The Last days, etc.

[Edward Goodie]

May I have our resident futurists (those who do not believe in THE past Parousia) to describe exactly what is meant by the following:

"Time of the end" (Daniel 8:17; 11:35,40; 12:4,9)

"last days" (Genesis 49:1; Isaiah 2:2; Micah 4:1; Acts 2:17; 2 Timothy 3:1; Hebrews 1:2; James 5:3; 2 Peter 3:3)

"latter days" (Numbers 24:14; Deuteronomy 4:30; 31:29; Jeremiah 23:20; 30:24; 48:47; 49:39; Ezekiel 38:16; Daniel 2:28; 10:14; Hosea 3:5)

"last time" (1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 2:18; Jude 1:18)

"end of the world" (Matthew 13:39,49; 24:3; 24:14; 28:20; 1 Cor 10:11; Hebrews 9:26)

and whether they believe these events from the above phrases point to the same climax. I believe it is essential when discussing "eschatology" to understand exactly WHAT eschatology.

Thanks. I think settling this issue is of prime importance because there is no use in discussing anything else concerning eschatology if we can't even agree on WHAT eschatology we are talking about. First things first.

[CWH]

Hi Truthseeker,

There is really no point debating on the last days. We may debate until the sky fall down and still back to square one. In fact, we have been debating here and in other forums on the same topic without much progress. At the end of the day, preterists will still insist that the last days refer to AD 70 and futurists will insist that it refers to the end of the world followed by a new heaven and a new earth. Some may believe in both in dual fulfillments. It's almost impossible to change leopard's spots. Perhaps, this is God's way to ensure that no denomination and theology can dominate others to claim that theirs is the one and only true religion and everyone else is false. We may have the Holy Spirit but no one is given the Holy Spirit to interpret scriptures 100% accurately. Therefore, no one is absolutely right in their interpretation of the scriptures. We just have to respect each other beliefs till one day the truth will be known. This is a way to prevent pride and false claims and that God wanted us to work together to come to the truth. It is very difficult and there are many obstacles to overcome but one day the truth will be known. Jesus would have told us plainly but He did many of His sayings symbolically and in parables for this obvious reason....Dig in and find the truth! We may debate heatedly but the comfortable thing is that at the end of the day, all of us believe in John 3:16.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Does anyone here don't believe in John 3:16? I would be very concerned.

Many Blessings.

[Edward Goodie]

Hi Truthseeker,

There is really no point debating on the last days. We may debate until the sky fall down and still back to square one. In fact, we have been debating here and in other forums on the same topic without much progress. At the end of the day, preterists will still insist that the last days refer to AD 70 and futurists will insist that it refers to the end of the world followed by a new heaven and a new earth. Some may believe in both in dual fulfillments. It's almost impossible to change leopard's spots. Perhaps, this is God's way to ensure that no denomination and theology can dominate others to claim that theirs is the one and only true religion and everyone else is false. We may have the Holy Spirit but no one is given the Holy Spirit to interpret scriptures 100% accurately. Therefore, no one is absolutely right in their interpretation of the scriptures. We just have to respect each other beliefs till one day the truth will be known. This is a way to prevent pride and false claims and that God wanted us to work together to come to the truth. It is very difficult and there are many obstacles to overcome but one day the truth will be known. Jesus would have told us plainly but He did many of His sayings symbolically and in parables for this obvious reason....Dig in and find the truth! We may debate heatedly but the comfortable thing is that at the end of the day, all of us believe in John 3:16.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Does anyone here don't believe in John 3:16? I would be very concerned.

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

The reason I started this thread in this manner is to discuss verse by verse each paradigm. To me, there is quite a bit of difference between and end of "planet" and of "old covenant economy." These differences "should" be easily ferreted out...

Here is just one example along these lines...

Matthew 24:3 speaks of the "end of the world" in many Bibles; for others it is the "end of the age." I am curious as to how the disciples would have learned about the end of the planet in relation to the context - the context being Matthew 23 and the beratement of the Pharisses and temple doom and Matthew 24:1-2 about not one stone being left in regard to the temple. I don't see anything planetary here at all. It is, to me, all about the old covenant system with the temple at its central core. This "world" had been ongoing for almost 1600 years and was quickly coming to an end. Where would the disciples have gotten the idea of planetary destruction?
That is my question to you and anyone who would like to take a stab with Scripture for support...


And if the Holy Spirit's initial purpose as given to the apostle's was not to impart perfect 100% truth, then what is Truth?

[TheForgiven]

There are no scriptures supporting an "end of the planet" theory. That theory was based on the mistranslation of the King James scholars.

Matthew 24:

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Anyone who chooses to believe the word "world" to be correct will find that they represent the EXTREME minority in this translation.

Young's Literal Translation reads:

3And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

I don't see "world" in that verse. This is one of many reasons why some prefer reading from the 1611 King James Bible; they are relying a translation that's filled with errors; even for their standard of time.

I may sound harsh, but to me, the 1611 King James Bible was a terrible translation and deserves to be discarded. I know that it's a time honored tradition to read from the King James Bible, but when we consider that the scholars then had very limited resources to write an accurately translated English Bible (or even the know-how), logic alone would suggest that we not put so much emphasis on a poorly translated book; especially when it was not a word-for-word translation where possible; some words were used that were not part of the original text.

Oops! Changed the subject.

