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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    That's interesting. Jehu's dinasty would last four generations and they are grouped in 3 + 1, Zachariah being murdered. This gets more interesting because generation is a Dalet KeyWord (Dur) and Death and the Number 4 are connected.

    You meant Jehoahaz instead of Jehu; Jehu was the father, doesn't count.
    That's true.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    There's a priestly/ceremonial aspect concerning the leopard. The Lamb of God is spotless. But the leopard is spotted. Alexander Hislop wrote in the Two Babylons:
    I'll think about that.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    One of the characteristics of the 4th beast is the iron teeth (although the 2nd beast was mentioned to have teeth as well): Shin.
    Both the second and the fourth beast are described as having "teeth," but in the second one teeth are not a major trait. And one of the leading features of the fourth beast is having "iron teeth." Thus the Teeth <=> Fourth Beast connection is quite distinctive.

    Just as there is this link between the second and the fourth beasts, there is a link between the first and the third. Both the lion and the leopard are winged felines.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Both the second and the fourth beast are described as having "teeth," but in the second one teeth are not a major trait. And one of the leading features of the fourth beast is having "iron teeth." Thus the Teeth <=> Fourth Beast connection is quite distinctive.

    Just as there is this link between the second and the fourth beasts, there is a link between the first and the third. Both the lion and the leopard are winged felines.
    Yeah true.

    Associating prophecy with history
    I'm interested in reading the empires' historical records. But there is no clear record that I've found which shows fulfillment from the bible. For example I wanted to read about the Medo-Persian Empire. But I haven't been able to associate to whom refers the horns of Daniel 8's ram. Also it says that the 4th king will be rich and corrupt and will stir up the realm of Grecia (or Greece). Clearly the goat with the single horn is none other than Alexander the Great. But the preceding horns are hard to tell who they are (ok the 4 horns are the 4 generals who took over the empire). And the small horns is none other than Antiochus Epiphanies. Strange. Usually if a horn is powerful it would be described as a large horn. But this one's small.

    The three ribs
    I wonder what is meant by the three ribs.

    The 4th beast
    When you read the about the 4th beast and compare it to Revelation 13's 1st beast there is a difference. Daniel is describing that the 4th beast has an 11th horn that comes up and plucks 3 previous horns out. Revelation doesn't mention that. Revelation mentions this beat has the characteristics of Daniel's 4 beasts: the lion, the bear and the leopard, and the 4th:
    Revelation 13
    1
    And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    It's true that Jesus came during the Roman empire and preached of the coming heavenly kingdom. From what I understand in Daniel 7 it seems to me that Jesus ascended to heaven (after his crucifixion) as Daniel describes it. But his second coming is recorded in Revelation.

    If John is describing all this in 90AD then this coming beast (Rev 13:1) must be futuristic (since God declares the end from the beginning).

    Daniel 7
    10
    A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
    11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain , and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
    I'm not sure if this is past or still futuristic. But the Roman empire crumbled not being able to defend its' borders. But the last 2000 years has been a period of many emires that have risen and fallen as well: Islamic, Chinese, Ottoman, British, French...even American.
    12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
    It seems to me that at this point Jesus presents himself to God the Father and receives the authority after his ascension.
    Coming back to Revelation 13:1:
    Revelation 13
    1
    And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    If the spots of the leopard represent the religious nature, since the passover lamb is the opposite, without spot, but the leopard is spotted, then this kingdom must be religious. The lion represents the king of the jungle and the kingdom must have, I guess authority over the gentiles plus a universal language. Then the feet of the bear might mean the military might.

    What I DO know concerning our world is that it is a fallen world and the world seeks to govern itself while Christ is away by military, religion and authority.
    Last edited by gilgal; 04-08-2010 at 01:26 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Associating prophecy with history
    I'm interested in reading the empires' historical records. But there is no clear record that I've found which shows fulfillment from the bible. For example I wanted to read about the Medo-Persian Empire. But I haven't been able to associate to whom refers the horns of Daniel 8's ram. Also it says that the 4th king will be rich and corrupt and will stir up the realm of Grecia (or Greece). Clearly the goat with the single horn is none other than Alexander the Great. But the preceding horns are hard to tell who they are (ok the 4 horns are the 4 generals who took over the empire). And the small horns is none other than Antiochus Epiphanies. Strange. Usually if a horn is powerful it would be described as a large horn. But this one's small.
    There's not much clear-cut content from Scripture about the historical record of the kingdoms, but what we have in the Bible can be a lot already.

