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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I think covenant creationism makes a lot of sense. I read "Beyond Creation Science" a couple months ago and was very impressed. From this point of view, Genesis is read like Revelation - a symbolic expression of the creation of God's Covenant people. I find a lot of support for this idea in the way that God laid out Genesis 1 in an obviously symbolic sevenfold pattern that is reiterated in the Menorah (central light of the Tabernacle), and then repeated throughout Scripture with its ultimate culmination in the manifold complex of sevens of Revelation.

    So from this perspective, there were billions of years of events before Genesis 1:1 in this physical universe, not to mention the infinity of events occurring in whatever other universes God created "before" this one. (I put "before" in quotes because the real meaning of time before this creation is ambiguous since time is defined for us only in this physical universe.)

    Richard
    A little off topic (sorry) but here is an interesting link regarding Adam and Israel. What's really interesting are the 100 or so comments that follow afterward. Jeffrey Vaughn interacts as well..

    This is the link.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post


    Ha! "One of them is not a nickel" is an ambiguous statement!

    I read it as "Not one of them is a nickel."

    Well done.

    It's a wonder we humans can understand each other at all.
    Here is one for that sibling or relative that always seems to hold the upper hand...

    Tell him that you are willing to have a game of checkers. All normal game rules stay in effect.

    Condition 1: You get qty 1 (one) checker only. It is not a king. It starts on the back row toward the center of the board. Your sibling/relative opponent gets the usual number of 12 checkers in the standard setup position.

    Condition 2: The person with the lonely checker moves first.

    You make an agreement as to what compensation will be attributed to you should you win the "challenge." This is the "challenge": You will STOP HIM FROM 'KINGING' ANY ONE OF HIS CHECKERS, i.e. he gets one of his checkers to your back row.

    I guarantee victory every time.

    Interested?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    Here is one for that sibling or relative that always seems to hold the upper hand...

    Tell him that you are willing to have a game of checkers. All normal game rules stay in effect.

    Condition 1: You get qty 1 (one) checker only. It is not a king. It starts on the back row toward the center of the board. Your sibling/relative opponent gets the usual number of 12 checkers in the standard setup position.

    Condition 2: The person with the lonely checker moves first.

    You make an agreement as to what compensation will be attributed to you should you win the "challenge." This is the "challenge": You will STOP HIM FROM 'KINGING' ANY ONE OF HIS CHECKERS, i.e. he gets one of his checkers to your back row.

    I guarantee victory every time.

    Interested?
    I'm interested enough to wanna figure it out for myself! Please to post the answer for a while.

    Edit to add: That's too easy! I just get in position where he must jump me or I can't move and the game ends before he gets any kings.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    Quack! Quack! Quack!

    Since I am a covenant creationist, I would be very interested in hearing what events occurred before creation (Genesis 1 & 2)...quackkkkkkk
    The "katabole"......the founding, the conception of the
    "kosmos"....ordered system.......
    is mentioned numerous times in the NT accounts.

    John 17:24 is a good example;


    John 17:24 (Young's Literal Translation)

    24`Father, those whom Thou hast given to me, I will that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory that Thou didst give to me, because Thou didst love me before the foundation of the world.
    --------------------------------------------------------

    Jesus' glory was given to Him by the Father before the "katabole" because He loved Him with a love existing before.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  5. #45
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    The end is in sight

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker1959 View Post
    That doesn't seem to be much of an exegesis Alec. It seems more like personal opinion. Where are the precise Scriptures that back up what you believe? Saying something does not make it so. I am sure you agree with that last statement.

    Newsflash: Maybe this present planet will not always be around, but you can be very assured that the "last days" (as preached by the VAST majority of futurists) do not refer to the planet. It is the church age that lasts forever (Ephesians 3:21).

    Since it was you who added this thought, may I ask you why you disagree that evil will never end? I am not looking for an opinion this time; I want the Scriptures you use and a brief explanation as to how they fit that particular paradigm...
    How can it possibly be a personal opinion when it is a statement of fact? In English usage 'the end' is invariably dependant on the context. The end of the road means that no further progress is possible. End of story usually means that further argument is futile. 'at the end of the day ' signifies the conclusion of the matter. 'At the end of my tether 'can mean that patience is exhausted. Such euphemisms are common as you well know. It is no different in scripture and so the question is dishonest. When I answered it , the goal posts moved. The bar was raised. The question was then asked 'Where are the precise scriptures to back up what you believe?. It is obvious that Daniel 11.45 'His end ' And Daniel 12.13 'the end of days' (the final judgement) are totally different in their meaning and content. I said that Daniel 11.35 indicated the end 70A.D Surely you won't deny that!. Now ,take a look at Daniel 11.41 Edom,Moab,Ammon. Then look at 11 45. And he will place his tents between the seas and the glorious holy mountain.. The plains of megiddo!. The valley of the passengers is adjacent. The similarities are inescapable . Now by your own standards ,show me from scripture where and when did this event take place.
    Alec

  6. #46
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    Now ,take a look at Daniel 11.41 Edom,Moab,Ammon. Then look at 11 45. And he will place his tents between the seas and the glorious holy mountain.. The plains of megiddo!. The valley of the passengers is adjacent. The similarities are inescapable . Now by your own standards ,show me from scripture where and when did this event take place.
    Alec
    There are many things in the Old Testament that we could suppose has yet to be fulfilled, BUT ONLY if we assume that these words are to be taken literally.