Anyways, there is not a single verse stating that the world will end; that's just Futurist's Hollywood Jargon and money making propaganda. Look what happened when the movie 2012 came out. I saw this movie a few days ago on DVD, and it amazes me how many people are taught the worlds destruction WITHOUT even being a Christian. Thus, when they become a Christian, they combine their prior ideas of the world ending with their new found Christianity. Hence the course of Futurism. Been there, done that! And I'm glad I'm far away from it. Why lose your soul to a pack of failed predictions spanning more than a thousand years? Is prophesy all about guesses and mistakes?

Joe

[Elect Lady]

There are no scriptures supporting an "end of the planet" theory. That theory was based on the mistranslation of the King James scholars.

Matthew 24:

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Anyone who chooses to believe the word "world" to be correct will find that they represent the EXTREME minority in this translation.

Young's Literal Translation reads:

3And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

I don't see "world" in that verse. This is one of many reasons why some prefer reading from the 1611 King James Bible; they are relying a translation that's filled with errors; even for their standard of time.

I may sound harsh, but to me, the 1611 King James Bible was a terrible translation and deserves to be discarded. I know that it's a time honored tradition to read from the King James Bible, but when we consider that the scholars then had very limited resources to write an accurately translated English Bible (or even the know-how), logic alone would suggest that we not put so much emphasis on a poorly translated book; especially when it was not a word-for-word translation where possible; some words were used that were not part of the original text.

Oops! Changed the subject.

Anyways, there is not a single verse stating that the world will end; that's just Futurist's Hollywood Jargon and money making propaganda. Look what happened when the movie 2012 came out. I saw this movie a few days ago on DVD, and it amazes me how many people are taught the worlds destruction WITHOUT even being a Christian. Thus, when they become a Christian, they combine their prior ideas of the world ending with their new found Christianity. Hence the course of Futurism. Been there, done that! And I'm glad I'm far away from it. Why lose your soul to a pack of failed predictions spanning more than a thousand years? Is prophesy all about guesses and mistakes?

Joe

Hi Joe,

You're right, the scriptures does not support an end of the planet theory, to the contrary scripture say ..."Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages world 'without' end." Ephesians 3:21

Elect Lady

[Edward Goodie]

Hi Joe,

You're right, the scriptures does not support an end of the planet theory, to the contrary scripture say ..."Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages world 'without' end." Ephesians 3:21

Elect Lady

Ephesians 3:21 is often used to teach the never ending existence of planet earth. That concept is in error. The word "world" in that verse is referring to the church just as the tongue is referred to a "world" of iniquity in James 3:6. It is the church "age" that is given the never ending status. Sad to say, but I have read a few preterist books that have used Eph 3:21 as a "proof text" to show that the planet will not end. They are wrong...

Young's literal translation: Eph 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

The Greek: ...τας γενεας του αιωνος των αιωνων αμην

[TheForgiven]

Ephesians 3:21 is often used to teach the never ending existence of planet earth. That concept is in error. The word "world" in that verse is referring to the church just as the tongue is referred to a "world" of iniquity in James 3:6. It is the church "age" that is given the never ending status. Sad to say, but I have read a few preterist books that have used Eph 3:21 as a "proof text" to show that the planet will not end. They are wrong...

Young's literal translation: Eph 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

The Greek: ...τας γενεας του αιωνος των αιωνων αμην

That's a good point. I never actually examined this verse to arrive at the conclusion Paul was talking about the eternity of the earth.

Ephesians 3:

20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

The NKJV Bible has a different reading as opposed to the 1611 King James Bible.

Ephesians 3:21 1611 King James Bible:

20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

As you can clearly see, this is another example of the fallacious 1611 King James Bible. I proudly state that I detest this Bible as one of the worst Bible translations in English history. If anyone MUST have the archaic language, then they may want to consider reading the 21st Century King James Bible which corrects the errors from the 1611 version. Here's Ephesians 3:21 from the 21st Century King James Bible:

20 Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

As you can see, the 21st Century Edition King James Bible is a much better translation than the 1611 version filled with errors. I prefer the natural English of the New King James Bible, and the much better translated Modern King James Bible (unavailable in stores as of yet) as opposed to the 1611 KJV.

At any rate, the 1611 KJV doesn't provide any idea of an ending world, but actually solidifies the Preterist position of a non-ending age of Christianity.

Joe

[Elect Lady]

Ephesians 3:21 is often used to teach the never ending existence of planet earth. That concept is in error. The word "world" in that verse is referring to the church just as the tongue is referred to a "world" of iniquity in James 3:6. It is the church "age" that is given the never ending status. Sad to say, but I have read a few preterist books that have used Eph 3:21 as a "proof text" to show that the planet will not end. They are wrong...

Young's literal translation: Eph 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

The Greek: ...τας γενεας του αιωνος των αιωνων αμην

Hi TruthSeeker,

I stand corrected! Thank you!

Elect Lady

[Edward Goodie]

Hi TruthSeeker,

I stand corrected! Thank you!

Elect Lady

Many preterists have had this mistaken view. Interestingly enough, many of these same preterists have either left preterism or gone on to establish their own view, as in preterist-idealism. John Noe, in his book "Beyond the End Times," had taken this view as well. He has since publicly announced his agreement with preterist-idealism...

As one well-known character of a cops show once said on numerous occasions, "Hey! Let's be careful out there."

I also apologize in advance for when I will be wrong...

[joel]

Truthseeker......we have hashed out the last day issue plenty, and will probably continue until the last days actually arrive.....

But, I have a related question......what season are we in?

Joel