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  1. #11
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    Here's a story posted on the web from a forum but the poster failed to provide a link. I'll post the entire story of St. John's banishment by Nero Caesar, and the link where I obtained this story. If I'm not mistaken, this story is taken from a Catholic encyclopedia.

    Enjoy reading it....sounds very compelling and quite true.

    The Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Theologian was the son of Zebedee and Salomia -- a daughter of Saint Joseph the Betrothed. Together at the same time with his elder brother James, he was called by our Lord Jesus Christ to be numbered amongst His Apostles, which took place at Lake Gennesareth (i.e. the Sea of Galilee). Leaving behind their father, both brothers followed the Lord.

    The Apostle John was especially beloved by the Saviour for his sacrificial love and his virginal purity. After his calling, the Apostle John did not part from the Lord, and he was one of the three apostles, who were particularly close to Him. Saint John the Theologian was present when the Lord resuscitated to life the daughter of Jairus, and he was a witness to the Transfiguration of the Lord on Mount Tabor. During the time of the Last Supper, he reclined next to the Lord, and at a gesture from the Apostle Peter, he pressed nigh to the bosom of the Saviour and asked the name of the betrayer. The Apostle John followed after the Lord, when they led Him bound from the Garden of Gethsemane to the court of the iniquitous high-priests Annas and Caiphas. He was there in the courtyard of the high-priest during the interrogations of his Divine Teacher and he resolutely followed after him on the way of the Cross, grieving with all his heart. At the foot of the Cross he went together with the Mother of God and heard addressed to Her from atop the Cross the words of the Crucified Lord: "Woman, behold Thy son" and to him "Behold thy Mother" (Jn 19:26-27). And from that moment the Apostle John, like a loving son, concerned himself over the MostHoly Virgin Mary, and he served Her until Her Dormition ["Falling-Asleep" or "Uspenie"], never leaving Jerusalem. After the Dormition of the Mother of God the Apostle John, in accord with the lot that had befallen him, set off to Ephesus and other cities of Asia Minor to preach the Gospel, taking with him his own disciple Prokhoros. They set off upon their on a ship, which floundered during the time of a terrible tempest. All the travellers were cast up upon dry ground, and only the Apostle John remained in the depths of the sea. Prokhoros wept bitterly, bereft of his spiritual father and guide, and he went on towards Ephesus alone. On the fourteenth day of his journey he stood at the shore of the sea and beheld, that the waves had cast ashore a man. Going up to him, he recognised the Apostle John, whom the Lord had preserved alive for fourteen days in the deeps of the sea. Teacher and student set off to Ephesus, where the Apostle John preached incessantly to the pagans about Christ. His preaching was accompanied by numerous and great miracles, such that the number of believers increased with each day. During this time there had begun a persecution against Christians under the emperor Nero (56-68). They took away the Apostle John for trial at Rome. The Apostle John was sentenced to death for his confession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, but the Lord preserved His chosen one. The apostle drank out of a cup prepared for him with deadly poison but he remained alive, and later he emerged unharmed from a cauldron of boiling oil, into which he had been thrown on orders from the torturer. After this, they sent the Apostle John off to imprisonment to the island of Patmos, where he spent many years. Proceeding along on his way to the place of exile, the Apostle John worked many miracles. On the island of Patmos, his preaching accompanied by miracles attracted to him all the inhabitants of the island, and he enlightened them with the light of the Gospel. He cast out many a devil from the pagan-idol temples, and he healed a great multitude of the sick. Sorcerer-magicians with diverse demonic powers showed great hostility to the preaching of the holy apostle. He gave especial fright to the chief sorcerer of them all, named Kinops, who boasted that they would destroy the apostle. But the great John -- the Son of Thunder, as the Lord Himself had named him, and by the grace of God acting through him -- destroyed all the demonic artifices to which Kinops resorted, and the haughty sorcerer perished exhausted in the depths of the sea.

    The Apostle John withdrew with his disciple Prokhoros to a desolate height, where he imposed upon himself a three-day fast. During the time of the Apostle John's prayer the earth quaked and thunder boomed. Prokhoros in fright fell to the ground. The Apostle John lifted him up and bid him to write down, that which he was to speak. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord, Which is and Which was and Which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev 1:8) -- proclaimed the Spirit of God through the Apostle John. Thus in about the year 67 was written the Book of Revelation ["Otkrovenie", known also as the "Apocalypse"] of the holy Apostle John the Theologian. In this Book was a revealing of the tribulations of the Church and of the end of the world.

