Biblical Proof that Revelation was fulfilled in the first century

[TheForgiven]

PS...Re: your comment on the book of Revelation Joe:
all the Feast Day studies should move into the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ for the obvious reasons I have already stated.

I'll go ahead and start. Check for my posts on the Thread entitled, "The 7 Feasts of Israel".

This will be a great discussion. If we're starting over, it's primarily for me because you've already studied this. And so as you stated Kathryn, we've got to cover each feast, one-by-one, so that we can see what we agree on, and what we do not agree on.

God's love and peace, with many blessings.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The reason why he is told not to seal up the words, is because Rev. is an ONGOING prophecy that started in the first century and leads up to the new heaven and earth. It describes the whole tooty from begining to end. There is no break. Yes it was to take place shortly, but he is talking about the start. Rev. describes events that takes place over hundreds/ thousands of years. It should be viewed in that context. That's my opinion.

Your opinion is called the "Historicist" interpretation of Revelation. There are many problems with it. First and foremost, the text says nothing about the events taking thousands of years. On the contrary, it explicitly states that the events would take 1260 days = 42 months = 3.5 years. Second, the book of Revelation integrates with the Olivet Discourse which Christ said would be fulfilled during the lifetime of his first century audience. Third, the attempt to map the last 2000 years of history onto the events in Revelation is highly speculative and stretches credulity. And there are many other problems I could list if you are interested in pursuing this interpretation.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Revelations talks about a male child that is born and caught away to God...obviously Jesus. So John himself is describing history half way through the book. Also, wheres the new earth? Two thousand years on and its obviously not here. Revelation describes past, present and future. How can you take the description of one vision of 1260 days or 42 months and then say it accounts for the whole book. The beginning describes the Lamb that was slaughtered and the end describes the new heaven and earth..now you want to fit that into 1260 days? There are so many visions in Rev. with no possibility of knowing the time frame it is talking about and if the 1000 years is to be taken literal..then how do you fit that in with the 1260 days? There's only one way. Rev. is describing past, present, near future AND distant future. The 1260 days was applicable for the seven churches that John was writing to. They would be going to heaven soon and time frames would not matter to them anyway.

I agree the man-child refers to Jesus. Specifically, it refers to the birth of Jesus and his ascension after his resurrection. John was shown a recap of the life of Jesus. It was already past at the time John wrote.

The "new heaven and new earth" is a way of talking about the New Covenant under which the "new Jerusalem" lives. There are many passages that confirm this. The two cities of Revelation are the two Jerusalems that Paul spoke about:

Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is (The Great Harlot, Mystery Babylon), and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free (The Bride, the New Jerusalem), which is the mother of us all.

This is confirmed in Revelation 11:8 which identifies the Great City Mystery Babylon as Jerusalem. And Hebrews confirms the identity of the New Jerusalem as the Church:

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The 1260 days refers to the time of the great tribulation when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed, exactly as Christ predicted in the Olivet Discourse.

[sylvius]

The 1260 days refers to the time of the great tribulation when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed, exactly as Christ predicted in the Olivet Discourse.

I thought they referred to Daniel's "time, times and half a time", like also Matthew's 42 generations.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I thought they referred to Daniel's "time, times and half a time", like also Matthew's 42 generations.

Yes, they refer to Daniel's time, times, and half a time. But that's got nothing to do with Matthew's 42 generations. Not every occurrence of the same number refers to the same thing. The seven heads on the dragon are not the seven days of creation.

[sylvius]

Yes, they refer to Daniel's time, times, and half a time. But that's got nothing to do with Matthew's 42 generations. Not every occurrence of the same number refers to the same thing. The seven heads on the dragon are not the seven days of creation.

"One time" is total time of biblical human history, 1656 years, the time before the flood.

"half a time" is 828 years, 828 being gematria of Tsaf'nath Pa'neiach, צָפְנַת פַּעְנֵחַ, the name given by Pharao to Jospeh, Genesis 41:45,

meaning: "Revealer of hidden things" , "m'galeh mistarim", which has the same gematria 828 (Baal Haturim)
Rashi has מפרש הצפונות, "m'pharesh hatsaphunot" --
which is about God's Name hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vaychulu hasahamyim"

Same thing John says about Jesus:

John 1:18,
θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε: μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.

ἐξηγήσατο from ἐξηγέομαι = tell, relate, explain, make known, reveal.


That must be why he is "son of Jospeh", even a carpenter = τέκτων, a ship's carpenter or builder, like Noach, constructor of the ark, "teivah", which is the word as written with (Hebrew, not Greek) letters, with measures 30-300-50 = "lashon" = tongue, but not given in the right order, the ark being lifted up by the water and touching the 50th cubit above the earth and next coming to rest on the mountains of Ararat, while on the 365th day after the beginning of the flood the earth was dry again, Genesis 8:14, showing the same gematria as Genesis 1:1.

3,5 x 1656 = 5796
leaving four years till the year 5800, 58 being gematria of "chen", favor, like also of the name "Noach", the tenth generation of Adam, even "the son of Adam", since only in the case of Noach there is mentioning of "ben"= son, Genesis 5:28,
And Lamech lived a hundred and eighty two years, and he begot a son.
Rashi:
and he begot a son: Heb. בֵּן, from whom the world was built (נִבְנָה). - [from Tanchuma Bereishith 11]

The four remaining years comprising the time of the flood, alluded to in Genesis 9:28-29,
And Noach lived after the Flood, three hundred and fifty years. And all the days of Noach were nine hundred and fifty years, and he died.
The year of the flood not being reckoned.

[duxrow]

Another way of seeing the 3 1/2, or 42 mos. or 3-score ten, or time, times plural, plus half a time, is to compare with the 3 dispensations: Genesis / Old Covenant / New Covenant + millennium ahead. Pattern also fits the Solomon Temple design in 1Kings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Another way of seeing the 3 1/2, or 42 mos. or 3-score ten, or time, times plural, plus half a time, is to compare with the 3 dispensations: Genesis / Old Covenant / New Covenant + millennium ahead. Pattern also fits the Solomon Temple design in 1Kings.

But elsewhere you said that each of those times is equal to 2000 years. How then can they represent a time, times, and half a time?

[duxrow]

Twenty centuries (each a 'score'), when a thousand years = one day, so Genesis is Day one and two. The two covenants are the "times, pl.), and the half-time is the millennium to come.. The Holy Places in the Temple are also 20x20x20, plus a 10 size porch!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Twenty centuries (each a 'score'), when a thousand years = one day, so Genesis is Day one and two. The two covenants are the "times, pl.), and the half-time is the millennium to come.. The Holy Places in the Temple are also 20x20x20, plus a 10 size porch!

OK - a time = 2000 years up to Abraham, times = 2000 years from Abraham to Jesus and 2000 years from Jesus to now, and half a time = 1000 year millennium.

That's a lovely pattern. It's probably a good thing you won't live long enough to see it fail since that would be very disappointing to you.

And this makes me wonder how much time needs to pass before you would admit your theory was wrong. A hundred years? Two hundred?