    The two horns of the ram most likely refer to the fact that the second kingdom is a double one: Medes and Persians.
    Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
    And the latter had greater influence than the other. Thus we read:
    Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

    Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    The three ribs
    I wonder what is meant by the three ribs.
    It has been variously interpreted. Some say they were three kingdoms overwhelmed by Persia: Lydia, Babylon and Egypt.

    But what do you think that "rib" means in Scripture? Maybe that's the real hint.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    The 4th beast
    When you read the about the 4th beast and compare it to Revelation 13's 1st beast there is a difference. Daniel is describing that the 4th beast has an 11th horn that comes up and plucks 3 previous horns out. Revelation doesn't mention that. Revelation mentions this beat has the characteristics of Daniel's 4 beasts: the lion, the bear and the leopard, and the 4th:
    The fourth encapsulates all four. The beast in Revelation 13 is like the statue in Daniel 2: there were four successive kingdoms, but one was prevailing at a time and they are depicted as a single unit in both passages. One composite statue, one composite beast.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    It's true that Jesus came during the Roman empire and preached of the coming heavenly kingdom. From what I understand in Daniel 7 it seems to me that Jesus ascended to heaven (after his crucifixion) as Daniel describes it. But his second coming is recorded in Revelation.
    The saints received the kingdom in the first century. Compare Daniel with Ephesians. Acts with Revelation.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    There's not much clear-cut content from Scripture about the historical record of the kingdoms, but what we have in the Bible can be a lot already.

    The two horns of the ram most likely refer to the fact that the second kingdom is a double one: Medes and Persians.
    Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
    And the latter had greater influence than the other. Thus we read:
    Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
    Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

    It has been variously interpreted. Some say they were three kingdoms overwhelmed by Persia: Lydia, Babylon and Egypt.

    But what do you think that "rib" means in Scripture? Maybe that's the real hint.
    Ribs
    Genesis 2 is where ribs is mentioned taken from Adam.

    they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
    When Darius took over as I'm informed. They found a good timing: when Belshazar and the rulers were drunk. I don't think they won by war. Correct me if I'm wrong. But the 4th Persian king was strong (note the #4 and word strong).

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The fourth encapsulates all four. The beast in Revelation 13 is like the statue in Daniel 2: there were four successive kingdoms, but one was prevailing at a time and they are depicted as a single unit in both passages. One composite statue, one composite beast.
    Hmmm... I don't know. If we assume Daniel 2 and 7 as fulfilled or still futuristic. It's true that the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached and THEN the end will come. I even think that the 4 gospels have gone to the 4 directions of the earth like the 4 winds. The stone cut without hand from the mountain might be the crucifixion of Jesus on the mount of Calvary. Remember Jesus told his disciples to stay in Jerusalem until they had received power from on high. What do you think? Are the 10 horns past or future?
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The saints received the kingdom in the first century. Compare Daniel with Ephesians. Acts with Revelation.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Ribs
    Genesis 2 is where ribs is mentioned taken from Adam.

    they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
    That's correct. The word "ribs" only appear at Genesis 2 and Daniel 7. And in both passages ribs are mentioned in conjunction with "flesh." So it is pretty much a strong link.
    Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
    Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
    We have the following association:

    Eve = 19
    Rib = 190

    The ribs seem to be an Eve-like symbol. What was the purpose of the creation of Eve? Please note the following passage centered on Verse 19:
    Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
    Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
    Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
    Eve was created to be a "help meet" for the man. The two occurrences of this expression are centered around Verse 19 (Rib - Eve). So the ribs seem to be a symbol of a "help meet" for the Persian Empire. What do you think it could be?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    When Darius took over as I'm informed. They found a good timing: when Belshazar and the rulers were drunk. I don't think they won by war. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Babylon was taken over by the Medes and Persians in one night. (Daniel 5) I don't think a war was necessary. There was not much they could do.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    But the 4th Persian king was strong (note the #4 and word strong).
    Sorry, don't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    If we assume Daniel 2 and 7 as fulfilled or still futuristic. It's true that the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached and THEN the end will come. I even think that the 4 gospels have gone to the 4 directions of the earth like the 4 winds. The stone cut without hand from the mountain might be the crucifixion of Jesus on the mount of Calvary. Remember Jesus told his disciples to stay in Jerusalem until they had received power from on high. What do you think? Are the 10 horns past or future?
    The ten horns are part of the Roman Beast and therefore are Roman. That's what plain logic strongly suggests. It seems to symbolize the sequence of Roman leaders from the viewpoint of the People of God.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Ribs
    Genesis 2 is where ribs is mentioned taken from Adam.

    they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
    When Darius took over as I'm informed. They found a good timing: when Belshazar and the rulers were drunk. I don't think they won by war. Correct me if I'm wrong. But the 4th Persian king was strong (note the #4 and word strong).


