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  1. #1

    Rom 3:31 What law is being 'established'.

    What Law is being 'established' in the second part of verse 31.
    4Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

    28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

    30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

    2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

    3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.(because the debt has not been paid)

    5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

    10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

    11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

    12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

    13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

    15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 10:4

    16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    I believe it is primarily establishing the law of righteousness and justification by faith (and circumcised heart). This was called the 'law of faith' in vs 27. And I believe it may have also been talking of establishing the counter principle of the disapproval and wrath of seeking blessings by works and/or law. Rom 4:4,14 (above) 2 cor 3
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 02-24-2010 at 10:45 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  2. #2
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    Long arm short sight

    Quote

    I believe it is primarily establishing the law of righteousness and justification by faith (and circumcised heart). This was called the 'law of faith' in vs 27. And I believe it may have also been talking of establishing the counter principle of the disapproval and wrath of seeking blessings by works and/or law. Rom 4:4,14 (above) 2 cor 3
    _

    That statement of itself is just as true as it is meaningless . The qoutations are perfectly in order but
    unless they are explained they might as well be written in Swahili It begs the question :What is righteousness? .What is sin?. To understand any of it we must go back to basics, In any society or community there must be a set standard. It is imperitive. In the Kingdom of God there is only one standard and that is the ten commandments delivered to Moses. They are written in stone They cannot be altered or erased. Jesus issued the commandment : 'Be perfect' and the standard ! 'Even as your father in heaven is perfect' Everybody falls short of that standard so all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Adam's sin was the acquisition of a conscience. The conscience is not an infallible guide. It is a faculty. We condition our conscience and when we go against that conditioning it reminds us in a most unpleasant way. To calibrate our conscience we need a standard. The ONLY reliable standard is the law of God. I often hear the quotqation : If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you will be saved. The quote usually ends there which is a deception. The important part is ----for with the heart man believes unto righteousness..What is righteousness but obedience to the law. There are various levels of reward for works done in the flesh and various degrees of punishmen for sin in the unseen state. This is readily seen in the statement by the master . Anyone who breaks the least of these (ten) commandments and teaches men so , shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven . Those who did not know the master's will and did thing worthy of stripes will be given a few stripes but he who new his master's will and did not do it will given many stripes. That flies in the face of the one size fits all doctrine. It has been confidently said on this forum that sinners will be outside the new Jerusalem and all that they have to do is repent and enter end drink of the living water. On the other hand it has been strongly asserted that the souls are obliterated. Of course no soul can be tormented day and night if that soul is none existent.. and if that soul is destroyed it is incapable of repentance or of drinking of the living water . Now is the accepted time. Redemption and salvation are the result of faith. Rewards are given for works.
    Alec_________________

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by alec cotton View Post
    Quote

    I believe it is primarily establishing the law of righteousness and justification by faith (and circumcised heart). This was called the 'law of faith' in vs 27. And I believe it may have also been talking of establishing the counter principle of the disapproval and wrath of seeking blessings by works and/or law. Rom 4:4,14 (above) 2 cor 3
    _

    That statement of itself is just as true as it is meaningless . The qoutations are perfectly in order but
    unless they are explained they might as well be written in Swahili

    It begs the question :What is righteousness? .What is sin?. To understand any of it we must go back to basics, In any society or community there must be a set standard. It is imperitive. In the Kingdom of God there is only one standard and that is the ten commandments delivered to Moses. They are written in stone They cannot be altered or erased. Jesus issued the commandment : “Be perfect” and the standard ! “Even as your father in heaven is perfect” Everybody falls short of that standard so all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Adam's sin was the acquisition of a conscience. The conscience is not an infallible guide. It is a faculty. We condition our conscience and when we go against that conditioning it reminds us in a most unpleasant way. To calibrate our conscience we need a standard. The ONLY reliable standard is the law of God. I often hear the quotqation :

    The important part is ----for with the heart man believes unto righteousness..What is righteousness but obedience to the law.

    . Anyone who breaks the least of these (ten) commandments and teaches men so , shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven .
    Alec_________________
    Thanks for the response. I disagree with these perspectives which is why I posted the question.

    The point is that righteousness is established apart from the law through faith. This IS the Gospel and Good News and this is what these passages are saying. The 10 commandments are mostly stated in negativity and keeping a negative commandment is not counted for righteousness. By removing the negative commandment and it's fear of wrath; one can proceed in positive Life and love.

    3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (because the debt has not been paid)
    5But to him that worketh not [the deeds of the mosaic law], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. WHAT DID HE JUST SAY???
    6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Anyone who breaks the least of these (ten) commandments and teaches men so , shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven .
    There is a context to these statements that is sometimes missed. He was not referring to only the law of the 10 commandments. Paul includes those in the administration of death in 2 Cor 3 and is said to worketh wrath in Rom 4:15. Part of his God's coming to fulfill the law was to fulfill its ending and to expose its inadequacies and inferiorities, but enacting the superior law of justification by faith.
    17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (The 10 commandments are not specifically mentioned; except as part of the law)
    19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    Romans 3 and 4 is not talking of corporal/national or societal righteousness; It's talking about being righteous by grace through faith unto forgiveness of sin for entrance into the kingdom of God.

