bow to the younger. The sun based on Jewish culture represents the father, moon the mother and the stars, the children.

    Now it is your turn to answer mine:
    Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means?

    Many Blessings.
    Never mind. I have tried three times now and not yet have you ever explained to me HOW JACOB KNEW. The answer must come from the perspective of JACOB's understanding. You have given me God's perspective, Joseph's perspective and Scripture's perspective. I only want JACOB'S perspective. How did HE understand what those "cosmic objects" stood for. You fail to even understand the question...

    I would be interested in your Jewish cultural sources that you used to come to this conclusion. It is right, but that doesn't explain how Jacob knew.
    Last edited by Edward Goodie; 03-27-2010 at 09:37 PM.

  5. #25
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    ok Truthseeker,

    I do not know how Jacob knew what the moon, sun and stars stand for. I believe was God inspired and he knew from his Jewish tradition. In fact, I do not understand what you really want from your question. Now I have answered your question, be fair to me, answer mine:

    Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means?

    Many Blessings.

  6. #26
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    Neither is your logic clear, is there any record, historical or traditional that there were 144,000 Jews sealed in the AD 70?
    You missed my point. The 144,000 was not a literal number to be taken. It (in my opinion) was to show the impartiality between the different Tribes. But note that the 12 Tribes mentioned in Revelation no longer exist. So how could their be a future Tribe spared? Do you not remember how the Lord warned the Jews who believed in Him, and how they should run from when they saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem? Did this not happen? Is this not a historical account for you to accept?

    There is no need to answer about the Beast, the Harlot as it has already been answered in some of my posts and threads. and even if I answered, you will reject it because you will never believe in anything future.
    Well I sure do not remember you answering, although I remember you mentioning a few things. But to date, I still have not definitive understanding of your exact position. The Harlot is Apostate Israel, the Beast is Rome. Since neither exist anymore, it cannot be future. If you believe that the identity is a future nation or empire, then you are left to explain how the 144,000 thousand composing the 12 Tribes can exist in the future, for them to be spared. FACTS are important because it leaves no shred of doubt. It is a fact that the 12 Tribes no longer exist as there are no birth records of who was born from where in modern day Israel. You stated in another post that as long as they had even mixed blood, then they are still Jewish. But that is totally wrong.

    Genesis 49:

    1 And Jacob called his sons and said, 'Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:


    2 ' Gather together and hear, you sons of Jacob,
    And listen to Israel your father.

    3 ' Reuben, you are my firstborn,
    My might and the beginning of my strength,
    The excellency of dignity and the excellency of power.

    4 Unstable as water, you shall not excel,
    Because you went up to your fatherís bed;
    Then you defiled itó
    He went up to my couch.

    5 ' Simeon and Levi are brothers;
    Instruments of cruelty are in their dwelling place.

    6 Let not my soul enter their council;
    Let not my honor be united to their assembly;
    For in their anger they slew a man,
    And in their self-will they hamstrung an ox.

    7 Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
    And their wrath, for it is cruel!
    I will divide them in Jacob
    And scatter them in Israel.

    8 ' Judah, you are he whom your brothers shall praise;
    Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies;
    Your fatherís children shall bow down before you.

    9 Judah is a lionís whelp;
    From the prey, my son, you have gone up.
    He bows down, he lies down as a lion;
    And as a lion, who shall rouse him?

    10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
    Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
    Until Shiloh comes;
    And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

    11 Binding his donkey to the vine,
    And his donkeyís colt to the choice vine,
    He washed his garments in wine,
    And his clothes in the blood of grapes.

    12 His eyes are darker than wine,
    And his teeth whiter than milk.

    13 ' Zebulun shall dwell by the haven of the sea;
    He shall become a haven for ships,
    And his border shall adjoin Sidon.

    14 ' Issachar is a strong donkey,
    Lying down between two burdens;

    15 He saw that rest was good,
    And that the land was pleasant;
    He bowed his shoulder to bear a burden,
    And became a band of slaves.

    16 'Dan shall judge his people
    As one of the tribes of Israel.

    17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way,
    A viper by the path,
    That bites the horseís heels
    So that its rider shall fall backward.