    Hmmm... I don't know. If we assume Daniel 2 and 7 as fulfilled or still futuristic. It's true that the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached and THEN the end will come. I even think that the 4 gospels have gone to the 4 directions of the earth like the 4 winds. The stone cut without hand from the mountain might be the crucifixion of Jesus on the mount of Calvary. Remember Jesus told his disciples to stay in Jerusalem until they had received power from on high. What do you think? Are the 10 horns past or future?
    Hi gilgal,

    Obviously, the preterists will say that the 10 horns were past and th futurists will say the 10 horns are future.

    To me the ribs in the bears mouth suggests protector nations of the bear which was the Mede-Persian Empire. Ribs as in the rib cage protects the lungs and the heart (of the bear). The 3 ribs in the bear's mouth probably suggests either the bear conquered 3 powerful nations or that the bear controlled the 3 alliance nations. I saw from a website which says so:

    539 BC - The second kingdom represented the Medo-Persian Empire which conquered Babylon in 539 BC Like a bear it had great power but not the power like Babylon. The greater power of Persia as compared to the Medes was revealed in the bear raising up on one side. The three ribs in its mouth probably referred to the three provinces of Babylonia, Persia, and Media.

    The 4th King of Persia (was strong) I suspect was either Xerxes or Darius.

    Many Blessings.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheow Wee Hock View Post
    Hi gilgal,

    Obviously, the preterists will say that the 10 horns were past and th futurists will say the 10 horns are future.

    To me the ribs in the bears mouth suggests protector nations of the bear which was the Mede-Persian Empire. Ribs as in the rib cage protects the lungs and the heart (of the bear). The 3 ribs in the bear's mouth probably suggests either the bear conquered 3 powerful nations or that the bear controlled the 3 alliance nations. I saw from a website which says so:

    539 BC - The second kingdom represented the Medo-Persian Empire which conquered Babylon in 539 BC Like a bear it had great power but not the power like Babylon. The greater power of Persia as compared to the Medes was revealed in the bear raising up on one side. The three ribs in its mouth probably referred to the three provinces of Babylonia, Persia, and Media.

    The 4th King of Persia (was strong) I suspect was either Xerxes or Darius.

    Many Blessings.
    Well concerning Medo-Persia (Medes are a help meet for the Persians, Victor?) in Daniel 8:
    Daniel 8
    4
    I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
    Maybe the 3 ribs in Daniel 7 represent the 3 directions in Daniel 8.

    It was given to him the commandment to devour much flesh. But the Medo-Persians won a easy takeover from the Babylonians. Only in the 4th Persian King (Daniel 10:2And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia).

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Well concerning Medo-Persia (Medes are a help meet for the Persians, Victor?) in Daniel 8:

    Maybe the 3 ribs in Daniel 7 represent the 3 directions in Daniel 8.

    It was given to him the commandment to devour much flesh. But the Medo-Persians won a easy takeover from the Babylonians. Only in the 4th Persian King (Daniel 10:2And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia).
    The 4th King of Persia does sound like Darius the Great who actually attacked Greece. It was during his reign when the Mede-Persian Empire reached its peak. This is described in wiki but unfortunately, Darius was the 3rd King of Persia and Xerxes was the 4th King. Perhaps, Darius was actually the fourth King but I have nothing to prove from history. From wiki:

    Darius I of Persia (550–486 BCE) also known as Darius the Great, was the third king of kings of the Achaemenid Empire. Darius held the empire at its peak, then including Egypt, and parts of Greece. The decay and downfall of the empire commenced with his death and the coronation of his son, Xerxes I.[1]
    Darius ascended the throne by assassinating the alleged usurper Gaumata with the assistance of six other Persian noble families; Darius was crowned the following morning. The new emperor met with rebellions throughout his kingdom, and quelled them each time. A major event in Darius' life was his expedition to punish Athens and Eretria and subjugate Greece (an attempt which failed). Darius expanded his empire by conquering Thrace and Macedon, and invading the Saka, Iranian tribes who had invaded Medes and even killed Cyrus the Great. [2]


    Many Blessings.

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