Biblical Proof that Revelation was fulfilled in the first century

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe...I'm sorry. I don't know what else to discuss here at all. I presented scripture as clearly as I know how to do it. When I read your response, it seems as though you haven't read any of mine. That's ok. I think that we should just leave it for someone else, as you had orginally suggested...or maybe this is just "dead in the water" for now. I have no other way of responding to your post, than with what I've already given you...which I thought, was a very clear description of the Laws of Pentecost. I know this isn't a popular subject.
Blessings, Kathryn

Hi Kathryn. Don't give up so easily. All I needed to know is what your question is, or what was the conclusion of your point. I gathered that your main objective is to prove that Prophesy is not yet fully completed because of how you interpret "Pentecost". I understand your position on this, but I have not seen any conclusive evidence from scripture.

Studying the Old Testament is awesome, because it complements the New Testament. The Old Testament paints a lot of pictures that are shown to be fulfilled in the New Testament age. With regards to the Law, Paul clearly states that it's requirements were nailed to the cross; thus, the observances of Pentecost, and other annual holidays required under the Law, are no longer applicable.

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith [IN CHRIST].

Romans 9:32
Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 3:2
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5
Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Paul makes it clear that paying attention to the Law and trying to establish a relationship with God by observing the works of the Law is pointless. Most importantly, trying to study the requirements of the law to determine the fulfillment of Prophesy is not only illogical, but vague at best. Pentecost was an observance of the Law, that unfortunately has carried over into the Church Age by the rather ritualistic practices of the RCC and the Greek Orthodox Church; to this day, both still combine Old Testament practices into the New Testament Church. While it is true that Jewish observances of the Law, with regards to its rituals, sacraments, and practices, are great to study to see how they communicate the intensions of God in the New Covenant, it unscriptural to attempt to combine the rituals or sacraments of the Law with the Christian Church. Paul says that the Galatians received the Spirit by hearing with faith; not by observing the law (this includes Pentecost).

Therefore, I’m more than happy to study these things. But I do not see any reason that we should study the observances of the Law to determine Prophesy. Thus when you say that you’ve laid out a very good explanation, I must disagree. Most of what you provided Kathryn are inferences; that is, conclusions that may be right, but have yet to be proven.

Remember, Gentiles during Paul’s day received the Spirit as a down-payment without any prior knowledge of the Law and its works. That is because Jesus is the Law, and that Law abides in our hearts. Does Jesus expect us to observe Pentecost, circumcision of the flesh, feastings, fasting, new moon celebrations, and the like? May it never be. For those things were a picture pointing us to Christ, and those things were nailed to the cross, never to be observed or required again. All we learn now is what the Spirit teaches us, and Pentecost is not one of those requirements taught by the Spirit. If we choose to start observing the Law and its requirements, we then become what Paul warned the Galatians about; fallen from grace.

Justification, Sanctification, and grace are all taught in Christ Jesus, and not by observing the different works of the Law.

Another point you made with regards to Pentecost is the resurrection/redemption of our bodies. It is not our earthly bodies that are raised; rather our spirits are given new heavenly bodies, bearing the heavenly image in power. And because you view the resurrection as one where our earthly bodies must be raised [assuming you mean at the last day], the ideals of Pentecost are yet to be fulfilled [per your view]. I believe this was fulfilled in the first century, sometime at or before 70AD. During the days of the Apostles, the resurrection had not yet occurred while the former temple was still standing; although we are resurrected when we have been Baptized into Christ; this is the first resurrection. But as long as the old temple still stood, the way into the most Holy Place was not yet provided. In my opinion, this is because the Church Age was still being established by the Apostles; they had not yet gone out unto all the nations to build the new building; the new temple; the New Heaven and New Earth. All of these things were being built by the works/building of the Apostles, with Jesus as the “corner stone”. When the Apostles completed their mission, then the time for judgment and the resurrection of the dead came. Preterists believe this happened in 70AD, when the “books were opened” and those of the remnant of Israel who were elected to the calling of Christ, and who were dead, came to life in 70AD, when the former temple was destroyed, and the New Wife had been married to the Messiah. The first wife had to first be set aside, having been judged as an adulterous and treacherous wife; she sold herself to the Romans and committed serious Apostasy, and was thus left for dead in “Gahanna”; the place where their dead bodies were burned.

In conclusion, Pentecost was a picture of the Old Testament that was completed in the first century, during the 40 days of wilderness as the Apostles continued their assigned work in building the Kingdom. Their redemption came at the closing of 70AD, just as Jesus said, “When you see these things begin to take place, lift up your heads for your redemption draw near…” Did they see “these things”? Yes, when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem and encompassed her, leaving her starved and stricken with famine. Those who would be saved/delivered from this wrath were those who knew that the coming of Christ was just around the corner. That is why they all knew it was the “last hour” and that the “end of all things was at hand”. And thus was fulfilled all the Law and the Prophets, when the adulterous wife had been killed, and the new wife had made herself ready; the Church of Jesus Christ; the eternal Kingdom that shall never see end, nor ever see an end to her growth.


God bless.

Joe

[kathryn]

Joe

Studying the Old Testament is awesome, because it complements the New Testament. The Old Testament paints a lot of pictures that are shown to be fulfilled in the New Testament age. With regards to the Law, Paul clearly states that it's requirements were nailed to the cross; thus, the observances of Pentecost, and other annual holidays required under the Law, are no longer applicable.