    After his prolonged exile, the Apostle John received his freedom and returned to Ephesus, where he continued with his activity, instructing Christians to guard against false-teachers and their false-teachings. In about the year 95, the Apostle John wrote his Gospel at Ephesus. He called for all Christians to love the Lord and one another, and by this to fulfill the commands of Christ. The Church entitles Saint John the "Apostle of Love", since he constantly taught, that without love man cannot come nigh to God. In his three Epistles, written by the Apostle John, he speaks about the significance of love for God and for neighbour. Already in his old age, and having learned of a youth who had strayed from the true path to begin following the leader of a band of robbers, the Apostle John went out into the wilderness to seek him. Catching sight of the holy elder, the culprit tried to hide himself, but the Apostle John ran after him and besought him to stop, and promising to take the sins of the youth upon himself, if only he should but repent and not bring ruination upon his soul. Shaken by the intense love of the holy elder, the youth actually did repent and turn his life around.

    The holy Apostle John died at more than an hundred years old. he far out-lived the other remaining eye-witnesses of the Lord, and for a long time he remained the sole remaining eye-witness of the earthly paths of the Saviour.


    Link: http://www.biblemaster.com/qanda/dis...1&ThreadPage=1

    I hope it's not laced with spyware or anything, so brother Richard please ensure that the link is a clean link.

    Thanks.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  2. #12
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    Let's look ay another view so as to be less bias which I found from an internet side, Happy reading:

    The writing of the Revelation of Jesus Christ has been traditionally assigned to around AD 96. Because this date does not fit into their theological scheme, Full Preterists, who claim that all of Bible prophesy was fulfilled in AD 70, argue for an earlier dating of the book, prior to AD 70.

    However, the testimony of the Church Fathers is that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written by John near the end of the reign of Domitian in AD 96. According to them, John was banished by Domitian to the lonely Isle of Patmos, a desolate Greek island in the Aegean Sea only 11 square miles in area. Victorinus, in his Commentary on the Apocolypse of the Blessed John, recorded that John labored in the mines of Patmos.

    Domitian was a particularly cruel and ostentatious Roman emperor, who reigned from AD 81 - 96. He regularly arrested, imprisoned, and executed his enemies, even Roman noblemen and senators, and confiscated their properties for his own use. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, "The years 93-96 were regarded as a period of terror hitherto unsurpassed."

    The Britannica also informs us that 'A grave source of offense was his insistence on being addressed as dominus et deus (Ďmaster and godí).' Perhaps this aroused in Domitian a hatred of faithful Christians, who would have refused him this demand. Domitian did in fact launch a persecution of Christians. In Book three, chapter 17 of his Ecclesiastical History, Eusebius writes,

    Domitian, having shown great cruelty toward many, and having unjustly put to death no small number of well-born and notable men at Rome, and having without cause exiled and confiscated the property of a great many other illustrious men, finally became a successor of Nero in his hatred and enmity toward God. He was in fact the second that stirred up a persecution against us, although his father Vespasian had undertaken nothing prejudicial to us.

    Justin Martyr (b.100 AD, d.165 AD) is an early Christian writer who also testifies to this persecution. However, according to Justin, Domitian was somewhat more restrained than Nero had been in his persecution of Christians. In his Apology, Justin wrote:

    Domitian, too, a man of Nero's type in cruelty, tried his hand at persecution, but as he had something of the human in him, he soon put an end to what he had begun, even restoring again those whom he had banished.

    According to the Church fathers, the Apostle John was not among those released, but even if he had been, the fact that Domitian's reign did not begin until AD 81 means that the Revelation must have been written after that date.

    Domitian was so hated for his excesses that own wife participated in the plot to assassinate him. Upon his death, his successor, Nerva, reversed many of the cruel judgments of Domitian, and John was subsequently released. Domitianís reign ended in AD 96, and this has provided the traditional means for dating the writing of the book of Revelation.

    Direct References to the Date:

    Although there are many indirect references to John being banished to Patmos under Domitian in the Church Fathers, there are also direct references to Johnís banishment under Domitian. The earliest of these is that of Irenaeus (c. 130-202). He was bishop of Lyons in Gaul. In Against Heresies (A.D. 180-199), Book V, Chapter 30, we read:

    We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.

    The church historian Eusebius Pamphili was born about 260 and died before 341. Bishop of Cśsarea in Palestine, he is known as the "Father of Church History." Eusebius confirms the authenticity of the testimony of Irenaeus. In chapter 18, Book 3 of his Church History, we read:

    It is said that in this persecution the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word. Irenaeus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John, speaks as follows concerning him: a "If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian."