    18 I have waited for your salvation, O LORD!

    19 'Gad, a troop shall tramp upon him,
    But he shall triumph at last.

    20 'Bread from Asher shall be rich,
    And he shall yield royal dainties.

    21 ' Naphtali is a deer let loose;
    He uses beautiful words.

    22 ' Joseph is a fruitful bough,
    A fruitful bough by a well;
    His branches run over the wall.

    23 The archers have bitterly grieved him,
    Shot at him and hated him.

    24 But his bow remained in strength,
    And the arms of his hands were made strong
    By the hands of the Mighty God of Jacob
    (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

    25 By the God of your father who will help you,
    And by the Almighty who will bless you
    With blessings of heaven above,
    Blessings of the deep that lies beneath,
    Blessings of the breasts and of the womb.

    26 The blessings of your father
    Have excelled the blessings of my ancestors,
    Up to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills.
    They shall be on the head of Joseph,
    And on the crown of the head of him who was separate from his brothers.

    27 ' Benjamin is a ravenous wolf;
    In the morning he shall devour the prey,
    And at night he shall divide the spoil.'

    28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father spoke to them. And he blessed them; he blessed each one according to his own blessing.


    Can any one claiming he/she is a Jew today recognize and prove which Tribe they are from?

    FACTS remove all shadow of doubt, and cannot be disputed. Yes I know a factual man can be another form of sin, but that's only true if the facts are wrong. Are there any Jews today that are based from the Tribes? If not (which is a fact I might add, for there are not), then neither can there be a future 144,000 sealed. This mandates a first century fulfillment; a fact you reject because it contradicts the Futurist paradigms you cling to.

    When God destroyed the sin (of the evil people) of the world with the great Flood, was He kind and forgiving or was He cruel?...One must differentiate between kind and soft. I believe God is kind but not soft. Sometimes, it's good to be "cruel" in order to be kind. We don't expect a judge to say to a criminal, "Please don't rob the bank and kill the cashiers again in future ok? Thank you. I will let you go this time". This is obviously too kind and too soft, will it have any impact on the criminal? Where is the justice?
    Yea? Remember Mary and how the Law demanded that she be stoned to death? What was Christ's response? "Who is there to condemn you Mary; neither do I condemn you. Go your way and sin no more...." Grace is what changed her, not wrath. God's wrath is not towards sinner, but towards sinners who persecute His Saints. History proves that this has always been the case.

    There will also be fiery trial in the future to punish those who do not glorify God and are unrepentent of the evil wicked ways. Do you think God will allow sin and wickedness to continue indefinitely. If so, why destroyed the sin of the world with a great Flood in the first place? Why destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in AD 70? Why waste time judging the good and the wicked in the GWT? Why can't you understand these things?
    That answer is found in Revelation. Those on the outside of the gates remain outside. Only by accepting the free invitation to partake of the free gift of life, through the Blood of Christ and His Spirit, can one enter into the gates. The Bible mentions absolutely nothing about sinners being removed from the earth.

    Please answer these questions, Can wrath and destruction comes with love and grace? Can one be cruel in order to be kind?....or do we spare the rod and spoil the child? Proverbs said it well,

    Proverbs 13:24
    He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
    Be careful. This proverb is about raising legitimate children. Those outside of God are not legitimate children, and are not being fashions (disciplined).

    Hebrews 12:

    3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


    ' My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
    Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
    6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
    And scourges every son whom He receives.'

    7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.


    Sinners outside of God are not judged until they meet their deaths. And children who are being chastened are considered legitimate children of God.

    Your eschatology is equally dangerous, Be too kind and be too soft-hearted....spare the rod..... The Bible is not only full of love, hope, faith and grace but also full of violence, vengence, wrath. Why?
    Why? Because it teaches tolerance? Should Christ have used the Rod on Mary? Of course not! Now had Mary continued on in sin, THEN the Rod (Figurative expression I might add) is used to discipline her. YOU on the other hand believe that God chastens all men of flesh even though they are not part of His family. What you propose is a first century Jewish sin of revenge. They wanted a God who would destroy the Romans and set them (Jews) high above all the nations, so that they could continue doing what they were doing without fear of the nations. In short, THEY wanted to be in control. Do you go around spanking other people's children? Of course not because it is considered illegal. But why not spank other mens children? Because they are not your children; you deal and discipline those you own and have betrothed. The same with God. All creatures are His, but He knows who belongs to Him, and who does not. Those who do not belong to Him will receive their judgment upon death.

