Biblical Proof that Revelation was fulfilled in the first century

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When some bad thing happens to me, an accident, I might experience it as kind of punishment. To be honest I must say I didn't deserve any better, or even worse.

But if something bad happens to someone else I cannot say "you didn't deserve any better".

That's the difference.

Also Jews see the destruction of the Temple as kind of punishment. They were punished,

Not so the Preterists. They were not punished, but God (Jesus) took revenge on the Jews who didn't want to accept Jesus as their king, etc. until the present day.

You comment doesn't make any sense. A Jew could be a Preterist. Being a Preterist has nothing to do with who was "punished." The only issue is if the events of 70 AD were the fulfillment of the prophecies in the Olivet Discourse and related texts.

Mark has it too, Mark 14 57-58:
57 καί τινες ἀναστάντες ἐψευδομαρτύρουν κατ' αὐτοῦ λέγοντες 58 ὅτι Ἡμεῖς ἠκούσαμεν αὐτοῦ λέγοντος ὅτι Ἐγὼ καταλύσω τὸν ναὸν τοῦτον τὸν χειροποίητον καὶ διὰ τριῶν ἡμερῶν ἄλλον ἀχειροποίητον οἰκοδομήσω:

From which might be concluded that also Mark was written after the year 70 ..

There is nothing in Mark 14:57-58 that implies it was written after 70 AD, unless, of course you begin by denying the possibility of prophecy.

First, the dating of Matthew is unknown. If the Temple had been destroyed at the time he wrote, there is no explanation for why he didn't mention it as a done fact.

Why he should?
He writes about a time that the Temple still stood.
And more: The Gospels don't intend to be history books.

Why should he? Because the Temple was the center of all Jewish life! It would be like the September 12, 2001 NY Times failing to mention the Twin Towers.

If the Temple had been destroyed at the time Matthew wrote, he would have said something like "And so the Temple was destroyed to fulfilled the words of Jesus" just like John did in this passage:

John 18:31 Pilate therefore said to them, "Take Him yourselves, and judge Him according to your law." The Jews said to him, "We are not permitted to put anyone to death," 32 that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled, which He spoke, signifying by what kind of death He was about to die.

Read A.T.Robinson's Redating the New Testament. He concluded that all the books were written before 70 AD for this reason. This idea is not unique to me. I didn't make it up.

And to say that "the Gospels don't intend to be history books" directly contradicts Luke's introduction to his history book:

Luke 1:1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us [i.e. HISTORY], 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word have handed them down to us, 3 it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; 4 so that you might know the exact truth about the things you have been taught. 5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea [Luke begins to describe the sequence of historical events ...]

I'm always amazed at how you reject plain facts to fit your private interpretations.

Second, Matthew did not "declare himself to be anti-preterist." You just made that up.

That is a fair conclusiion, since by then already there must have been some who saw the destrusction of the Temple as a punishment for not having accepted Jesus as King or Messiah.

It is not a "fair conclusion" that Matthew "declared himself to be anti-preterist." You have given no reason for anyone to come to that conclusion.

Exodus 14:25,

And He removed the wheels of their chariots, and He led them with heaviness, and the Egyptians said, Let me run away from the Israelites because the Lord is fighting for them against the Egyptians

I see your absurdity and raise it with an equally irrelevant passage of "holy" Scripture (the quotes are to acknowledge that you use the Bible to mindlessly insult others):

Numbers 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

There is an old saying: I'd rather keep my mouth shut and let people think I'm an ass, than to open it and remove all doubt.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

You misinterpret the "soon" and the "near"

soon, ἐν τάχει , is Hebrew "b'karov"
near, ἐγγύς, is Hebrew "karov".

Don't be absurd. I can't believe how many errors you manage to squeeze into each post. I'll have to start numbering them:

1) You ignored the meaning of the Greek text, which says that the events would happen "quickly" because "the time is near."

2) It is an error to base the meaning of a Greek text merely on Hebrew words that you think correspond.

