Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 10 of 76

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    40

    GOD'S GEMATRIA, THE VICTORS, SONGS AND "HARPS"

    The victors with 'harps'.

    And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. Rev 15:2.

    'Harps' are a sign of prophecy. I Chronicles 25:1-3, Ps 49:1-3.

    To The Chief Musician.
    Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world: Both low and high, rich and poor, together. My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding.

    I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.
    Psalm 49.

    Wisdom and understanding are associated with solving the mystery of the beast’s number 666.
    Rev 13:18.

    Immediately following this 'numbering', we read of a group with a 'new song' that is not understood. This is associated with 'the voice of harpers harping with their harps'. Rev 14.

    Harpers Harping with their Harps … 'H' is our eighth alphabet letter.

    H-H-H … 'could' appear as … 888

    The following will likely fly like a lead balloon, as most students of prophecy only consider that God has designed the gematria of Hebrew Aramaic and Greek, but let us remember that God did not state the language to be used for the numbering. Perhaps the reason He did not is because it was not in existence in that day. Rev 13:18.

    I believe God may have designed at least some of our language and alpha-numeric system for a specific eschatological purpose for these last days.

    888 is the Greek gematria of Jesus … Iesous.

    The following examples use a most simple gematria … A=1 … Z=26.

    IESOUS = 88

    The victors over the image, mark and number sing the song of Moses. One of his songs is in Exodus. Another in Deut 32. There is Rabbinic thought that it contains the cryptogram (gematria) of Moses’ name, which is … 345.

    In that the victors over the number sing the Song of Moses, and that gematria is required to solve this mystery, it should not surprise us to find gematria hidden in one of Moses’ songs.

    Nothing is covered that will not be revealed or hidden that will not be known.
    Matt 1:26

    EXODUS = 88

    DAYSTAR = 88
    TEHILLIM = 88
    THE SONG = 88

    GOD’S HARP = 88

    GOD IS ONE = 88
    LIKE A LION = 88
    PASCHAL LAMB = 88

    The 'trump of God'. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am Alpha and Omega …

    VISION = 88
    TRUMP = 88
    SALPIGX = 88

    The longest chapter in the Bible is Psalm 119, it is an 'acrostic'. One who arranges things alphabetically, such as the acrostic verses, is referred to as an Abecedarius.

    ABECEDARIUS = 88
    ACROSTIC = 88
    VERSES = 88

    It is said that the term 'son of man' occurs 88 times in the NT when referring to Jesus.

    Emmanuel in Matt 1:23 is spelt with an 'E', but in Isaiah 8:8 it is spelt with an 'I'.

    IMMANUEL = 88

    Richard, if you haven’t written me off by now, the next example will likely put me over the edge … (I’m on probation)

    Regarding the Alpha and Omega, the A and Z in the Greek text of Revelation, 'Alpha' is spelt out in full, but 'Omega' is not, the low case symbol is used.

    I am Alpha and ……w

    I am Alpha and … … 800

    If Immanuel is 88 and Omega is 800, would it be by design that together, they sum at the number of Jesus? … 888

    I am sure all would agree that the purpose of the biblical Hebrew and Greek gematria is to give evidence as to the inspiration of His Word, whereas the 'purpose' of English gematria (I believe) is geared more to the understanding and interpretation of some of the mysteries of the book of Revelation.

    Simple English gematria (A-Z) reveals some interesting evidence relative to Jesus’ discourse with Peter in John 21 and, God’s 'sign in the net' … 153.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Seoul, Korea (originally from Auckland, New Zealand)
    Posts
    253

    English gematria

    Just letting you know I regard this so-called 'English gematria' as junk numerology, in contradistinction to the Greek and Hebrew in which Scripture was written. I vehemently oppose your contention that God might have sanctioned English as a gematrical language. Not a chance!

    Unlike the Hebrew and the Greek scripts, English - which uses the Latin alphabet - has never been historically requisitioned as an alphanumeric system. And that's the way it should stay. There is so much utter trash on the internet purporting to use 'English gematria', with all manner of diabolical systems employed to make things fit. Your efforts in this regard fall into the same category. Applying such a bogus methodology to prophecy I find to be utterly reprehensible. There is absolutely no biblical support for your position, just your own whim. This can never be allowed to be the basis of exegesis. Not ever!!! It does God no honour to ascribe things to Him that He did not do.