    Same as I would say, why symbolize something when there is no scriptural support to do so? How can one symbolize 1,000 year reign to mean 40 years to AD 70? Why symbolize "the sun will not give its light, the moon will become dark...." with no strong scriptural support?
    "For the Day of the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a [single] day...." Using your own rules of literal interpretation, can't the "1000 years" also be "a day"? This is your rules now. So follow it.

    This is a lot I've answered, and I appreciate your responses.

    God be with you on your quest.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  7. #27
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    Hi Joe,

    Just to make things short. I suspect the Harlot to be Rome and the Beast to be EU.

    Even if the 12 tribes is not in existence to day, does not mean God cannot re-assemble all the Jews or mixed Jews again to the 12 tribes of Israel? Is this an impossibility for God? Funny the land of Israel is still divided with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel today. Is it because there is a possibility that the land of Israel will be inherited again by the 12 tribes of Israel? Or... Have you forgotten that God had promised that the land of Israel belongs to the 12 tribes of Israel forever?

    Yes, Christ have forgiven Mary but the Christ who comes with the rod on a white horse in Revelation 19 also out to destroy the evil people who worship the Beast mercilessly:

    11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
    17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

    19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.


    Why must the 1,000 year reign be the 40 years to AD 70, why not 10 years, 590 years 100 years, 200 years etc, why 40 years?

    Joe:"For the Day of the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a [single] day...." Using your own rules of literal interpretation, can't the "1000 years" also be "a day"? This is your rules now.
    Read 2 Peter 3 again carefully and don't change the words, its "a day is like a thousand years" and not "the day of the Lord is as a thousand years":
    8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    A thousand years is a thousand years even a thousand years is a day is a day; why 40 years? So follow it.

    Many Blessings.

  8. #28
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    Hi Joe,

    Just to make things short. I suspect the Harlot to be Rome and the Beast to be EU.
    That won't work my friend. The EU is not organized or powerful enough to plan such a world-wide campaign. Furthermore, Rome cannot be the Harlot because the Lord was not crucified in Rome:

    Revelation 11:8
    And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


    Therefore, to suggest to everyone that the Harlot is Rome does not fit with scripture. Additionally, The Harlot is burned to death by the Beast. So are you suggesting that Rome will be destroyed by the EU? As proven by scripture, the Harlot (which means someone who committed adultery against God by selling herself to a foreigner outside of God's relationship) represents the adulterous city, figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, is where the Lord was crucified. Literally, and historically, the Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.

    Are you now ready to believe? If not, at least believe scripture, for it shows that you are incorrect my loving friend.

    Even if the 12 tribes is not in existence to day, does not mean God cannot re-assemble all the Jews or mixed Jews again to the 12 tribes of Israel? Is this an impossibility for God? Funny the land of Israel is still divided with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel today. Is it because there is a possibility that the land of Israel will be inherited again by the 12 tribes of Israel? Or... Have you forgotten that God had promised that the land of Israel belongs to the 12 tribes of Israel forever?
    Here we go again. Brother Cheow, God can do anything He wants. He can turn rocks into bread; stones into water; houses into space craft. He's God and He can do anything. But does scripture say that He will once again regather the Tribes in Israel? Does it also say that after regathering them, that He will send a harsh judgment upon them by permitting them to be tortured again? If so, where is this written? Since you believe that the Harlot is Rome, and the EU is the Beast, what does this have to do with the 12 Tribes? According to Revelation, the 12 Tribes were sealed from suffering this onslaught by the Beast; those in Israel that are not sealed would end up dying at the hands of this terrible Beast.

    I'm sorry my friend but your ideas severely contradict the entire book of Revelation. You've got to do much better than this if you ever want to convince outsiders (forgetting about Preterist) that your eschatology holds water.

    Was the Lord crucified in Rome? No.
    Will Rome burn itself? No.
    Can the EU attack Rome? No because Rome doesn't exist...unless of course you mean the Roman Catholic Church; that would be a 7th Day Adventist teaching.