3) The Greek words don't even correspond to the Hebrew you wrote! Your assertion about the Hebrew for ἐν τάχει is false. That phrase appears a few times in the OT. It is used to translate m'herah, not b'karov:

Deuteronomy 11:17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly (m'herah/en tachei) from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.

Joshua 8:19 And the ambush arose quickly (m'herah/en tachei) out of their place, and they ran as soon as he had stretched out his hand: and they entered into the city, and took it, and hasted and set the city on fire.

"karov" to be found in Deuteronmy 30:14,

כִּי-קָרוֹב אֵלֶיךָ הַדָּבָר מְאֹד
"ki-karov eileicha hadavar m'od"
For very near to you is the word

"karov" from "karav" = to draw near., like also "korban" -- Jesus making himself "korban" - Mark 11:1-2,
Καὶ ὅτε ἐγγίζουσιν εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα εἰς Βηθφαγὴ καὶ Βηθανίαν πρὸς τὸ Ὄρος τῶν Ἐλαιῶν, ἀποστέλλει δύο τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς, Ὑπάγετε εἰς τὴν κώμην τὴν κατέναντι ὑμῶν, καὶ εὐθὺς εἰσπορευόμενοι εἰς αὐτὴν εὑρήσετε πῶλον δεδεμένον ἐφ' ὃν οὐδεὶς οὔπω ἀνθρώπων ἐκάθισεν: λύσατε αὐτὸν καὶ φέρετε

(The colt able to carry the hundredfold yield of the seed that falls on the good earth)

So what? I've known the meaning of karov for decades. The verse you quoted about the word being "near" has nothing to do with the idea of time being "near." You point fails.

Always at hand. It is the next moment, into which the eternal now flows further.

You can make up whatever you want but you can't expect anyone to believe you if you can't support your interpretations with logic and facts.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The "soon" and the "near" are the characteristics of the almond.

The almond being the "eighth fruit" (after the seven mentioned in Deuternomy 8:8), the kernel being eatable (unlike the kernel of the olive, fruit of the sixth day).

Almond Hebrew "shakeid" is (used as) a wordplay with "shakad", to be alert, wakeful, keep watch.
Jeremiah 1:11-12,

וַיְהִי דְבַר-יְהוָה אֵלַי לֵאמֹר מָה-אַתָּה רֹאֶה יִרְמְיָהוּ וָאֹמַר, מַקֵּל שָׁקֵד אֲנִי רֹאֶה

וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֵלַי הֵיטַבְתָּ לִרְאוֹת כִּי-שֹׁקֵד אֲנִי עַל-דְּבָרִי לַעֲשֹׂתוֹ

"shakad"= Greek "grègorein"

Conclusion of "the Olivet discourse",
Mark 13:37

ὃ δὲ ὑμῖν λέγω, πᾶσιν λέγω, γρηγορεῖτε.

"What I say to you I say to all: WAKE"

Yes, I've known about that word play for many years. I've always thought it was an excellent example of how Scripture uses puns to communicate in visions.

But your example only confirms Preterism. Jesus would have been very misleading if he told his first century audience to "watch" for events that weren't going to happen for another 2000 years! And he would have been a liar when he said that "all these things will be fulfilled in this generation."

[sylvius]

Yes, I've known about that word play for many years. I've always thought it was an excellent example of how Scripture uses puns to communicate in visions.

But your example only confirms Preterism. Jesus would have been very misleading if he told his first century audience to "watch" for events that weren't going to happen for another 2000 years! And he would have been a liar when he said that "all these things will be fulfilled in this generation."

It is not "watch for events to happen".

כִּי-שֹׁקֵד אֲנִי עַל-דְּבָרִי לַעֲשֹׂתוֹ
"ki-shokeid ani al-d'vari la'asoto"
For I watch/wake over my word to do it

Same "la'asoto" in Dt. 30:14,

כִּי-קָרוֹב אֵלֶיךָ הַדָּבָר מְאֹד בְּפִיךָ וּבִלְבָבְךָ לַעֲשֹׂתוֹ
"ki-karov eileicha hadavar m'od b'phicha uvilvavcha la'asoto"
For very near to you is the word , in your mouth and in your heart, to do it.

That's strange, ain't it!