    26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

    27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

    29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    Thus, again, the law being established in verse 31 is referring to the Law of Justification by faith that is mentioned directly preceding it and called the "law of faith" in vs 27. It's the law of faith delivered to Abraham, and the Patriarchs but not the law delivered through Moses.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 06-27-2011 at 01:41 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  4. #4

    Bump

    Anyone else:? What law is Paul referring to and that is being established in Romans 3:31?

    31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32 View Post
    Anyone else:? What law is Paul referring to and that is being established in Romans 3:31?
    That makes sense to me. The question "by what law?" is asked, and then answered "By the law of faith." What law then is established by faith? I think there is a deliberate play on words here. The Law of Faith is revealed as the true Law of God whereas the "Law of Works" written on stone tablets was a mere shadow of it:
    Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    This is why Scripture declares that the New Covenant would be written on our living hearts, not on dead stone tablets:
    Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    Paul confirms that this prophecy is fulfilled in the Church:
    2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
    I see an ubiquitous beauty of supernatural harmony and mutual confirmation running throughout the entire Bible.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    What about James 2, faith without deed is dead:

    14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
    18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

    19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

    25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


    What about the Lord said in Matthew 7:
    " 21Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven". Doesn't all these tell us that faith without works is dead?

    Many Blessings.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    What about James 2, faith without deed is dead:

    14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
    18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

    19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

    25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


    What about the Lord said in Matthew 7:
    " 21Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven". Doesn't all these tell us that faith without works is dead?

    Many Blessings.
    Those are very important verses Cheow. They show that merely saying you have faith is not the same as really being faithful!

    Works are to faith as fruit to a living tree.

    It is easy to do works without faith. For example, a person might walk around saying long prayers in public but in truth he has no faith at all and is merely pretending to be faithful to gain status in society. Indeed, a person could perform all the works demanded by the law, but if he is not doing them in faithfulness to God, his obedience means nothing. I think this is what Paul was talking about here:
    Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    What about James 2, faith without deed is dead:

    14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
    18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

    19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

    25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


    What about the Lord said in Matthew 7:
    " 21Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven". Doesn't all these tell us that faith without works is dead?

    Many Blessings.
    It's interesting and important to note that the 'work' that Abraham was to do was not a work of law, but an action in response to his faith of having heard God and being willing to allow God to prove himself. Like Noah' work would have been building the ark; it was a work of faith, not 'work' of law.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  9. #9
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    ""17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.""

    For one thing, the law is forever for those who are under the law.
    For those who are under grace there is no law.

    For another thing the law is not to be changed because it leads us to Christ and the way it does that is by painting us into a corner to where we must admit to ourselves that it cannot and has never been kept in it's entirety.

    For the third thing Jesus said above that would fulfill the law which he did on the cross. He did that by dying,..paying the price for us who were guilty of breaking the law.
    "..till all be fulfilled."
    " I am not come to destroy but to fulfill."

    Everything changes when you are under grace.
    The circumcision and the ten commandments are covenants, not laws. They are prophecy.
    Moses wrote of Jesus and of how Jesus would affect our lives and minds.

    A person who is under the law sees only rules and regulations
    A person who is under grace sees promises while reading the same words.

    That is true circumcision.

    When we believe that every jot and tittle changes because it has already been fulfilled at the cross.

    "It is finished."

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    ""17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.""

    For one thing, the law is forever for those who are under the law.
    For those who are under grace there is no law.

    For another thing the law is not to be changed because it leads us to Christ and the way it does that is by painting us into a corner to where we must admit to ourselves that it cannot and has never been kept in it's entirety.

    For the third thing Jesus said above that would fulfill the law which he did on the cross. He did that by dying,..paying the price for us who were guilty of breaking the law.
    "..till all be fulfilled."
    " I am not come to destroy but to fulfill."

    Everything changes when you are under grace.
    The circumcision and the ten commandments are covenants, not laws. They are prophecy.
    Moses wrote of Jesus and of how Jesus would affect our lives and minds.

    A person who is under the law sees only rules and regulations
    A person who is under grace sees promises while reading the same words.

    That is true circumcision.

    When we believe that every jot and tittle changes because it has already been fulfilled at the cross.

    "It is finished."
    Hi Bob;
    Thanks for the interaction.
    I agreee with many of your points and like how some of them are worded. One under law sees rules and regulations and some or many of our churches have indeed been judaized into seeking conditional obedience to Pauls instructions as if it were a new administrative LAW to retain corporal blessing.