    I'm afraid your ideas are garbled my friend, and that without scriptural support.

    Yes, Christ have forgiven Mary but the Christ who comes with the rod on a white horse in Revelation 19 also out to destroy the evil people who worship the Beast mercilessly:
    This is very fascinating my friend. But are you suggesting that a world that is dominated by economics will somehow succumb to a lowly agency called the EU? Bro, this is all mere fantasy. Where the scripture to support this? What as the EU to do with where the Lord was crucified? How is the Harlot (ROME) where the Lord was crucified, and how are they also reckoned as Sodom and Egypt?

    11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
    17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

    19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
    So will Christ literally descend from the sky with a literal sword from His mouth? Will He literally be riding a white horse? Doesn't this contradict Acts chapter 1 that states His return will be as He left. Was Christ riding a horse when He departed? Will the EU and Rome fight against a literal Messiah riding a white horse with a sword sticking out of His mouth?

    What then do the passages above speak of? God's judgment upon the nation that destroyed the Harlot. It also speaks of the invitation to the marriage supper of the lamb. Are you suggesting that the marriage has not yet happened? Do you not recall that the Lord told the Apostles that the people of His generation would suffer wrath and fall by the sword, and how He also stated that one would be taken, and the other left? The Apostles then asked, "Where Lord". His reply was, "where ever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." What does this mean, and how does this connect with verses 17-18? Let's compare:

    Matthew 24:28
    For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

    Luke 17:37
    And they answered and said to Him, 'Where, Lord?' So He said to them, 'Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.'

    17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."


    See the connection? Now can this be future? Nope, it cannot. Because according to Luke, this was a first century generation fulfillment:

    Luke 21:

    20 'But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


    The times of the Gentiles involved the final 7 years of its existence. When the war began, all heck broke lose, and Israel became a haunting place; a place of despair; a tomb stone filled with dead bodies. Daniel's city, temple, and people came to its end, like a large Mill-Stone thrown into the sea, never to be found again. The voice of the Bride and Bride Groom shall never be found in you again.

    Revelation 18:23

    23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.


    Thus, as you can see, the Israel you expect to be built with the waive of God's magic wand is not written in scripture. IN FACT, Revelation 18:23 testifies against the eschatology you propose.

    Why must the 1,000 year reign be the 40 years to AD 70, why not 10 years, 590 years 100 years, 200 years etc, why 40 years?
    I'll let you ponder over that one. I merely stated that the 1000 years could be just a simple day to us. But you choose to make this a literal 1000 years, when not even the Greek word agrees with you. The Text reads, "Chillias", and not "Chillia". This means that the Greek word is plural, indicating an undetermined amount of time. However, as stated, following your own rules, the 1000 years could also be "A Day". For the "DAY OF THE LORD", that is, "The 1000 years of the Lord" shall come like a thief in the night.

    I'm just trying to set you free from the daily tabloids my friend. But only you can make that first step. If you want to remain in the confused state as a Futurist, that is your choice. But keep in mind that I, and many such as myself, were once Futurist's. So what they teach is nothing knew; well perhaps the data itself has changed within the past 20 years or so. But this EU thing, Rome Thing, and Micro-Chip is all man-made jargon that has no place in the Church; it is all mere fiction and based on a false eschatology that has a very long history of being wrong. Why make more history confirming this point?

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    ok Truthseeker,

    I do not know how Jacob knew what the moon, sun and stars stand for. I believe was God inspired and he knew from his Jewish tradition. In fact, I do not understand what you really want from your question. Now I have answered your question, be fair to me, answer mine:

    Revelation 12:1, " a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and with a crownlike garland (tiara) of twelve stars on her head." What do you think it means?

    Many Blessings.
    Your second sentence didn't make any sense so I didn't know what you were trying to say. All I know is that Jacob did know what the sun, moon and stars stood for. How? I don't know. The point is this: His understanding is WAYYYYYYY different than those who approach Scripture looking for literal fulfillments. To most, the sun, moon and stars represent (and are) those things way up in the sky. Jacob didn't think so. He recognized them to be the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel, (the authority and leadership). You will find that when THESE SUN, MOON AND STARS are expressed as being bright, the nation of Israel fares well, they are victorious and prosperous. But make thoise things dark and Israel is headed for bad times, even judgment.