I saw it now, "the times of the Gentiles", mentioned in Luke 21:24,

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

they are the 3,5 times "time, times and half", of Daniel, also alluded to in Revelation 11:1–2:

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months."

"la'asoto" referring the the 35th and last word of the account of the seventh day, Genesis 1:1-3,

וַיְכֻלּוּ הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ וְכָל צְבָאָם:
וַיְכַל אֱ־לֹהִים בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי מְלַאכְתּוֹ אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה וַיִּשְׁבֹּת בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי מִכָּל מְלַאכְתּוֹ אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה:
וַיְבָרֶךְ אֱ־לֹהִים אֶת יוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי וַיְקַדֵּשׁ אֹתוֹ כִּי בוֹ שָׁבַת מִכָּל מְלַאכְתּוֹ אֲשֶׁר בָּרָא אֱ־לֹהִים לַעֲשׂוֹת:

you can count it after!

35 x 167 = 5845

So indeed "the time is near" it is always near, every moment until the end of time.

The Temple = the house of God, i.e. the place where God resides, being nothing more or less than the entrance (door) of the sabbath in the initial letters of "yom hashihsi vay'chulu hashamayim" -- 666 being the number of the beast, which is the "abomination of desolation" in the midst of your bible

שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם "shikkuts shomeim", said to be an intentional perversion of "baal shamayim" ("lord of heaven").
"Shikkuts" = detestable thing. "Shomem" said to be formed after "boshet" = shame, from "shamam"= to be desolate, waste, depopulated; to be stupified, stunned, shocked, alarmed.


Melchizedek being Priest to the Most High God, Who possesses heaven and earth --

What earth?

Having no earth beneath your feet you'll fall, like Satan during the 1000-year reign.

"the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken." (Mark 13:25)

Greek σαλεύω
1) a motion produced by winds, storms, waves, etc 1a) to agitate or shake 1b) to cause to totter 1c) to shake thoroughly, of a measure filled by shaking its contents together 2) to shake down, overthrow 2a) to cast down from one's (secure and happy) state 2b) to move, agitate the mind, to disturb one


cf. Rashi on Genesis 1:6,

Let there be an expanse: Let the expanse be strengthened, for, although the heavens were created on the first day, they were still moist, and they solidified on the second [day] from the rebuke of the Holy One, blessed be He, when He said, “Let there be an expanse.” This is what Scripture says (Job 26:11): “The pillars of the heavens trembled” the entire first day, and on the second day: “They were astonished by His rebuke,” like a person who stands in astonishment because of the rebuke of the one who frightens him. [Genesis Rabbah 12:10]

I always thought this in terms of s chess-play, one of my hobby-horses, (I got a stable full of them).

Hebrew "shachmat"

"shach" from "histachavah"= to bow down, prostrate oneself. (Mordechai refusing to bow for Haman)

"mat" from "mut" = to totter, shakle, quake. waver, collapse, fall, decline, bend.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It is not "watch for events to happen".

כִּי-שֹׁקֵד אֲנִי עַל-דְּבָרִי לַעֲשֹׂתוֹ
"ki-shokeid ani al-d'vari la'asoto"
For I watch/wake over my word to do it

Same "la'asoto" in Dt. 30:14,

כִּי-קָרוֹב אֵלֶיךָ הַדָּבָר מְאֹד בְּפִיךָ וּבִלְבָבְךָ לַעֲשֹׂתוֹ
"ki-karov eileicha hadavar m'od b'phicha uvilvavcha la'asoto"
For very near to you is the word , in your mouth and in your heart, to do it.

That's strange, ain't it!

Nothing strange there at all. You haven't given any reason to think that those verses are related.

I saw it now, "the times of the Gentiles", mentioned in Luke 21:24,

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

they are the 3,5 times "time, times and half", of Daniel, also alluded to in Revelation 11:1–2:

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months."

Mere speculation. Any reason anyone should agree with you?

