# Thread: GOD'S GEMATRIA, THE VICTORS, SONGS AND "HARPS"

1. ## Just the facts, Ma'am.

The problem with English Gematria calculated from the place values is based on the fact that 83% of all the words are compressed into a numerical range between 50 and 150. I analyzed a dictionary with about 79,000 words, and found that about 66,000 of them had a value between 50 and 150. Here is a graph that shows the distribution:

This means that all the information stored in the pattern of the letters is lost. Any structure that could have been there has been compressed to such an extent that all distinctions are lost and we have nothing but a meaningless smooshed mess o' porridge.

Note in particular that most of the numbers ccc used in his post - 73, 74, and 88 - are found near the peak of the distribution where there were over 700 choices to choose from. And that's not counting the foreign transliterated words like Y'shua (note that he could have chosen Yeshua if that had fit the pattern he was looking for).

Now don't mistake what I am trying to demonstrate here. Lists of words can be useful if the reality of divine design based on gematria has already been proven by other means. But such lists, especially when based on ordinal systems which have an extremely high compression ratio, lose too much information to be useful by themselves.

Richard

2. ccc
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## God's Gematria, The Victors, Songs and "Harps"

Thanks for the list Richard. I was aware of some of this.
I especially liked "dingdong".

Not many associated with Jesus were there?
I believe someone said that one out of every 70-80 words would sum at 74.

I wonder if this could be narrowed down? Might it be closer to one out of every 74?

Panin, yourself and others stress the importance of 37 and 73 in the Bible and in mathematics in general.

What kind of a list of words using the gematria of Hebrew or Greek might those numbers result in? Do you think most would be as meaningless and without association with Jesus as the "English" list you provided?

When you get time, I would be interested to know if there is any significance in 3366 ... the total vibrations in an octave.

3. Originally Posted by ccc
Thanks for the list Richard. I was aware of some of this.
I especially liked "dingdong".
Ha! How did I miss that one?

Your humor is most welcome here ccc. Thanks.

Originally Posted by ccc
Not many associated with Jesus were there?
I believe someone said that one out of every 70-80 words would sum at 74.
According to the data I used, which was a very big dictionary of over 79,000 words, about 779/79,000 = about 1% of all words sum to 74. That's not too far off of 1/80 = 1.25%.

Originally Posted by ccc
I wonder if this could be narrowed down? Might it be closer to one out of every 74?
Nope. Its very close to 1 out of every hundred. If you want to be more exact, its about one out of 98.

Originally Posted by ccc
Panin, yourself and others stress the importance of 37 and 73 in the Bible and in mathematics in general.
Yes indeed. That is an extremely well established fact as far as I can tell. But from what I have read, though Panin was an important pioneer in gematria, he was not a principled researcher and his ideas apparently have misled many.

Originally Posted by ccc
What kind of a list of words using the gematria of Hebrew or Greek might those numbers result in? Do you think most would be as meaningless and without association with Jesus as the "English" list you provided?
Good question ccc. My point in this thread is to help us establish the principles by which we conduct our research into the alphanumeric structure of God's Word (or any language, for that matter). The important point is that the lists do not reveal structure - they reveal "coincidence." Whether that "coincidence" was designed or not requires further research. So my question to you is this: How do you distinguish between chance and design when you study gematria?

Also, it is very important that you recognize my criticism was twofold:

1) A mere list of words with common values is insufficient to prove design

2) The list you were using was compressed to such a degree as to lose all meaning. Did you notice that over 66,000 words were compressed into a range of 101 numbers between 50 and 150? It is that extreme compression that makes the "overlaps" with the values of other words meaningless. Its like smearing the ink on a page before its dry. The color becomes a smeared uniform gray, and no one can tell what the words meant.

Originally Posted by ccc
When you get time, I would be interested to know if there is any significance in 3366 ... the total vibrations in an octave.
I am very interesting in the geometry of music. I am convinced, for example, that the designers of the Arabic numerals chose the figure 8 because it is an image of what an octave actually looks like. And I associate that with Jesus = 888 and Omega = 800 and His appearance to Thomas on the eighth day after the resurrection. I will meditate on the information you provided about 3366 and see if I can get any insight.

God bless you brother, and thank you for your patience and good humor as I put your gematria under the microscope.

Richard

4. ## Two word phrases

I received an email with another long list of words and phrases that sum to 153 in the English Gematria with a=1, b=2, ... z=26. A few examples:

ROMAN NUMBERS = 153
THE GREAT WHORE = 153
A NUMBERING SIGN = 153
COUNT THE BEAST = 153
NUMERIC PROOF = 153
TO REVEAL SATAN = 153
APPLY WISDOM = 153
SIGN OF WISDOM = 153

This made me wonder what the probabilities were for phrases with two or more words. For simplicity, lets just look at two word phrases that sum to 153. And for further simplicity, we will restrict the values of the individual words to be between 50 and 150 and assume a uniform distribution of 66,000/100 = 660 words per value in that range. That will make the calculations very simple, and they will be correct to an order of magnitude which is all we need for now.

