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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by basilfo View Post
    Cheow,
    What 12 tribes? They are gone. And you would have to show me at least one verse in the NT where God grants any kind of special distinction to anyone who denies Christ was the Messiah. John called them "antichrist". And he didn't say: "unless you are Jewish".

    You are still coupling biblical Israel who entered into covenant with God, and modern day Israel who reject the new covenant and are antichrist by John's definition.

    Also, read the end of Joshua 21 to see if the "land promises" were fulfilled. I'm not sure, perhaps someone can expand on that as fulfillment.

    Peace to you,
    Dave
    Hi Dave,

    If you are talking about pure Jews, there are now very few in the world, yet in the land of Israel today is still divided over the 12 tribes of Israel, and many Jews today can trace their genealogy to one of the tribes. The land of Israel belongs to the Jews forever, this is the promise of God to Abraham by the covenant between God and Abraham.

    My personal definition of Jew is simple...as long as they have Jewish blood regardless if they inter-married with other races or not; a mixed Jew to me is still a partial Jew and they must be descended from Abraham. Are we not the descendants of Adam? Are not we the descendants of one of the sons of Noah even though we are of different races or of mixed blood? One of the reason why all human races can interbreed with one another probably suggests a single ancestor.

    Of course, God do not now grant special rights to people who are pure Jew. Any true Christian believer is now considered a pure "Jew".

    Many Blessings.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Hi Dave,

    If you are talking about pure Jews, there are now very few in the world, yet in the land of Israel today is still divided over the 12 tribes of Israel, and many Jews today can trace their genealogy to one of the tribes.

    Cheow,
    You continue to define someone as a "Jew" based on their geneology. This is opposite of NT teaching.

    What do you think Paul meant by "outwardly" in this verse?

    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who [is one] outwardly, nor [is] circumcision that which [is] outward in the flesh; 29 but [he is] a Jew who [is one] inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise [is] not from men but from God.

    If geneology counted, why did John the Baptist say this:

    Matt 3:9 "and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as [our] father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.


    My personal definition of Jew is simple...as long as they have Jewish blood regardless if they inter-married with other races or not; a mixed Jew to me is still a partial Jew and they must be descended from Abraham.
    Many Blessings
    "Your personal definition" is your opinion. Please don't confuse that with what Scripture says.

    Cheow says: "as long as they have Jewish blood....he must be descended from Abraham."
    John the Baptist says: "do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' "
    Paul says: "He is not a Jew who [is one] outwardly..."


    2+2=4
    You cannot say, "I see it a different way. 2+2=5"
    Last edited by basilfo; 03-22-2010 at 09:22 PM.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by basilfo View Post
    Cheow,
    You continue to define someone as a "Jew" based on their geneology. This is opposite of NT teaching.

    What do you think Paul meant by "outwardly" in this verse?

    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who [is one] outwardly, nor [is] circumcision that which [is] outward in the flesh; 29 but [he is] a Jew who [is one] inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise [is] not from men but from God.

    If geneology counted, why did John the Baptist say this:

    Matt 3:9 "and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as [our] father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.




    "Your personal definition" is your opinion. Please don't confuse that with what Scripture says.

    Cheow says: "as long as they have Jewish blood....he must be descended from Abraham."
    John the Baptist says: "do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' "
    Paul says: "He is not a Jew who [is one] outwardly..."


    2+2=4
    You cannot say, "I see it a different way. 2+2=5"
    Hi Dave,

    I understand perfectly what you are saying.
    Why didn't you read my last sentence, "of course, God do not now grant special rights to people who are pure Jew. Any true Christian believer is now considered a pure "Jew"?. That sums up what I believe is a Jew. It doesn't matter if one have Jewish blood or not, God don't see such distinction.

    My personal opinion is my own opinion.

    Hope this clarifies.

    Many Blessings.

  4. #84
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    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who [is one] outwardly, nor [is] circumcision that which [is] outward in the flesh; 29 but [he is] a Jew who [is one] inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise not from men but from God.

    Straight and to the point. A Jew is only defined by his inward status, and not his physical status. It is true that there were once Jews based on Tribal descent. But those days have long since vanished. Now days, and for the last several hundred years, to a thousand years, there is no such thing is a biological Jew from a Biblical perspective (Old and New Testament); they just don't exist. Now there are modern day Jews defined by geographical birth. However, there's a difference between modern day Jews by geographical birth, vs Jews by Tribe...A HUGE difference. Modern day biological Jews are not biblical; hence, the only thing they carry is a name, but not a biblical name.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who [is one] outwardly, nor [is] circumcision that which [is] outward in the flesh; 29 but [he is] a Jew who [is one] inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise not from men but from God.

    Straight and to the point. A Jew is only defined by his inward status, and not his physical status. It is true that there were once Jews based on Tribal descent. But those days have long since vanished. Now days, and for the last several hundred years, to a thousand years, there is no such thing is a biological Jew from a Biblical perspective (Old and New Testament); they just don't exist. Now there are modern day Jews defined by geographical birth. However, there's a difference between modern day Jews by geographical birth, vs Jews by Tribe...A HUGE difference. Modern day biological Jews are not biblical; hence, the only thing they carry is a name, but not a biblical name.

    Joe
    I think people would be very surprised to find out where the word "Jew" or "Jews" is FIRST mentioned in the Bible!
    Last edited by Edward Goodie; 03-23-2010 at 08:55 PM.

  6. #86
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    You're right TS. Another major problem and source of poor hermeneutics which leads to contorted eschatological views is the confusion of the Biblical definition of a "Jew" and/or "Israel" and the layman's/secular definition of these terms. They are miles apart.

    The eschatology gets twisted when trying to force the layman's Jew into prophecies in Scripture pertaining to Israel.

  7. #87
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    I think people would be very surprised to find out where the word "Jew" or "Jews" is FIRST mentioned in the Bible!
    Just for fun, I did a search and found this:

    Esther 2:5
    In Shushan the citadel there was a certain Jew whose name was Mordecai the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite.

    If I'm not mistaken, this Jew came from the Tribe of Benjamine...but I could be wrong.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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