John Hagee predicts more doom and gloom

[TheForgiven]

Hello everyone! I hope you all don't mind me starting a topic on the well known John Hagee.

Last night as I retired to bed, I happened to come across his show where he spoke about Revelation 9:

13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power[a] is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

According to John Hagee, this is a representation of China. He believes that the red and yellow represents their flag, as shown here:



I don't remember his connection with the color blue, but if I'm not mistaken, "Blue" is China's most popular color, or it had something to do with a uniform. I must apologize for my inability to recall the connection of China and Blue.

Lastly, he states that the fire breathing that comes from their mouths as indicated in the passage above represents the Chinese dragons used during ceremonies.

His basic prediction is that China is going to become the next world superpower, destroy the United States (after the Christians are Raptured), and they would team up with Iran to destroy Israel. But first, the president of Iran has to obtain at least 5 to 7 Nuclear bombs in order to destroy Israel, and the following US targets:

1. Miami
2. New York
3. Houston Tx
4. California

I don't remember the rest he mentioned.....again I apologize for not remembering all the details.

What does this all mean folks? You decide. I'd like to personally ask John why he feels that Israel is so important to China. Other than the fact that the entire world loves Israel for its history, but what possible economical importance would geographical Israel even serve China? Absolutely nothing! China is a growing economical economy. But it's military is still behind the technological curve. Even so, I'm quite confident that they have very little interest in trying to overtake Israel. And I doubt very seriously that their plans include joining with a self proclaimed terrorists who is basically nothing more than a big mouth trying to stir up trouble via media and propaganda....I'm referring to the President of Iran. Is he a problem? Well sure. But I'm certain you could find more trouble in our land when compared to Iran's President.

John Hagee shows his ignorance in that he's interpreting Revelation in a modern day fashion where the early church would have had absolutely NO IDEA what St. John was prophesying about. Not to mention that John Hagee shows an obvious error that he would not be able to explain. The "Trumpets" were not attacks on the world, but upon Apostate Israel which contained false Jews. The chosen Jews part of the 12 Tribes of Israel were sealed from this wrath. Not so with those who were not sealed. Those Tribes don't exist anymore, so how (or why) would Christ blow a trumpet of disaster upon a land with Tribes that no longer exist? This was obviously fulfilled in the first century WHEN THE TRIBES DID EXIST! Each Tribe showed a figurative number of 12,000 sealed; these would be spared from the coming woes, trumpets, and bowls of wrath, etc.

John Hagee needs to come to this forum and take some lessons because his interpretations remind me too much of Charles Manson.

Sound off Church!

Joe

[CWH]

Thanks Joe,

Sounds interesting and inspiring. Of course, I don't believe in everything he said.

13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, 'Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.' 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power[a] is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

According to John Hagee, this is a representation of China. He believes that the red and yellow represents their flag, as shown here:

I don't remember his connection with the color blue, but if I'm not mistaken, "Blue" is China's most popular color, or it had something to do with a uniform.

What about the 200 million man army? What about the kings from the east...from Gog and Magog? what about the 1,000 year reign? what about the Euphrates drying up? etc.

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

Thanks Joe,

Sounds interesting and inspiring. Of course, I don't believe in everything he said.

Inspiring? Not me. You can't take this guy serious. He's been wrong too many times before, so why would anyone who has a history of being wrong have any amount of credibility?

Quote:
13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power[a] is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

According to John Hagee, this is a representation of China. He believes that the red and yellow represents their flag, as shown here:

I don't remember his connection with the color blue, but if I'm not mistaken, "Blue" is China's most popular color, or it had something to do with a uniform.

What about the 200 million man army? What about the kings from the east...from Gog and Magog? what about the 1,000 year reign? what about the Euphrates drying up? etc.

Does it have to be exactly 200,000,000 million? In the Old Testament, there are references to large numbers of hills, such as a 1000 hills, etc. But are these exactly a thousand hills? Come on brother Cheow, you can't be serious. What nation builds a military with exactly 200,000,000 million men? Why not 205,514,322 million, give or take a couple of Trillion?

Now, the kings from the east was a picture of Titus and his allies gathering at the Euphrates river and planning an attack towards Jerusalem from the North. Others marches from the South.

What does China have to do with Gog and Magog? Most Futurist's apply this towards Russia. So are we to believe that Russia and China are going to gang up on poor little geographical Israel?