    Such is the case with many passages in the NT including Isaiah 30:26, the one I tried to get you to understand about binding and healing. Bright cosmic objects (as literal cosmic entities don't have a thing to do with binding up the breaches, or healing the sin of the people...

    It is the same type of thing going on in Matthew 24:29 and other passages in Revelation like Rev 6:13. The Hebrew idioms haven't changed one bit. But when one approaches the Scripture from that 21st century Western cultural scientific perspective, then all Hebrew language metaphors, figures, symbols and idioms are tossed out the window...

    As for your question, I don't know much about Revelation. I need to know so much more about the OT, but I will venture a guess.

    The woman is Israel [because she is the one who gives birth to the child (Messiah)] and because of the sun, moon and stars symbolisms...

  10. #30
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    Hi Joe, Please se my reply in red:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    That won't work my friend. The EU is not organized or powerful enough to plan such a world-wide campaign. Furthermore, Rome cannot be the Harlot because the Lord was not crucified in Rome:
    It will be very powerful in the future. Yes the Lord was not crucified in Rome but Rome/Romans killed many apostles and Christians including Jesus and yet it seemed to go unpunished in AD 70.How can the Beast who was supposed to be destroyed in AD 70 be Rome then?

    Revelation 11:8
    And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    Agree that city is Jerusalem but who were the 2 bodies? Any idea?

    Therefore, to suggest to everyone that the Harlot is Rome does not fit with scripture. Additionally, The Harlot is burned to death by the Beast. So are you suggesting that Rome will be destroyed by the EU? As proven by scripture, the Harlot (which means someone who committed adultery against God by selling herself to a foreigner outside of God's relationship) represents the adulterous city, figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, is where the Lord was crucified. Literally, and historically, the Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.
    The Harot is a city in which the Anti-christ dwells in which nations have traded with her and profited from the trade. They co-operated with the antichrist and were rewarded for their co-operations (committed adultery).

    Are you now ready to believe? If not, at least believe scripture, for it shows that you are incorrect my loving friend.



    Here we go again. Brother Cheow, God can do anything He wants. He can turn rocks into bread; stones into water; houses into space craft. He's God and He can do anything. But does scripture say that He will once again regather the Tribes in Israel? Does it also say that after regathering them, that He will send a harsh judgment upon them by permitting them to be tortured again? If so, where is this written? Since you believe that the Harlot is Rome, and the EU is the Beast, what does this have to do with the 12 Tribes? According to Revelation, the 12 Tribes were sealed from suffering this onslaught by the Beast; those in Israel that are not sealed would end up dying at the hands of this terrible Beast.
    God could easily identified and sealed the 144,000 Jews before the destruction of the earth. Is there anything impossible for God. Jesus will sit on the throne ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel. If the 12 tribes of Israel are no more as you said then whence come the 12 tribes of Israel? Therefore, God must have gathered them gathered them together during the GWT when He judged all mankind who have died since the creation of the earth and would be able to gather who belonged to the 12 tribes of Israel.

    I'm sorry my friend but your ideas severely contradict the entire book of Revelation. You've got to do much better than this if you ever want to convince outsiders (forgetting about Preterist) that your eschatology holds water. I wonder if Preterism can convince outsiders also?

    Was the Lord crucified in Rome? No.
    Will Rome burn itself? No.
    Can the EU attack Rome? No because Rome doesn't exist...unless of course you mean the Roman Catholic Church; that would be a 7th Day Adventist teaching. EU do not attack Rome, God do.

    I'm afraid your ideas are garbled my friend, and that without scriptural support.



    This is very fascinating my friend. But are you suggesting that a world that is dominated by economics will somehow succumb to a lowly agency called the EU? Bro, this is all mere fantasy. Where the scripture to support this? What as the EU to do with where the Lord was crucified? How is the Harlot (ROME) where the Lord was crucified, and how are they also reckoned as Sodom and Egypt? Neither the scripture supports yours if Nero was the anti-christ, He died in Ad 67 and he never demanded people buy and sell unless he had the mark. Was Nero thrown into the lake of sulfur when he died in AD 67 instead of AD 70? Or was it Vespasian but he died in AD 79 instead of AD 70.