    I'm sure you mean no harm, but I see this bogus practice of 'English gematria' as severely detracting from what the true gematria is, which has an historical pedigree and produces awesome insights into the creative brilliance of Almighty God. If you ever wanted to use our alphabet as a number system, the only historical use of it has been the Romans requisitioning but seven of their characters for numeric purposes. Also, because the original autographs of Scripture were only written in the Hebrew and Greek scripts, these alone qualify as biblical gematria. You will find me deeply opposed to any attempt at introducing this false system of 'English gematria' anywhere on this forum. It is junk exegesis and worthy only of the trash can.

    Stephen
    Last edited by Stephen; 08-12-2007 at 04:48 AM.
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    13,916
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Just letting you know I regard this so-called 'English gematria' as junk numerology, in contradistinction to the Greek and Hebrew in which Scripture was written. I vehemently oppose your contention that God might have sanctioned English as a gematrical language. Not a chance!

    Unlike the Hebrew and the Greek scripts, English - which uses the Latin alphabet - has never been historically requisitioned as an alphanumeric system. And that's the way it should stay. There is so much utter trash on the internet purporting to use 'English gematria', with all manner of diabolical systems employed to make things fit. Your efforts in this regard fall into the same category. Applying such a bogus methodology to prophecy I find to be utterly reprehensible. There is absolutely no biblical support for your position, just your own whim. This can never be allowed to be the basis of exegesis. Not ever!!! It does God no honour to ascribe things to Him that He did not do.
    Stephen - your language is a little on the "sharp" side, don't you think? Its one thing to have a strong opinion, and to back it up with good reasons, but its quite another to totally trash someones beliefs. We're trying to have a conversation here, remember?

    Now I agree with you that there are real problems with the idea of English gematria. The first problem is that every researcher has to invent his or her own alphanumeric correlation since none has been provided by history. But that in itself is not a fatal flaw. Regular systems that mimic the Greek and Hebrew are easily constructed. The proof then is if they reveal any integrated structures like the holographs. Mere collections of identities don't prove very much, though they can be useful clues as to the symbolic meanings of the numbers. So this is one reason I reject English gematria: no one that I know of has every discovered integrated, self-reflective structures like the holographs.

    Another problem is that English gematria clouds the glory of what has been revealed in the gematria of the Greek and Hebrew. It throws so many new number-word associations - many of which are extremely fluid because of spelling variations - into the pot that it becomes impossible to discern between chance and design. This then is exacerbated when foreign terms are allowed into the mix. A prime example of this error is the use of the English transliteration of the Greek Iesous to arrive at the desired number of 88.

    But despite the problems that you and I see with English gematria, I would ask that you express you opinions in a way more conducive to friendly conversation Stephen. No one likes their ideas trashed, especially not in public.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    13,916
    Quote Originally Posted by ccc View Post
    The victors with 'harps'.

    And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. Rev 15:2.

    'Harps' are a sign of prophecy. I Chronicles 25:1-3, Ps 49:1-3.

    To The Chief Musician.
    Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world: Both low and high, rich and poor, together. My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding.

    I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.
    Psalm 49.

    Wisdom and understanding are associated with solving the mystery of the beast’s number 666.
    Rev 13:18.
    Hi there CCC!

    Sorry your post got slapped down so hard by Stephen. I hope that doesn't discourage you from conversation. Your association of harps with prophecy is correct. It might be interesting to pursue this point more.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccc View Post
    Immediately following this 'numbering', we read of a group with a 'new song' that is not understood. This is associated with 'the voice of harpers harping with their harps'. Rev 14.

    Harpers Harping with their Harps … 'H' is our eighth alphabet letter.

    H-H-H … 'could' appear as … 888
    This suggestion brings up a number of challenges. Sure, the Latin letter H could represent the Greek Eta, but it could also represent the Hebrew Hey (fifth letter). And since both of those letters represent the definite article in their respective languages, you could just as well read the three Hs as a stuttering "the the the" or even "or or or" since "H" is also how the word "or" is written in Greek. This means we could read the three Hs as "or the or" or "the or the" or we could mix them with the numerical values from the two languages to get "8 or 5" and so forth.

    In short, these kinds of associations seem to be entirely arbitrary and devoid of any objectively verifiable meaning. We also need to ask ourselves if we have any reason to believe that GOD ALMIGHTY was communicating to us through arbitrary substrings selected from the first letters of non-consecutive words in a relatively modern English translation of the New Testament that He gave to us in Greek.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccc View Post
    The following will likely fly like a lead balloon, as most students of prophecy only consider that God has designed the gematria of Hebrew Aramaic and Greek, but let us remember that God did not state the language to be used for the numbering. Perhaps the reason He did not is because it was not in existence in that day. Rev 13:18.