I understand your reasons for believing this (or something like this), but you've got to have some common sense and practicality in your beliefs brother Choew. What possible reason would they have to gain in attacking Israel? Neither China nor Russia are that religiously dominated that they act in accordance with Muslim standards in initiating some form of genocide or torment for the sake of gaining control of a land that would have no financial or economic profit. What you and believers like you are suggesting, based on your interpretations of Revelation is a Religious war; something neither Russia or China would care to engage in. Now there have been mass genocides in Russia (Kurds, Muslims, Greeks, European Jews, etc.), but this is by no means a religious battle; at least not in the sense of Revelation.

I bet China, if they heard of John Hagee's predictions, would be laughing and rolling at this stuff. Who would have thought that China, and it's million man army, would waste so much time, resource, and effort in their thickening plans to invade little Israel. And why? Because the Futurist's (some anyways) believe it will happen.

This is too much movie magic, if you don't mind me saying.

Joe

[CWH]

Hi Joe,
Look at the mention of 200 million army and John confirmed that the number was right. I believe John couldn't believed the number of 200 million army at that time. Currently, the whole world combined have almost 200 million army. When in the 1st century was a third of mankind killed? Obviously, the battle of Jerusalem in AD 70 did not caused a third of the population of the Roman empire estimated at 15 million people out of a total of 50 million to be wiped out. You can't be serious Joe.

13The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns[b] of the golden altar that is before God. 14It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

Brother Choew, if you haven't looked at the literal passage in question, then here's your chance my fellow brother:

Revelation 9:16 (Young's Literal Translation)

16and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.

In exact English, it would read, "and the number of the forces of the horemen ten thousands of two thousands; I heard their number.

Was John stating an exact number here? Or using an exaggerated expression to simply say, "An enormously large army!" The answer is obvious, for if John were trying to provide an exact head count of the attackers, would he not have given the exact number? As you can see from the literal translation, no exact 200,000,000 million man army was given.

If you choose to keep looking for the so called "200,000,000 million man army", then you'll be waiting forever; trust me, it'll never happen in your life time. No country in the world could support such a large army. And the world is too divided religiously and economically to engage in unified combat. And keep this mind. What possible logical, or reason would the entire world have against a small land you call Israel? This is pure fiction, and quite frankly, absurd....no pun intended towards you.

Teachers like Hagee claim that Russia, China, and Iran will fight against little tiny Israel. But I doubt very seriously that all of their military would be large enough to constitute a 200,000,000 million man army; not now, not ever.

I feel sorry for you brother. Anyone trapped with this kind of perception will only find disappointment from one failed prediction after another. And if this idea is true (200,000,000 million man army), I can confidently say that the Lord's return cannot be anytime soon; especially in our day. Why? Because our world is far too divided unite against a tiny nation called Israel, and build an army so vast and so large; large enough to engage in non-nonsensical combat against a tiny nation that has very little economical value. Sure geographical Israel has historical value to those of us who are Christian. But the non-Christians see absolutely no value in geographical Israel. Therefore, what makes you believe that China would engage with Russia against geographical Israel? Sure we know why the Muslims do; they feel that the land belongs to them. But they don't even come close to accidentally having a large enough army to fight against Israel.

And let's not forget one important military fact. ISRAEL HAS NUKES, WAR PLANES, AND A PRETTY GOOD MILITARY. Iran has zilch! Notta! Their only source of threat comes from a crazed people strapping themselves with nitroglycerin and home made bombs. So this entire notion of a literal 200,000,000 million man army is purely fictional.

In conclusion, Revelation 9:16 is not an exact figure of the army, but an adjective describing the immense size of this attack against Apostate Israel. And given the fact that more than a million Jews were killed in the first century, during a 3.5 year period (give or take), I'm sure it took a lot more soldiers to accomplish this kind of victory (slaughtering more than a million Jews). It's not as though a few thousand Roman solders marched against Israel and slaughtered a million Jews; Rome was not THAT powerful. Besides, they had a great deal of help from the other nations.

Good luck brother Cheow. But I promise you'll never see an army that large.

Joe

[Edward Goodie]

Brother Choew, if you haven't looked at the literal passage in question, then here's your chance my fellow brother:

Revelation 9:16 (Young's Literal Translation)

16and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.

In exact English, it would read, "and the number of the forces of the horemen ten thousands of two thousands; I heard their number.

Was John stating an exact number here? Or using an exaggerated expression to simply say, "An enormously large army!" The answer is obvious, for if John were trying to provide an exact head count of the attackers, would he not have given the exact number? As you can see from the literal translation, no exact 200,000,000 million man army was given.

If you choose to keep looking for the so called "200,000,000 million man army", then you'll be waiting forever; trust me, it'll never happen in your life time. No country in the world could support such a large army. And the world is too divided religiously and economically to engage in unified combat. And keep this mind. What possible logical, or reason would the entire world have against a small land you call Israel? This is pure fiction, and quite frankly, absurd....no pun intended towards you.