So how many ways are there to arrive at 153 with two words in that range?

76 + 77 = 153
75 + 78 = 153
74 + 79 = 153
73 + 80 = 153
.
.
.
50 + 103 = 153

We have 27 pairs of numbers within that range that sum to 153. And for each pair, there are 660 choices for the first word, and 660 choices for the second word. This means that there are 660 x 660 x 27 = 11,761,200 possible two word combinations that sum to 153.

Let me repeat: That's nearly 12 MILLION possible two word phrases.

With numbers like this, anything is possible, and it is impossible to believe that the phrases are anything but coincidence.

RAM

5. ccc
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## God's Gematria, The Victors, Songs and "Harps"

Hi Richard,

Interesting that there are possibly 12 million two word phrases that could sum at 153 using that system.

Could your data indicate to us how many would result in meaningless gibberish and how many would make sense?

Of those that make sense, how many of them would point to the Book of Revelation and the numbering of the beast like the examples given?

Statistics don't necessarily tell us the whole story do they?

6. Originally Posted by ccc
Hi Richard,

Interesting that there are possibly 12 million two word phrases that could sum at 153 using that system.

Could your data indicate to us how many would result in meaningless gibberish and how many would make sense?

Of those that make sense, how many of them would point to the Book of Revelation and the numbering of the beast like the examples given?

Statistics don't necessarily tell us the whole story do they?
Hey there ccc,

You are absolutely correct! That stats don't tell anything like the "whole story." But they are important to keep in mind, so we have some idea about how to discern between chance and design.

The real problem is that we know that there will be "coincidences" like what you found in any language and with any arbitrary numbering system. Furthermore, the numbering system you use compresses 83% of all words into a range of 101 numbers between 50 and 150, so the lists you make are just a tiny tiny tiny fraction of all possible combinations. Furthermore, you do not use the articles consistently, so you can add an "a" or leave it out to make an even larger set of numbers match according to your whim. That adds yet another "fudge factor" that confuses the whole study.

So in all this, how is a person supposed to discern between chance and design?

If you have any suggestions, please share them.

Thanks!

Richard

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The problem is many say they believe in the Almighty GOD, WHO is working ALL things together for HIS purposes , then deny it when it comes to the "box" they put the MOST HIGH in. HIS WAYS ARE HIGHER THAN OURS

A1 B2 C3 till Z26

THE HOLY FATHER 151
JESUS CHRIST 151
HOLY SPIRIT 151
ON THE THIRD DAY 151
The latter rain 151
Christ the King 151
JESUS IS LORD 151
HIDDEN TREASURE 151
LITTLE CHILDREN 151
SHAKE THE HEAVENS 151
THE TEMPLE OF GOD 151
LORD OF HOSTS 151

simple english gematria 222
numeric equivalent 222
letters as numerals 222
alphanumeric system 222
the secret of the alphabet 222
the end from the beginning 222
it is hidden in the alphabet 222
the great triple two 222
vengeance for His temple 222
a thousand years as a day 222

PROOF for the Skeptics, who will give an account of every idle word they speak. www.CaliforniaCalamity.us , www.SanDiegoWarning2008.com and www.ZionsWatchmen.com

Baruch atah YESHUA haMashiyach Melech ha alom Adonay YAHUWAH....... Shema O Yisrael
Last edited by Watchman232; 04-02-2008 at 12:34 PM.

8. Originally Posted by Watchman232
The problem is many say they believe in the Almighty GOD, WHO is working ALL things together for HIS purposes , then deny it when it comes to the "box" they put the MOST HIGH in. HIS WAYS ARE HIGHER THAN OURS

A1 B2 C3 till Z26

THE HOLY FATHER 151
JESUS CHRIST 151
HOLY SPIRIT 151
ON THE THIRD DAY 151
The latter rain 151
Christ the King 151
JESUS IS LORD 151
HIDDEN TREASURE 151
LITTLE CHILDREN 151
SHAKE THE HEAVENS 151
THE TEMPLE OF GOD 151
LORD OF HOSTS 151

simple english gematria 222
numeric equivalent 222
letters as numerals 222
alphanumeric system 222
the secret of the alphabet 222
the end from the beginning 222
it is hidden in the alphabet 222
the great triple two 222
vengeance for His temple 222
a thousand years as a day 222

PROOF for the Skeptics, who will give an account of every idle word they speak. www.CaliforniaCalamity.us , www.SanDiegoWarning2008.com and www.ZionsWatchmen.com

Baruch atah YESHUA haMashiyach Melech ha alom Adonay YAHUWAH....... Shema O Yisrael
Hi Watchman232,

What do you think of my explanations about the problems with English gematria posted earlier in this thread?