    I believe God may have designed at least some of our language and alpha-numeric system for a specific eschatological purpose for these last days.
    That is a very interesting position. But if it is true, then we would expect that He did it in a way that would make it perfectly clear how do discern between His Design and random chance. That is the test that I will apply to this suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccc View Post
    888 is the Greek gematria of Jesus … Iesous.

    The following examples use a most simple gematria … A=1 … Z=26.

    IESOUS = 88
    This looks like a serious flaw. In your first example with the three Hs you said the Latin letter H corresponded to Eta. Now you are using the Latin letter E to represent Eta in IESOUS. Furthermore, the spelling of IESOUS is just an attempt to represent the sound of the Greek using English letters. It is not an accurate transliteration because the second letter is supposed to be Eta, not Epsilon.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccc View Post
    The victors over the image, mark and number sing the song of Moses. One of his songs is in Exodus. Another in Deut 32. There is Rabbinic thought that it contains the cryptogram (gematria) of Moses’ name, which is … 345.
    I would be interested to know what the Rabbis see there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccc View Post
    In that the victors over the number sing the Song of Moses, and that gematria is required to solve this mystery, it should not surprise us to find gematria hidden in one of Moses’ songs.

    Nothing is covered that will not be revealed or hidden that will not be known.
    Matt 1:26

    EXODUS = 88

    DAYSTAR = 88
    TEHILLIM = 88
    THE SONG = 88

    GOD’S HARP = 88

    GOD IS ONE = 88
    LIKE A LION = 88
    PASCHAL LAMB = 88

    The 'trump of God'. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am Alpha and Omega …

    VISION = 88
    TRUMP = 88
    SALPIGX = 88

    The longest chapter in the Bible is Psalm 119, it is an 'acrostic'. One who arranges things alphabetically, such as the acrostic verses, is referred to as an Abecedarius.

    ABECEDARIUS = 88
    ACROSTIC = 88
    VERSES = 88

    It is said that the term 'son of man' occurs 88 times in the NT when referring to Jesus.

    Emmanuel in Matt 1:23 is spelt with an 'E', but in Isaiah 8:8 it is spelt with an 'I'.

    IMMANUEL = 88

    Richard, if you haven’t written me off by now, the next example will likely put me over the edge … (I’m on probation)
    It is not you, my friend, that I have "written off" - I am merely testing your suggestion and finding it wanting.

    Here is what you need to think about. How many words and phrases from the mix of the entire English language PLUS the entire transliterated Greek and Hebrew languages do you think would sum to 88? I assure you the results are such as to make any small set like the one you have shared here appear entirely meaningless.

    As for your suggesting that God may have "left the language" unspecified for some end-time eschatological purpose - I can assure you that the results you have suggested most certainly will not fulfill any such purpose, because there is nothing about them that forms any kind of evidence of divine action.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccc View Post
    Regarding the Alpha and Omega, the A and Z in the Greek text of Revelation, 'Alpha' is spelt out in full, but 'Omega' is not, the low case symbol is used.

    I am Alpha and ……w

    I am Alpha and … … 800

    If Immanuel is 88 and Omega is 800, would it be by design that together, they sum at the number of Jesus? … 888
    Why did you choose the spelling of Immanuel rather than the much more common Emmanuel? (A quick google search shows that the ratio is about 4 to 1). The answer, of course, is because you chose the form that fit the pattern you wanted. And that shows why its impossible to claim design if all you have are collections of words with matching numerical values. You can do that in any language. It proves nothing in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccc View Post
    I am sure all would agree that the purpose of the biblical Hebrew and Greek gematria is to give evidence as to the inspiration of His Word, whereas the 'purpose' of English gematria (I believe) is geared more to the understanding and interpretation of some of the mysteries of the book of Revelation.
    If we can't understand Revelation by reading the plain text, I can assure you that we will NEVER understand it through arbitrary number associations!

    Quote Originally Posted by ccc View Post
    Simple English gematria (A-Z) reveals some interesting evidence relative to Jesus’ discourse with Peter in John 21 and, God’s 'sign in the net' … 153.
    Your use of the word "evidence" points to the real issue at hand. Do you have any evidence that English gematria has any validity at all? If so, I would be very interested to discuss it with you.

    I know some folks who take English Gematria seriously. I'll present some of their evidence in a future post.

    God bless you as you study His most excellent Word!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Seoul, Korea (originally from Auckland, New Zealand)
    Posts
    253

    Counsel

    Hello Richard!