    Regarding the reliability of the testimony of Irenaeus, in Barnes Notes on the New Testament we read:

    It will be recollected that he [Irenaeus] was a disciple of Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, who was himself the disciple of the apostle John. He had, therefore, every opportunity of obtaining correct information, and doubtless expresses the common sentiment of his age on the subject. His character is unexceptionable, and he had no inducement to bear any false or perverted testimony in the case. His testimony is plain and positive that the book was written near the close of the reign of Domitian, and the testimony should be regarded as decisive unless it can be set aside. His language in regard to the book of Revelation is: "It was seen no long time ago, but almost in our age, at the end of the reign of Domitian."óLardner, ii. 181. Or, as the passage is translated by Prof. Stuart: "The Apocalypse was seen not long ago, but almost in our generation, near the end of Domitianís reign." There can be no doubt, therefore, as to the meaning of the passage, or as to the time when Irenaeus believed the book to have been written. Domitian was put to death A.D. 96, and consequently, according to Irenaeus, the Apocalypse must have been written not far from this time.

    Writing around AD 236, Hippolytis, in chapter one, verse 3 of On the Twelve Apostles, penned:

    John, again, in Asia, was banished by Domitian the king to the isle of Patmos, in which also he wrote his Gospel and saw the apocalyptic vision; and in Trajan's time he fell asleep at Ephesus, where his remains were sought for, but could not be found.

    About AD 270, Victorinus, In the Tenth Chapter of his Commentary on the Apocolypse of the Blessed John, wrote

    ...when John said these things he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the labour of the mines by Caesar Domitian. There, therefore, he saw the Apocalypse; and when grown old, he thought that he should at length receive his quittance by suffering, Domitian being killed, all his judgments were discharged. And John being dismissed from the mines, thus subsequently delivered the same Apocalypse which he had received from God.

    Jerome was born about 340. He died at Bethlehem, 30 September, 420. Jerome wrote in the Ninth Chapter of Illustrious Men,

    In the fourteenth year then after Nero, Domitian, having raised a second persecution, he was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse, on which Justin Martyr and Irenaeus afterwards wrote commentaries. But Domitian having been put to death and his acts, on account of his excessive cruelty, having been annulled by the senate, he returned to Ephesus under Pertinax(1) and continuing there until the tithe of the emperor Trajan, founded and built churches throughout all Asia, and, worn out by old age, died in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord's passion and was buried near the same city.

    In Against Jovinianus, Book 1, Jerome also wrote:

    "John is both an Apostle and an Evangelist, and a prophet. An Apostle, because he wrote to the Churches as a master; an Evangelist, because he composed a Gospel, a thing which no other of the Apostles, excepting Matthew, did; a prophet, for he saw in the island of Patmos, to which he had been banished by the Emperor Domitian as a martyr for the Lord, an Apocalypse containing the boundless mysteries of the future."

    Sulpitius Severus was an ecclesiastical writer who was born in Aquitaine in 360. He died about 420-25. In chapter 31 of Book 2 of his Sacred History, we read:

    THEN, after an interval, Domitian, the son of Vespasian, persecuted the Christians. At this date, he banished John the Apostle and Evangelist to the island of Patmos.

    Conclusion:

    The testimony of these ancient witnesses indicates that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written around AD 96. This leads us to the reasonable conclusion that many of the events prophesied in it must occur later than the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. When any interpretation of scripture flatly contradicts multiple historical witnesses, especially scholarly, respected and reliable Christian witnesses who lived much closer to the time of writing than us, this should be cause to carefully reconsider that interpretation as possibly being in error.


    Many Blessings.

  3. #13
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    In my heart, I've wondered at the great Truths revealed in the Gospel of John. I've wondered if he wrote the Gospel of John even after he wrote Revelation simply because of what he/He reports there and because it is so very different in character from the other 3 Gospel accounts.
    for you are NOW Light; walk as Sons of Light Eph 5:8

  4. #14
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    Forgiven wrote: If I'm not mistaken, this story is taken from a Catholic encyclopedia.


    It sounds to me like you're wanting to use something of Catholic doctrine as your source of truth?
    for you are NOW Light; walk as Sons of Light Eph 5:8

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    Forgiven wrote: If I'm not mistaken, this story is taken from a Catholic encyclopedia.


    It sounds to me like you're wanting to use something of Catholic doctrine as your source of truth?
    As long as it does not out and out contradict Scripture, anything might be used as a source. And of course, whatever we hear via hearsay or tradition, is always subject to THE TRUTH...
    Last edited by Edward Goodie; 02-25-2010 at 08:14 AM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    Forgiven wrote: If I'm not mistaken, this story is taken from a Catholic encyclopedia.


    It sounds to me like you're wanting to use something of Catholic doctrine as your source of truth?
    To reject a statement as false based only on its source is a logical error known as the "Genetic Fallacy" and as such, it does not help us determine the truth.

    I believe, of course, that many things the RCC asserts are false, but I also believe that many things they say are true, so we must take the statements on a case by case basis.

    And we must also remember that accepting a statement as true based only on its source is also an example of the Genetic Fallacy.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Let's look ay another view so as to be less bias which I found from an internet side, Happy reading:
    Thanks for the quote Cheow. It is very important that we look at all the evidence to avoid bias. But I find it quite ironic that the info you quoted is extremely biased, as seen in the opening paragraph:
    The writing of the Revelation of Jesus Christ has been traditionally assigned to around AD 96. Because this date does not fit into their theological scheme, Full Preterists, who claim that all of Bible prophesy was fulfilled in AD 70, argue for an earlier dating of the book, prior to AD 70.
    The words in red indicate the source is biased in the extreme. Obviously, the author was trying to bias his readers against Full Preterism by using the word "scheme." I am quite certain that the author would never use that word when discussing his own beliefs. He is obviously biased, and seeking to bias the reader before they even get a chance to evaluate his argument! This is an unrighteous rhetorical technique called "poisoning the well."

    Following the author's "logic" we could just as well say that futurists argue for a late date not because of the evidence, but because an early date "does not fit into their theological scheme."

    All the very best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #18
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    Thanks for the quote Cheow. It is very important that we look at all the evidence to avoid bias. But I find it quite ironic that the info you quoted is extremely biased, as seen in the opening paragraph:
    The writing of the Revelation of Jesus Christ has been traditionally assigned to around AD 96. Because this date does not fit into their theological scheme, Full Preterists, who claim that all of Bible prophesy was fulfilled in AD 70, argue for an earlier dating of the book, prior to AD 70.
    My thoughts exactly brother Richard. The author of this article apparently doesn't understand that the later Church fathers were merely copying from the writing of Iranaeus.

    So if Iranaeus was wrong, then everyone else who copied him was wrong as well. The assumption of course is that Iranaeus was right, but this cannot be proved considering he was not present during the days of John.

    Another point is in the translation of what Iranaeus said. Perhaps he wasn't stating that John seen the vision almost in his day, near the reign of Domitian. Perhaps He was stating that the John was seen almost in his day, but the vision itself could have been seen earlier. Thus, Iranaeus was possibly stating that John, having been seen almost in His day, did not have to explain the 666 (or 616) number because it wasn't important, otherwise he would have explained it. On the other hand, how do we know that John didn't explain it? After all, Christians all throughout Asia minor believed Nero Caesar to be the Beast; thus, they were looking for a character who looked like Nero, to return. Hence the popular first century myth, "Nero Redivivus". Where do we suppose this theory came from? An outer band group of Christians that were not part of the main-stream? I'm sure the Futurist's would love to suggest this, as though Iranaeus were part of the main-stream.

    It's all hear-say folks. You can't take hear-say as solid fact. Just because Iranaeus stated that John may have seen the vision (or himself) near the end of Domitian's reign doesn't make this true. And just because later Church fathers copied Iranaeus doesn't make them true either.

    The truth is we have no solid facts to know when Revelation was written. But we do have indicators, and as Preterist correctly and effectively point out through internal and external indicator's, Revelation was more than likely written in the late 60's AD.

    The late date theory stems from a comment made by a single person, and that person is Iranaeus, who has quite a few errors in his writings, and thus the 666 comments he made could be another list of his errors. Keep in mind folks that Iranaeus was not a historian.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  9. #19
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    RAM wrote:
    I believe, of course, that many things the RCC asserts are false, but I also believe that many things they say are true, so we must take the statements on a case by case basis.

    And we must also remember that accepting a statement as true based only on its source is also an example of the Genetic Fallacy.
    __________________

    So, what other sources are there that point to an early date that are not of RCC origin?
    for you are NOW Light; walk as Sons of Light Eph 5:8

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle View Post
    So, what other sources are there that point to an early date that are not of RCC origin?
    I'm not sure what you mean by "RCC origin." The RCC claims Irenaeus as one of their own, and he is the original source of the late date for Revelation (and it appears that all others are dependent upon him).

    Is there any source other than the RCC for western Christianity prior to the Reformation? Pretty much everything Christian was classed under the RCC before that time, except heretical movements (and splinter groups that ultimately became the Reformers). Remember, even Luther and Calvin were originally Catholics.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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