    So will Christ literally descend from the sky with a literal sword from His mouth? Will He literally be riding a white horse? Doesn't this contradict Acts chapter 1 that states His return will be as He left. Was Christ riding a horse when He departed? Will the EU and Rome fight against a literal Messiah riding a white horse with a sword sticking out of His mouth?
    Nobody with the right mind would expect Jesus to ride with a horse with a sword in his mouth, do you? Is God so low-tech when He could create the earth, sun, moon, planets and stars and everything on earth?Human can't even do that although we are trying to be like God by trying to create and harness fusion energy, the power source in which God create the sun and stars.

    What then do the passages above speak of? God's judgment upon the nation that destroyed the Harlot. It also speaks of the invitation to the marriage supper of the lamb. Are you suggesting that the marriage has not yet happened? Do you not recall that the Lord told the Apostles that the people of His generation would suffer wrath and fall by the sword, and how He also stated that one would be taken, and the other left? The Apostles then asked, "Where Lord". His reply was, "where ever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." What does this mean, and how does this connect with verses 17-18? Let's compare:

    Matthew 24:28
    For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

    Luke 17:37
    And they answered and said to Him, 'Where, Lord?' So He said to them, 'Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.'

    17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."


    The verses above are about the antichrist who have deceived the people and where these people were killed that's where the eagles will gather and Jesus was warning them not to go where these people gathered and be deceived by the anti-christ:
    Matthew 24:26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. See the connection?




    See the connection? Now can this be future? Nope, it cannot. Because according to Luke, this was a first century generation fulfillment:

    Luke 21:

    20 'But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
    That sounds more like the destruction of jerusalem in AD 70 but I am not very convinced unless I see Mount Pella or Roman armies in those verses. And that does not mean that the verses after 24 are talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in Ad 70.

    The times of the Gentiles involved the final 7 years of its existence. When the war began, all heck broke lose, and Israel became a haunting place; a place of despair; a tomb stone filled with dead bodies. Daniel's city, temple, and people came to its end, like a large Mill-Stone thrown into the sea, never to be found again. The voice of the Bride and Bride Groom shall never be found in you again.
    What never to be found? Jerusalem continue to exist throughout after AD 70 although rather obscure but now look at it today, it is a thriving city.

    Revelation 18:23

    23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.
    Look at Jerusalem today, are the lamps in Jerusalem not shining, the voice of marriage not heard anymore? what sorcery that all nations were deceived? Was it talking about Jerusalem or some other place?

    Thus, as you can see, the Israel you expect to be built with the waive of God's magic wand is not written in scripture. IN FACT, Revelation 18:23 testifies against the eschatology you propose.



    I'll let you ponder over that one. I merely stated that the 1000 years could be just a simple day to us. But you choose to make this a literal 1000 years, when not even the Greek word agrees with you. The Text reads, "Chillias", and not "Chillia". This means that the Greek word is plural, indicating an undetermined amount of time. However, as stated, following your own rules, the 1000 years could also be "A Day". For the "DAY OF THE LORD", that is, "The 1000 years of the Lord" shall come like a thief in the night. But why 1,000 years is 40 years to Ad 70? If 1,000 years is aday or a day is 1,000 years it doesn't matter. God ca make an eternity into a second and a second into an eternity. But please explain why 1,000 years reign must mean 40 years to Ad 70.

    I'm just trying to set you free from the daily tabloids my friend. But only you can make that first step. If you want to remain in the confused state as a Futurist, that is your choice. But keep in mind that I, and many such as myself, were once Futurist's. So what they teach is nothing knew; well perhaps the data itself has changed within the past 20 years or so. But this EU thing, Rome Thing, and Micro-Chip is all man-made jargon that has no place in the Church; it is all mere fiction and based on a false eschatology that has a very long history of being wrong. Why make more history confirming this point? I am equally confused with preterism and I believe others as well.... 1,000 years to mean 40 years, 200 million man army to mean many armies, antichrist to mean Nero etc. etc. I believe preterists are as confused as futurists. No one is to blame, Revelation is not an easy book to understand.

    Joe

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