    Your counsel has been noted, and I will take it to heart. This 'English gematria' subject is the very one that I eschew above all others. I have seen it ruin the work of some people I once held in respect (Ecclesiastes 10:1). Without very strict rules in place, gematria loses its impact. These very strict rules govern its revelatory power. Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the converted when I say this to you. But, yes, I will endeavour to curb my acerbic reactions in future. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

    Stephen
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    40

    God's Gematria, The Victors, Songs and "Harps"

    No problem with Stephen's criticism ... at my age, it rolls off like water off a duck's back.

    Stephen, when you get to heaven, look me up. I will be with a group of prophecy students standing under a banner which reads:

    "We told you so ... but you wouldn't listen".

    God is quite capable of designing English numerics for a specific purpose for these last days.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    13,916
    Quote Originally Posted by ccc View Post
    God is quite capable of designing English numerics for a specific purpose for these last days.
    I agree absolutely that God is able.

    My question is whether there is any evidence that He actually has done so.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    40

    God's Gematria, The Victors, Songs and "Harps"

    MUSIC AND MATH …THE 'KEY' OF DAVID

    David, the sweet psalmist of Israel holds the key. Rev 3:7.
    Using the alpha-numeric system A=1 … Z=26, results in:

    THE KEY = 74

    I will only list a few (there are many) but Jesus, your pet peeve Y’shua, Joshua and several other significant words associated with Jesus and prophecy sum at … 74.

    Richard, is it only Messianic Jews that use 'Y’shua' or do non Christian Jews also? If so, perhaps that is why God has chosen this particular spelling as a 'sign' to unbelieving Jews that Jesus/Y’shua is the Messiah they look for.

    I realize that this is meaningless for you, but I do not need a multitude of 'hits' to convince me of God’s purpose for English gematria … the following eleven are sufficient.

    JESUS = 74
    Y’SHUA = 74
    JOSHUA = 74

    JEWISH = 74
    MESSIAH = 74

    CROSS = 74
    GOSPEL = 74
    MENORAH = 74

    SIMPLE = 74
    ENGLISH = 74
    GEMATRIA = 74

    Recall Ivan Panin’s comments on the Hebrew numerics of Genesis 1:1.

    'a most elaborate design of 37 and its reverse 73 and 7 and 4 runs through the first Bible verse'.

    The 4 ZoA, the 24 Elders, and the 144 thousands that immediately follow the 'numbering' of the beast, sing a 'new song'. David in Psalm 144 also sings a 'new song' and as noted earlier, his 'key' is found in Revelation … 3:7

    God’s first 'sign' and first letter is found 'in the beginning', so let us begin.

    BEGIN = 37

    The word 'mene' indicates to 'count or number'.

    MENE = 37

    As noted by Panin, it’s reverse is … 73

    COUNT = 73
    NUMBER = 73

    Not my field, but I understand there are perfect, ordinal and prime numbers.

    PERFECT = 73
    ORDINAL = 73

    PRIME NUMBERS = 153
    John 21:11

    Speaking about the new song of David and his key, I think it prophetically significant that the number of songs attributed to David are … 73.

    If David sang a 'new song' it would be his song number … 74
    JESUS = 74

    If David’s new song was added to the 150 psalms, the total would be …151

    JESUS CHRIST = 151

    If someone can offer an alternate explanation for the new song of the 144k and David’s new song in Psalm 144, I would be interested in hearing that.
    Richard, did you note something about 'to teach' being 74 in Psalm 144?

    In 'addition' to 37 and 73, Panin mentioned 7 and 4.
    Our 7th letter is G and our 4th is D … … G-D

    Our Bible and Music.

    The Bible consists of 66 books.
    The 'chain measure' of the surveyor consists of 100 links or 66 feet.
    Michael the Archangel binds Satan with a 'chain'.

    The musical 'octave' sums at … OCTAVE = 66

    You will recall that the vibrations of the musical note 'A' is 440.

    The sum of the vibrations for each note of an octave C to C is … 3102.
    The vibrations of the intervals are twin numbers 33, 33, 22, 44, 44, 55, 33.

    The total vibrations of the notes and intervals are … 3366

    Richard, would there be anything significant about 3366 for you?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Seoul, Korea (originally from Auckland, New Zealand)
    Posts
    253

    Gematria

    ccc.

    Just to reiterate what I wrote previously, but in a manner more akin to what Richard wrote, I see no revelation in this numerology of yours. That's because there is no revelation to see. But you can go on convincing yourself if you wish. The only person you'll be saying 'I told you so, but you wouldn't listen' to is the Lord. Good luck. You're gonna need it!

    Stephen
    Last edited by Stephen; 08-13-2007 at 03:39 AM.
    "And the watchman told, saying, 'The driving is like the driving of Jehu the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously'

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •