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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elect Lady View Post

    I conclude that I can't see Jesus face to face then believe, because that seemingly contradicts the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:2-4), and the scriptures that teach justification is by faith, Romans 5:1.

    My question is this, if a person can see Jesus face to face, then believe and be saved, is that not salvation by sight?


    Elect Lady
    Yes, justification is by faith, but then we need to know, by who's faith? Ours? Or someone else's? The previous chapter makes it clear as to who's faith it is, and we might find the answer surprising.

    As to your question about someone seeing, then believing, whether it is salvation by sight, if you are saying that someone cannot be saved (however you define that) by believing, if they see the Lord first, then the disciples could not be saved, and especially Thomas. Remember, they did not believe until they saw him and ate with him. And Thomas even had to have further proof, putting his hands in his side and hands. Now, those who believe without seeing he said were more blessed, yet he did not discredit their believing in him, even though it was after seeing him face to face.

    Ron

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elect Lady View Post
    Hi Joel,


    Yes! Christ victory is universal, but if everyone is universally saved what's the purpose of believing the gospel?
    To use a human example, if you were in prison, on death row, and someone came along and paid the penalty to set you free from it, how would you feel if no one told you, but instead just let you sit in jail the rest of your life? Mankind has been set free, but most still live as though they are on death row. They need to good news so they can live in the freedom they have been given.

    Paul put it this way in 2Corinthians 5:

    God reconciled the entire world in Christ on the cross, which means that the entire world is reconciled to God. And yet, what good does it do if no one knows it? So what are we to do? Paul said that we beg others to be reconciled to God. In other words, because we have been reconciled to him, believe it and benefit from it now!

    Ron

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregoryfl View Post
    Yes, justification is by faith, but then we need to know, by who's faith? Ours? Or someone else's? The previous chapter makes it clear as to who's faith it is, and we might find the answer surprising.
    I'm aware..."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8


    As to your question about someone seeing, then believing, whether it is salvation by sight, if you are saying that someone cannot be saved (however you define that) by believing, if they see the Lord first, then the disciples could not be saved, and especially Thomas.
    Why not?

    Remember, they did not believe until they saw him and ate with him. And Thomas even had to have further proof, putting his hands in his side and hands.

    I remember they did not believe Jesus had risen from the dead, not they didn't believe the gospel.

    Now, those who believe without seeing he said were more blessed, yet he did not discredit their believing in him, even though it was after seeing him face to face.

    Ron
    True, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he "is," and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him (Hebrews 11:6).

    Gregory you made some good points, and if you ask me what about the spirits Jesus preached to in prison (1 Peter 3:19,20)? I'll have to admit that I have no clear answer.

    Elect Lady
    Last edited by Elect Lady; 02-20-2010 at 12:55 PM.

  4. #24
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    You said "I'm aware..."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8"

    Yes, that's a very good point Elect Lady. Faith is truly a gift of God. In addition to that, according to Romans 3, it is Jesus' faith that justifies and declares us righteous. I said Romans 4 mistakenly, sorry. For example, here is a literal rendering of Rom 3:26:

    Rom 3:26 toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus."

    When I said "As to your question about someone seeing, then believing, whether it is salvation by sight, if you are saying that someone cannot be saved (however you define that) by believing, if they see the Lord first, then the disciples could not be saved, and especially Thomas."

    You asked why not?

    What I mean here is that the disciples believed AFTER seeing him, and yet were saved. So if someone sees him face to face, and then believes, they can be saved just like the apostles did.

    You said, "I remember they did not believe Jesus had risen from the dead, not they didn't believe the gospel."

    That is the gospel in a nutshell, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

    Glad to be discussing this with you sister

    Ron

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregoryfl View Post
    To use a human example, if you were in prison, on death row, and someone came along and paid the penalty to set you free from it, how would you feel if no one told you, but instead just let you sit in jail the rest of your life?
    Indescribably horrible!

    Mankind has been set free,
    Conditionally!

    but still are live as though they are on death row.
    Unfortunately, most still are on death row, dead in trespasses and sins until they are quickened together with Christ, at salvation, Ephesians 2:1-8.

    They need to good news so they can live in the freedom they have been given.
    They need Jesus to live in freedom/peace with God ... "Therefore being justifed by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1

    Paul put it this way in 2Corinthians 5:

    God reconciled the entire world in Christ on the cross, which means that the entire world is reconciled to God. And yet, what good does it do if no one knows it? So what are we to do?
    Tell them..." be ye reconciled to God."

    Paul said that we beg others to be reconciled to God. In other words, because we have been reconciled to him, believe it and benefit from it now!

    Ron
    First, we must believe the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and receive Jesus (John 1:12), to benefit from it now, and eternity.


    Elect Lady

  6. #26
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    Yes dear Elect lady

    May we never tire of sharing our Lord with everyone in word and in action.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregoryfl
    Mankind has been set free
    Quote Originally Posted by Elect Lady
    Conditionally!
    Hi Elect Lady,

    May I ask what you meant by conditionally?


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregoryfl View Post
    Yes dear Elect lady

    May we never tire of sharing our Lord with everyone in word and in action.
    Amen!

    Thank you, dear Gregory!

    Elect Lady

  9. #29
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    Feb 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Elect Lady,
    Hi Rose,

    May I ask what you meant by conditionally?


    Rose
    Sure! I meant it is available to everyone, but it's conditioned upon certain requirements put forth in the scriptures, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 1:12, Acts 4:12, Romans 10:9,10.

    IOW, Jesus completed the work, but we must meet certain requirements.

    To use Gregory's prison analogy, let's say you were in prison, and a payer satisfied/paid your sentence, but your release was conditioned upon your acknowledgment of the crime, and acceptance of the payment from the payer of your crime.

    Then, eventhough the debt has been paid if you don't meet the conditions of the payer, you must remain in prison.

    Does that makes sense?

    Elect Lady
    Last edited by Elect Lady; 02-20-2010 at 05:56 PM.

  10. #30
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    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elect Lady View Post
    Hi Rose,


    Sure! I meant it is available to everyone, but it's conditioned upon certain requirements put forth in the scriptures, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 1:12, Acts 4:12, Romans 10:9,10.

    IOW, Jesus completed the work, but we must meet certain requirements.

    To use Gregory's prison analogy, let's say you were in prison, and a payer satisfied/paid your sentence, but your release was conditioned upon your acknowledgment of the crime, and acceptance of the payment from the payer of your crime.

    Then, eventhough the debt has been paid if you don't meet the conditions of the payer, you must remain in prison.

    Does that makes sense?

    Elect Lady
    Hi Elect Lady,

    Thank you, for the answer...

    People remain in spiritual darkness, until they open their eyes to see the light of Christ that is all around them....


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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