    This explains the Futurist problem with unfulfilled prophesies; and the list keeps growing and growing. I don't mean this as an insult, but a physical truth. The more literal one expects a prophesy to be fulfilled, the less these prophesies will seem to be unfulfilled. To me, this is nothing more than following the foot steps of the rebellious Jews of the first century, who reject that their Messiah has come, primarily because Elijah has yet to restore all things. And since Elijah has not yet come, then their Messiah was most certainly not Jesus.

    Should we follow their foot steps of blindness? For Elijah did come, in the body of John the Baptist....to him/her who is able to believe.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    There are many things in the Old Testament that we could suppose has yet to be fulfilled, BUT ONLY if we assume that these words are to be taken literally.

    This explains the Futurist problem with unfulfilled prophesies; and the list keeps growing and growing. I don't mean this as an insult, but a physical truth. The more literal one expects a prophesy to be fulfilled, the less these prophesies will seem to be unfulfilled. To me, this is nothing more than following the foot steps of the rebellious Jews of the first century, who reject that their Messiah has come, primarily because Elijah has yet to restore all things. And since Elijah has not yet come, then their Messiah was most certainly not Jesus.

    Should we follow their foot steps of blindness? For Elijah did come, in the body of John the Baptist....to him/her who is able to believe.

    Joe
    Well said, Joe. The over literalist (physical) fulfillment view of most futurists, and especially dispensationalists hinders greatly the understanding of Scripture. We have been fed Hellenism with the intent of digesting Hebrew dialogue. These are mismatches. We try to use contemporary dictionaries to define biblical idioms. We have attempted to use 21st century culture to exegete an ancient Eastern one. Some rather "upfront" examples are the "elements" being used as atomic molecules that hold the "universe" together, all the technological-related fulfillments for portions of revelation (barcode or some type of implant for the mark of the beast, Cobra attack helicopters for the locust, etc., etc., etc.

    We have long since moved away from a first century (and a much earlier OT) Hebrew Eastern cultural understanding into a strictly 21st century Western cultural understanding. The effects have been disastrous...

  8. #48
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    What is a covenant creationist.......in simple terms that even a duck could understand?

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    What is a covenant creationist.......in simple terms that even a duck could understand?

    Joel
    In "duck" language...

    Quack, quack qua qua qua ack ack qua ac ac qua qua ack ack quack...

    Which, when literally translated (taking into account the type of literature and from the culture it was written in), it means:

    "Here is the saying of proto-duck, otherwise known as IntroDuck, and here is his intro-offering: introDUCKtory article."
    Last edited by Edward Goodie; 03-14-2010 at 06:23 PM.

  10. #50
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    You guys are making me laugh!

    Anyways, what exactly is the "Last Days"? The last day of what? We've heard a few opinions as to what the last days are, and they seem to be narrowed down to two categories:

    1. End of the world (creation)
    2. End of geographical Israel (Daniel's people, temple, and city).

    Biblically, especially in the book of Daniel, there was only one "end" that was spoken of. This involved the famous seventy sevens:

    Daniel 9:

    24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city


    At the end (completion) of the seventy weeks, an end was proposed to the Holy City, and Daniel's people. This is confirmed with Jesus Himself stating:

    Luke 21:

    20 'But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


    This is also confirmed in the Gospel of Matthew:

    Matthew 24:

    15 'Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place' (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 'then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.


    The Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by the Prophet Daniel, would be confirmed to happen when they (Apostles) saw Jerusalem being surrounded by Armies.

    Jesus answer this question when the Apostles spoke to Him privately asking when the temple would be destroyed, and how would they know its Desolation was near. The answer? When they saw the armies surrounded Jerusalem, by that time, it would nearly be too late. Anyone leaving had better get moving quickly (as in soon) or they would find themselves trapped without escape. This event fits perfectly with the events of Sodom and Gomorrah; when Lot's wife turned one last time (symbolic of the Hebrews yearning for Egypt), she was instantly turned into a pillar of salt. The same with anyone turning back and yearning for Israel (geographical). It had become so sinful and evil that it's destruction could not be avoided.

    In conclusion, "The End" that scripture confirms is the end of Daniel's people, temple, and city. Where the idea of the end of the world came from is obvious; those who trap themselves with the 1611 King James version....bad mistake if you ask me.

    There are no scriptures supporting the end of the world teaching. It just isn't there, and it's sooooo non-scriptural.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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