"la'asoto" referring the the 35th and last word of the account of the seventh day, Genesis 1:1-3,

וַיְכֻלּוּ הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ וְכָל צְבָאָם:
וַיְכַל אֱ־לֹהִים בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי מְלַאכְתּוֹ אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה וַיִּשְׁבֹּת בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי מִכָּל מְלַאכְתּוֹ אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה:
וַיְבָרֶךְ אֱ־לֹהִים אֶת יוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי וַיְקַדֵּשׁ אֹתוֹ כִּי בוֹ שָׁבַת מִכָּל מְלַאכְתּוֹ אֲשֶׁר בָּרָא אֱ־לֹהִים לַעֲשׂוֹת:

you can count it after!

35 x 167 = 5845

Too bad there are 5852 verses in the Torah.

So indeed "the time is near" it is always near, every moment until the end of time.

You make the words of the Bible meaningless when you say things like that.

The Temple = the house of God, i.e. the place where God resides, being nothing more or less than the entrance (door) of the sabbath in the initial letters of "yom hashihsi vay'chulu hashamayim" -- 666 being the number of the beast, which is the "abomination of desolation" in the midst of your bible

שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם "shikkuts shomeim", said to be an intentional perversion of "baal shamayim" ("lord of heaven").
"Shikkuts" = detestable thing. "Shomem" said to be formed after "boshet" = shame, from "shamam"= to be desolate, waste, depopulated; to be stupified, stunned, shocked, alarmed.

The number 666 is also the value of The Holy Ark (Arun HaQadosh, 2 Chr 35:3) that was in the Temple. Go figure ...

Melchizedek being Priest to the Most High God, Who possesses heaven and earth --

What earth?

Having no earth beneath your feet you'll fall, like Satan during the 1000-year reign.

You mean like the earth that Jeremiah said God created?

Jeremiah 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

He hath made the earth (asah aretz) = 666

Oh, and note that the root asah appears in that identity. The root of "la'asoto" that you keep talking about ...

Gotta love gematria, eh?

[sylvius]

Nothing strange there at all. You haven't given any reason to think that those verses are related.


Mere speculation. Any reason anyone should agree with you?

it is "b'chinnam" = gratis, without reason.

Too bad there are 5852 verses in the Torah.

Yet the "chazak" says 5845 -- being strong by definition.

ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, "who is and who was and who comes" is Hebrew: "hoveh hayah vava", gematria 45, like of Adam (and like the 45 verses that exceed the 5800, 58 being root of "b'chinnam".

The number 666 is also the value of The Holy Ark (Arun HaQadosh, 2 Chr 35:3) that was in the Temple. Go figure ...

which proves your stiff-neckedness ..

(it is "aron hakodesh")

You mean like the earth that Jeremiah said God created?

No, I mean the dry land that became visible when the waters gathered into one place.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

it is "b'chinnam" = gratis, without reason.

"without reason" - I couldn't agree more!

Yet the "chazak" says 5845 -- being strong by definition.

Being strongly wrong is not a good thing.

ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, "who is and who was and who comes" is Hebrew: "hoveh hayah vava", gematria 45, like of Adam (and like the 45 verses that exceed the 5800, 58 being root of "b'chinnam".

Yes, you can fit any pattern you want after the fact.

If you want to do science, try developing a theory that can actually predict something ...

which proves your stiff-neckedness ..

Actually, it proves yours.

(it is "aron hakodesh")

Yes, thank you. I've been sloppy with my vowels sometimes since my focus was on gematria which is based only on consonants.

But it's still what is written: Aron HaQodesh (The Holy Ark) = 666

I'm sorry if reality makes you unhappy. I guess I could quit confronting you with the truth if that would make you feel better ....

[sylvius]

Yes, thank you. I've been sloppy with my vowels sometimes since my focus was on gematria which is based only on consonants.

We discussed it ("kadosh" and "kodesh") not very long time ago ...

[sylvius]

There is only one possible conclusion, viz. all four Gospels and also Acts and Revelation, were written after the destruction of the Temple.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

There is only one possible conclusion, viz. all four Gospels and also Acts and Revelation, were written after the destruction of the Temple.

On the contrary, the only possible conclusion is that they were all written before the destruction since not one of them mentioned it as a done fact.