If you cannot love an eternal torment god

[rodgertutt]

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ho...al_vincent.htm
http://www.thetencommandmentsministr...hence_eternity
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/Time_13.html
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscella...rchFathers.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Doctr...etribution.htm

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.”
And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html

THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM

GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html

IN THE GARDEN
http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html

TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 71 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...ircularity.htm

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that deal with the many aspects of this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...orld/index.htm

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...ircularity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absol...us-Christ.html

This next url sums up the end result of all three
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...ircularity.htm

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...fFire-Eby.html

You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in
kolasis aionian

Also see
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...orld/index.htm

For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES

Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/inquire2.html
Also see
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible...Explained.html

Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

THE SCHOLARS CORNER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...orld/index.htm

http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/urqascriptureindex.htm

(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.
Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 71 years old.

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absol...us-Christ.html

POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

[rodgertutt]

CHURCH LEADERS WHO BELIEVED AND TAUGHT UNIVERSALISM DURING THE EARLIEST CENTURIES OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH

1. THE SIBYLLINE ORACLES – 150 A.D. – composed by Christian universalist writers
2. THE BASILIDIANS – 130 A.D.
3. THE CARPOCRATIANS – 140 A.D.
4. IRENAEUS -- 130A.D.
5. CLEMENS ALEXANDRIUS – 150 A.D.
6. THEOPHILUS – 169 A.D.
7. ORIGEN – 185 A.D.
8. GREGORY THAUMATURGUS – 220 A.D.
9. EUSEBIUS OF CAECAREA – 265 A.D.
10. ATHANASIUS – 296 A.D.
11. MARCELLUS OF ANCYRA – 315 A.D.
12. DIDYMUS OF ALEXANDRIA – 300 A.D.
13. GREGORY NYSSEN – 332 A.D.
14. HILLARY OF POICTIERS – 354 A.D.
15. ISADORE OF ALEXANDRIA – 370 A.D.
16. EVAGRIUS PONTICUS – 390 A.D.
17. AMBROSE OF MILAN – 339 A.D.
18. JEROME – 340 A.D.
19. TITUS OF BOSTRA – 340 A.D.
20. JOHN CASSIAN – 360 A.D.
21. DIODORE OF TARSUS – 370 A.D.
22. GREGORY OF NANZIANZUS – 370 A.D.
23. THEODORUS OF MOPSUESTIA – 380 A.D.
24. RUFINUS – 390 A.D.
25. THEODORET OF CYPRUS – 393 A.D.
26. THE MONKS OF NITRIA – 399 A.D.
27. PALLADIA OF GALLATIA – 400 A.D.
28. CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA – 412 A.D.
29. MAXIMUS OF TURIN – 422 A.D.
30. THE MONKS OF CESAREA IN PALESTINE - 430-450 A.D.
31. PETER CHRYSOLOGUS OF RAVENNA – 435 A.D.
32. GENNADIUS OF CONSTANTINOPLE – 458 A.D.
33. BARSUDAILI HIEROTHEUS – 490 A.D.
34. ALEXANDER OF ABYLA – 540 A.D.
35. MAXIMUS – 645 A.D.
36. CLEMENT OF IRELAND – 740 AD

Quotes by these Christian church leaders are recorded in Bob Evely’s book called
AT THE END OF THE AGES – THE ABOLITION OF HELL

[Richard Amiel McGough]

CHURCH LEADERS WHO BELIEVED AND TAUGHT UNIVERSALISM DURING THE EARLIEST CENTURIES OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH

1. THE SIBYLLINE ORACLES – 150 A.D. – composed by Christian universalist writers
2. THE BASILIDIANS – 130 A.D.
3. THE CARPOCRATIANS – 140 A.D.
4. IRENAEUS -- 130A.D.

...