Teachers like Hagee claim that Russia, China, and Iran will fight against little tiny Israel. But I doubt very seriously that all of their military would be large enough to constitute a 200,000,000 million man army; not now, not ever.

I feel sorry for you brother. Anyone trapped with this kind of perception will only find disappointment from one failed prediction after another. And if this idea is true (200,000,000 million man army), I can confidently say that the Lord's return cannot be anytime soon; especially in our day. Why? Because our world is far too divided unite against a tiny nation called Israel, and build an army so vast and so large; large enough to engage in non-nonsensical combat against a tiny nation that has very little economical value. Sure geographical Israel has historical value to those of us who are Christian. But the non-Christians see absolutely no value in geographical Israel. Therefore, what makes you believe that China would engage with Russia against geographical Israel? Sure we know why the Muslims do; they feel that the land belongs to them. But they don't even come close to accidentally having a large enough army to fight against Israel.

And let's not forget one important military fact. ISRAEL HAS NUKES, WAR PLANES, AND A PRETTY GOOD MILITARY. Iran has zilch! Notta! Their only source of threat comes from a crazed people strapping themselves with nitroglycerin and home made bombs. So this entire notion of a literal 200,000,000 million man army is purely fictional.

In conclusion, Revelation 9:16 is not an exact figure of the army, but an adjective describing the immense size of this attack against Apostate Israel. And given the fact that more than a million Jews were killed in the first century, during a 3.5 year period (give or take), I'm sure it took a lot more soldiers to accomplish this kind of victory (slaughtering more than a million Jews). It's not as though a few thousand Roman solders marched against Israel and slaughtered a million Jews; Rome was not THAT powerful. Besides, they had a great deal of help from the other nations.

Good luck brother Cheow. But I promise you'll never see an army that large.

Joe

Cheow, symbolism my friend, within a very symbolic book...it is a very difficult lesson but consistent with many the OT metaphors, figures and symbols there too...

Do you really believe the moon shone like the sun and the sun got seven times brighter back in Isaiah's day? Do you really believe that?

Isaiah 30:26 - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

[CWH]

I am surprised Joe,

The 200 million man army is not fighting against the country of Israel, they are fighting against God. I agree with you the land of Israel is insignificant. They are fighting against God because they do not want God to rule over them, they do not want to lose their way of luxuriant, decadent way of life, their properties, their families.

Imagine that there is an invasion from outer space (I am not a Star War craze) in which aliens intent to rule over us and we are going to lose our properties, way of life etc. And they intent to fight with us, the mother of all battle around the region of Israel. What do you think the world will do? The most likely reaction is that the United Nations will mobilize all the armies from the nations of the world which currently amount to almost 200 million to fight against this invasion and they will gather around Israel to meet the aliens.

I am not saying that God is an alien but what I am saying that God will come to fight against the rebellious ungodly unrepentent people who refused to submit to God at an appointed time in future. This is clearly stated in Revelation 9:

13The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns[b] of the golden altar that is before God. 14It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.

17The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

20The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

And the final victory belongs to God:

Revelation 19: 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Want to know how many soldiers including reservists the whole world currently has? It is almost 200 million. Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mber_of_troops


As for Truthseeker, I never doubt if God can make the moon or the sun shines 7 times brighter. There are stars millions of times brighter than the sun, what is 7 times brighter? Why doubt the ability of God? Is anything impossible for God? The verse in Isaiah 30 refers to the future comparable with Revelation 16:8:

Isaiah 30:26 - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

Revelation 16: 8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Many Blessings

[Edward Goodie]

As for Truthseeker, I never doubt if God can make the moon or the sun shines 7 times brighter. There are stars millions of times brighter than the sun, what is 7 times brighter? Why doubt the ability of God? Is anything impossible for God? The verse in Isaiah 30 refers to the future comparable with Revelation 16:8:

Isaiah 30:26 - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

Revelation 16: 8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Many Blessings

But this is the problem Cheow, I do not doubt the ability of God for even one nanosecond. But I do doubt the ability of people to understand this common Hebrew metaphor! I know because I once thought exactly the same thing...

What you cannot see in this Isaiah passage is that this "increased illumination" occurs IN THE DAY "that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound."

Now, I don't know what you believe Isaiah meant by the period referring to "IN THE DAY," but if you take it to mean either the church (which I kind of doubt) or your millennium (which I think is possible) or even within the time of Isaiah (not likely), then you have one rather LARGE hermeneutic difficulty, especially if you take those "illuminating events" as actual, literal, physical events taking place in our universe.