    However, I'd like to add some things for your consideration.
    In Deut 29:1 and 5:2,3, the law is the complete set of rules to be performed in order for the group of people to maintain a corporal blessing in that land. It included the commandments, the sacrificial system, the promise of judgment, destruction, it's end and so forth.

    Included in that law were the prophecies of it's blessing, cursing, (Deut 29) replacement of the law through circumcision of the heart/forgiveness/Love, indwelling God (Duet 30) and then the end and latter end wrath upon those who wanted a 'religion'. (Deut 32) The 'nation' of corporal Israel was formed around this law. (Duet 27:9)

    I think Jesus was proclaiming to those who heard him that he had not come to abolish the negative witness of the mosaic law, (and thus to perpetuate the corruption, the sickness, the crying and the nation) but to fulfill it including it's 'latter ends'. Until the heavens of the skys above Sinai and the earth of the mosaic covenant land (passed away) not one jot nor title of the law of moses would be abrogated. They of that generation likely knew what was prophesied, but likely put their heads in the sand and their faith in being descendants of Abraham and/or faith in the Rabbi's interpretations or succombed to their oppression.

    That Heavens (the administration thereof) and that earth of the domain of the mosaic covenant laws HAVE passed away and the mosaic covenant of Deut including it's 'latter end' has been fulfilled. There is no longer a possibility of going back to that law to seek corporal blessing of that nation or in that land and there is no longer any nation blessed even temporally by God under that administration.

    As noted in Deut 29:1, the 10 commandments were part of that law and most were stated in the negative. To break one, was to break the whole law of moses for it's stated intentions. Through recieving a GOOD, Loving GOD and Jesus as his incarnation into ones' life, the change of heart takes place enabling one to begin to Love God from the heart and fulfill commandment #1 in the positive. Jesus added the commandment to use his examples of Love, to love others. "Love others as I have loved you".

    Awhile ago, we here on this board (I think) did a little research about weather there was any basis and foundation to believe that the Heavens were the administrative laws of God and the 'earth' was the domain of that administration.
    Surely enough in Job, we found that very proclaimaition.

    Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

    Heaven here is described as the source of ordinances while 'earth' is the dominon of those ordinances.

    The 'heavens' of the mosaic covenant (of Duet) were related to Mt Sinai (and egypt)(which Paul confirms in Gal 4) while the earth of the mosaic covenant was the territorial dominion to which the conditional and perpetually unobtainable blessings of those laws applied and to that nation formed around that covenant (Duet 27:9).

    The indwelling Holy Spirit of Jesus the Messiah as God in flesh, His teachings, his sealing stamp of unconditional acceptance and approval and other principles and ordinances of Life and Love are the 'new heavens' of the new covenant while the temple of the body (individual and corporal) are the dominion and 'new earth' of the new covenant. The indwelling of God in the heart was promised in Deut 30 after (not said how long after) they would return from babylonian captivity.

    This is why the 'body' of believing Jews had to cross back over the jordan into the wildernaess (Pella) and outside the mosaic covenant land. The "heaven and "earth" of the mosaic covenant temple (representing laws from Sinai) to be burned up with fire and consumed/destroyed. The "new" heavens and new earth of the corporal body of Christ of the New Covenant was being delivered. (through a 40 yr process)

    It is also why I believe, Moses secured his own preference to remain outside the deuteronomic covenant and it's land by 'addressing' the rock twice; signifying his alliance with the people of the latter blessing of faith/grace. This is also represented symbolically by the blessing to Isaac, not Ishmael, Jacob, not Esau, Ephraim, not Mannassah.... even Abraham....not Nimrod of his attempt at counterfiet religion and corporal rule.

    God put it this way about Moses: because he chose not to glorify Him in (and partake of) the mosaic covenant administration as displayed by the manner of his striking the rock, he would be buried before crossing Jordan. Much is said that Moses struck the rock rather than 'spoke to' the rock, and imply that God 'punished' him for it; but "striking" the rock (Christ/God) is the same as "addressing" the Rock or 'Speaking to" the Rock. Moses 'spoke to' or addressed the Rock the second time signifying his preference of the glory of the second peoples of all nations,tongues, languages of the forever and perpetual covenant of Mercy.

    Thus, Moses wasn't even a partaker of the mosaic covenant, just as Israel, the individual, was not of the "nation" of Israel of the Mosaic covneant.

    Paul is careful to glorify God in his purposes of the inferior way of the mosaic covenant (Hebrews; 2 Cor 3) even while calling it the administration of death.

    The futurists who insist (like 2 spirits) on literal/physical meanings of the words heaven/earth and insist on a restoration of the Creation have trouble with this and with the fulfillment of new heaven/earth passages of the OT prophets such as Isaiah 65,66 and Rev 20-22.

    Thanks again for your insights.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 08-09-2010 at 01:40 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

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