Quotes by these Christian church leaders are recorded in Bob Evely’s book called
AT THE END OF THE AGES – THE ABOLITION OF HELL

Those quotes will have to be examined in context. I just checked the evidence for Irenaeus by previewing the book on Amazon, and found the evidence very weak. The book only mentions him once, and here is what he wrote:




Obviously, this is not sufficient evidence in and of itself that Irenaeous was a universalist. It all depends on what he meant by Christ "annulling everything evil." Granted, reason tells us that eternal conscious torment is the greatest of evils, but this point is denied by the proponents of that doctrine so it can not be used as "proof" against it without begging the question. I would be very interested if anyone can find a more explicit statement from him concerning the eternal fate of the wicked.

Richard

[rodgertutt]

Obviously, this is not sufficient evidence in and of itself that Irenaeous was a universalist. It all depends on what he meant by Christ "annulling everything evil." Richard

The rest of the quote is "and to reconcile again all things"
Only fallen creatures need reconciling.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

A close reading of Against Heresies, Book 3, Chpt 23 is needed to understand the quote above. It speaks in very universalist terms about the salvation of Adam as the head of all humanity. But there are a few statements that do not sound universalistic, such as his reference to the goats of Matt 25 that go into the eternal fire which was created not for man, but for the devil and his angels.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The rest of the quote is "and to reconcile again all things"
Only fallen creatures need reconciling.

Yes, but does that include the devil and his angels? I could not find anything in Book 3, Chapt 23 that made me think Irenaeus believed that.

[rodgertutt]

Yes, but does that include the devil and his angels? I could not find anything in Book 3, Chapt 23 that made me think Irenaeus believed that.

I think his statement speaks for itself
"and to reconcile again all things"

If there is other evidence that Irenaeus didn't mean what he said, then I wonder how he would justify saying it? Do you suppose he meant "all reconcilable things" only. I suppose that is possible.

Perhaps he believed like William Barclay believed.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during correctve chastisment) in Matthew 25:46

"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

If we perceive God Himself as the fire, it is of course eternal.
But the negative experience of being in that fire is eonian and corrective.
Irenaeus may have perceived it that way.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I think his statement speaks for itself
"and to reconcile again all things"

If there is other evidence that Irenaeus didn't mean what he said, then I wonder how he would justify saying it? Do you suppose he meant "all reconcilable things" only. I suppose that is possible.

Well, the reason I ask is because the folks who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) also say they believe Christ will "reconcile again all things." So I know that folks are not taking those words as "speaking for themselves."

I just wonder if we have any evidence of how Irenaeus understood the phrase "reconcile again all things." It seems possible he could have, like these other folks, held to the apparently contradictory belief in ECT even after Christ "reconciles all things."

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Perhaps he believed like William Barclay believed.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during correctve chastisment) in Matthew 25:46

"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

If we perceive God Himself as the fire, it is of course eternal.
But the negative experience of being in that fire is eonian and corrective.
Irenaeus may have perceived it that way.

That makes a lot of sense. But then again, Irenaeus does not always seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed, so he may not have had a proper understanding on this point.

[terraricca]

hi rodgertutt

you say you can not love a God;I’m 71 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined)

i agree with you i am 70 years old and ad my share of things;
but i have to be honest most of my problems were caused by me,because of my wants,
our needs are very small ,but we want more,and that's where the problem lays,
Christ says search first his kingdom but we do not we want to create our own kingdom and wen he falls apart we find ourselves humbled (some of us)and start to realise that there are more important things in live than money and goods and men made religion.

and if we have come to recognize that it is of God in our hearts who bring the best out ,and this to save us from ourselves if we only lessen,
this is a debt we can not repaid,for that reason we should love God with all our heart and with the fullest of our inner being ,as we learning his word,we can see all the things and ways ways he took to safe us and to bring us all back to him by the blood of his own son,

i believe people who do not respect the sacrifice what the son of god gives to save our lives,should not be declared good to live in God kingdom and that is what God says in scriptures.

who long is the punishment ?? it does not affect me i try to help people to understand the word of God and obey it ,that becomes there responsibility not mine,we all have to take full responsibility of our action,God forces no one to accept the sacrifice of his Son; Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son

you can freely love the father who help you to come and receive live,do not look for excuses not to ,he knows what he is doing,if you do not understand presently certain scriptures do not worry it will come to you,keep reading and the spirit of Christ will teach it to you.


regards


pierre