If the moon actually, literally and physically was as bright as the sun, and the sun actually, literally and physically was made to burn seven times brighter, then, without a doubt the planet earth would be burn to a cinder and likely vaporized along with all the planets closer to the sun!!! Essentially that would place the Earth a mere 240,000 miles from the sun (our moon) rather than its normal 93,000,000 distance! I don't know if Mars would be vaporized, although I think it would be, because Mars, at its closest point to Earth is only about 34 million miles away. And since the sun is 93 million miles from earth, just imagine if our moon was shining as bright as our sun...it would be slightly closer to the sun (our moon) than Mercury is to the real sun. Average temperature on Mercury is...well... it is very, very hot - one would need an asbestos suit for sure. Now, add that to the real sun shining seven times brighter and it gets even hotter. All people would die horrible (but very brief) fiery deaths!

But the whole point is that it has nothing to do with those objects up in the sky! And this, Cheow, is probably the biggest problem in discussing these types of things with you...

Since there is no doubt that all individuals would perish if truly the sun did shine seven times brighter and our moon shone like the sun, why then would Isaiah say this would occur in a time of BLESSING? The words "binding" and "healing" are GOOD THINGS.

Cheow, this verse and many, many others are indicative of this one fact:

When the metaphors of cosmic objects are said to be bright, it is a time of great blessing.

When the metaphors of cosmic objects are said to be dark, it is a time of great trouble.

These COMMON metaphors are carried into the NT as well. Matthew 24:29 is one that is also interpreted in an overly literal fashion. Revelation is just packed with them...

This is why we need to put down our 21st century Western cultural and scientific brains and pick up a Hebrew one with knowledge of these common idioms. How do you think Jacob knew that the sun, moon and stars referred to himself, Joseph's mother and his eleven children in Genesis 37:9-10?

Please consider what I have said very prayerfully...

Peace and blessings!

[CWH]

Hi Truthseeker,

Have you been burned by the Moon? Even if the Moon's reflected light is 7 times brighter, it won't even raised a temperature neither will you get a moon-tan. What Isaiah 30 said is that the sun will be 7 times brighter and thus the reflected moonlight will also be 7 times brighter. The sun 7 times brighter does not necessary mean it will 7 times hotter. There are weather compensatory mechanisms in place that compensates to maintain equilibrium. The earth abides forever, remember? There are stars millions of times brighter than the sun, and if they are that equally hot, they will burn themselves out of existence! Do you believe that the sun can be darker but yet hotter, this is due to sunspots which radiates electro-magnetic waves thus heating the earth like a microwave.

I have been a Christian for 30 years and I have no regret about believing the futurist's theology. It fits like a glove.

Many Blessings.

[Edward Goodie]

Hi Truthseeker,

Have you been burned by the Moon? Even if the Moon's reflected light is 7 times brighter, it won't even raised a temperature neither will you get a moon-tan. What Isaiah 30 said is that the sun will be 7 times brighter and thus the reflected moonlight will also be 7 times brighter. The sun 7 times brighter does not necessary mean it will be 7 times hotter. There are weather compensatory mechanisms in place that compensates to maintain equilibrium. The earth abides forever, remember? There are stars millions of times brighter than the sun, and if they are that equally hot, they will burn themselves out of existence! Do you believe that the sun can be darker but yet hotter, this is due to sunspots which radiates electro-magnetic waves thus heating the earth like a microwave.

I have been a Christian for 30 years and I have no regret about believing the futurist's theology. It fits like a glove.

Many Blessings.

So, all you have to do now is show me how your literal, physical explanation fits the context of "binding up the breach of the people." Bringing in your 21st century Western cultural and scientific brain to answer might be a tad difficult. But understanding these common Hebrew idioms and metaphors is but a simple task. Read the surrounding passages and you will easily discover the many metaphors in that one chapter alone!

BTW, you forgot to answer my question concerning Jacob and Genesis 37:9-10...it is along the same lines.

And where do you get the idea that "The earth abides forever, remember?" What Scripture(s) do you use for that?

Anyway, ignoring the many Hebrew metaphors IS just one of the things that separates you and me. Ignoring the literal, physical time statements is another one...Ignoring the OT promises that are fulfilled to the church is another one...Hopefully, you don't think the mark of the beast is technologically related (laser marks, barcodes, computer implants, etc.) because that would leave 18 centuries of generations completely devoid of this understanding...but that's what you get when you interpret the Scriptures through a 21st century lens...