Richard

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## The same measure

Shalom

Numbers reveal patterns, patterns reveal truth... the Torah is truth
EL =17
YHVH (Yod, Hey, Vav, Hey) is 10+5+6+5 = 26 (Hebrew value)
GOD =26 and 17
TORAH = 62 and 26
G=7 O=15 D=4 7+15+4 = 26 7+1+5+4 =17
T=20 O=15 R=18 A=1 H=8 20+15+18+1+8=62 2+0+1+5+1+8+1+8 =26

Echad, is aleph (1) + chet (8) + dalet (4) = 13. (Hebrew value)

Echad = 21 21/13 = 1.615384615384
One = 34 34/13 = 2.615384615384
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is One LORD 384 384/13 29.5384615384615384

2+9+5+3+8+4=31 the reflection of 13

34-21=13

the connection between each result is obvious / this discovery was made on 4/2/2008> This pattern repeats with increments of 13 8,21,34,47,60,73,86

Languages 87 Hidden Manna 87 Truth 87 Watchmen 87 YAHUWAH 87 ELohiym 87

198
God of my salvation
signs in the heavens
children of Jerusalem
the last trumpet
HE will raise us up
the resurrection
the firstfruits

Just a few more of many numbers that reveal a consistent theme.The above 198 phrases reveal a pattern.... quotes are taken from the KJV

Below is a link to Hebrew words and the value of each word... If i were to take a Hebrew dictionary and search numeric equivalents as was done with the English... I could come up with many words that are OPPOSITE in meaning as well... Hebrew words having the same spelling are understood by the context in which they are found...Do a study of phrases out of the scriptures and come to your conclusions.... a random search through a dictionary is meaningless .... value table Hebrew gematria http://www.billheidrick.com/works/hgemat.htm

not affiliated with this site... only for reference

Shalom
Katriel

Ezk 1:16 .....a wheel in the middle of a wheel= 232 the sum of the numbers= 232 116x2 =232 1 Kings 20:15 232 princes of the provinces , only verse in scripture with 232 more amazing discoveries in Ezekiel at http://gematria.dimensions.googlepages.com/number153 Understanding will remove all doubt
Last edited by Watchman232; 04-02-2008 at 09:30 PM.

10. Originally Posted by Watchman232
Shalom

Numbers reveal patterns, patterns reveal truth... the Torah is truth
EL =17
GOD =26 and 17
TORAH = 62 and 26
G=7 O=15 D=4 7+15+4 = 26 7+1+5+4 =17
T=20 O=15 R=18 A=1 H=8 20+15+18+1+8=62 2+0+1+5+1+8+1+8 =26

Languages 87 Hidden Manna 87 Truth 87 Watchmen 87 YAHUWAH 87 ELohiym 87

198
God of my salvation
signs in the heavens
children of Jerusalem
the last trumpet
HE will raise us up
the resurrection
the firstfruits

Just a few more of many numbers that reveal a consistent theme.The above 198 phrases reveal a pattern.... quotes are taken from the KJV

Below is a link to Hebrew words and the value of each word... If i were to take a Hebrew dictionary and search numeric equivalents as was done with the English... I could come up with many words that are OPPOSITE in meaning as well... Hebrew words having the same spelling are understood by the context in which they are found...Do a study of phrases out of the scriptures and come to your conclusions.... a random search through a dictionary is meaningless .... value table Hebrew gematria http://www.billheidrick.com/works/hgemat.htm

not affiliated with this site... only for reference

Shalom
Katriel

Ezk 1:16 .....a wheel in the middle of a wheel= 232 the sum of the numbers= 232 116x2 =232 1 Kings 20:15 232 princes of the provinces , only verse in scripture with 232 more amazing discoveries in Ezekiel at http://gematria.dimensions.googlepages.com/number153 Understanding will remove all doubt
Hi Watchman,

I have no doubt at all that God designed the Greek and Hebrew gematria. And the symmetric example you gave with Torah summing to 26 and 62 is interesting, and the kind of patterns that I find compelling. But in general, long lists of words and phrases with similar values are not compelling at all because they are just a tiny cherry-picked sampling of literally MILLIONS of possibilities. This means that there may not really any consistent themes - how do you know if all you have really done is just picked a few words that happen to go together well and have ignored the rest?

I explained this in the previous message #14 in this thread. Did you read it?

In my study of gematria, the thing that convinced me it was designed by God was the self-reflective integrity and reiterative self-similarity over scale. For example, the Unity Holograph is designed on nested patterns of 13, and 13 is itself the value of echad, the central word of the passage, and the whole verse sums to 1118 = 13 (One) x 86 (Elohim). Here is a pic of the Unity Holograph:

I have never seen any similar structures generated by English gematria, which doesn't seem likely anyway since we don't have any Scripture inspired in English.

Richard

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