Kathryn

It doesnt just compliment it Joe...it WITNESSES TO IT. This is why it is vitally important that we understand what it is witnnessing to. As I said before..YOU CANNOT FULLY UNDERSTAND THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, WITHOUT FIRST SEEING HIM REVEALED FULLY IN THE LAW.
No...the observances are no longer applicable as having to obey them...BUT THE REVELATION AND WITNESSES MOST CERTAINLY ARE, because they reveal Jesus Christ Himself.

I'm not giving up Joe. YOU are. ALL I asked you to do, was take a look at the Feast Of Pentecost with me, and after reading what I had written...you could agree or disagree that what had been presented, provided the adequate witness in scripture. I provided you with type and shadow from the OT, followed by a witness of it;s outworking in scripture in the NT, as well as the book of Revelation.
I will not engage in wordy back and forth discussions. Either we take scripture and both learn to rightly divide it...or not. I just don't have the time or inclination to do otherwise.
Blessings, Kathryn

[TheForgiven]

Joe

Studying the Old Testament is awesome, because it complements the New Testament. The Old Testament paints a lot of pictures that are shown to be fulfilled in the New Testament age. With regards to the Law, Paul clearly states that it's requirements were nailed to the cross; thus, the observances of Pentecost, and other annual holidays required under the Law, are no longer applicable.

Kathryn

It doesnt just compliment it Joe...it WITNESSES TO IT. This is why it is vitally important that we understand what it is witnnessing to. As I said before..YOU CANNOT FULLY UNDERSTAND THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, WITHOUT FIRST SEEING HIM REVEALED FULLY IN THE LAW.
No...the observances are no longer applicable as having to obey them...BUT THE REVELATION AND WITNESSES MOST CERTAINLY ARE, because they reveal Jesus Christ Himself.

I'm not giving up Joe. YOU are. ALL I asked you to do, was take a look at the Feast Of Pentecost with me, and after reading what I had written...you could agree or disagree that what had been presented, provided the adequate witness in scripture. I provided you with type and shadow from the OT, followed by a witness of it;s outworking in scripture in the NT, as well as the book of Revelation.
I will not engage in wordy back and forth discussions. Either we take scripture and both learn to rightly divide it...or not. I just don't have the time or inclination to do otherwise.
Blessings, Kathryn

And I thought I did. The "Feast" of Pentecost, in my opinion, is already fulfilled in Christ Jesus, more specifically, the first century. This began on the actual day of the Jewish observed Pentecost, roughly 10 days after the passover, equating to 50 days...hence the name "Pentecost". Jesus promised them the Counselor to come, and this was fulfilled on Pentecost as recorded in the book of Acts. Based on what I can gather, you believe that the acts of Pentecost are still taking place, minus the powers of the Spirit (if that is your belief). I propose that it is not, as there are no witnesses of spiritual powers, i.e. tongues, raising the dead, healing the sick, Prophesy, etc. The Church does not rely on these things as the Church has been formed, and we've got His word written down on paper; both in ink and within our hearts.

The RCC and the GOC both continue to celebrate Pentecost. Society also celebrates Pentecost once a year; we call this "Easter".

Pentecost was also called "Shavout", which was in memory of Moses receiving the 10 commandments on the mountain. Paul states that we who have reeived the Spirit of Christ, have His laws written within our hearts (paraphrasing). Thus, what happened to the early church as recorded in the book of acts, is the actual fuflillment of Pentecost.

Finally, Pentecost is often referred to as the birthday of the Church. Thus, what was "born" in the first century, thrives forever since that time. Therefore, I see no reason to suggest that because of what Pentecost teaches, we must illogically conclude that the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" is yet to be fulfilled. I'm assuming this is what you're getting at. I don't believe that this is the case. And if I'm wrong, it's up to you to convince, or else, prove me wrong Kathryn.

I bid you many blessings, and thanks.

Joe

P.S. What makes you think that I'm quiting???

[kathryn]

And I thought I did. The "Feast" of Pentecost, in my opinion, is already fulfilled in Christ Jesus, more specifically, the first century. This began on the actual day of the Jewish observed Pentecost, roughly 10 days after the passover, equating to 50 days...hence the name "Pentecost". Jesus promised them the Counselor to come, and this was fulfilled on Pentecost as recorded in the book of Acts. Based on what I can gather, you believe that the acts of Pentecost are still taking place, minus the powers of the Spirit (if that is your belief). I propose that it is not, as there are no witnesses of spiritual powers, i.e. tongues, raising the dead, healing the sick, Prophesy, etc. The Church does not rely on these things as the Church has been formed, and we've got His word written down on paper; both in ink and within our hearts.

The RCC and the GOC both continue to celebrate Pentecost. Society also celebrates Pentecost once a year; we call this "Easter".

Pentecost was also called "Shavout", which was in memory of Moses receiving the 10 commandments on the mountain. Paul states that we who have reeived the Spirit of Christ, have His laws written within our hearts (paraphrasing). Thus, what happened to the early church as recorded in the book of acts, is the actual fuflillment of Pentecost.

Finally, Pentecost is often referred to as the birthday of the Church. Thus, what was "born" in the first century, thrives forever since that time. Therefore, I see no reason to suggest that because of what Pentecost teaches, we must illogically conclude that the "Revelation of Jesus Christ" is yet to be fulfilled. I'm assuming this is what you're getting at. I don't believe that this is the case. And if I'm wrong, it's up to you to convince, or else, prove me wrong Kathryn.

I bid you many blessings, and thanks.

Joe

P.S. What makes you think that I'm quiting???

Hi Joe...you continue to repeat yourself over and over again, with your opinion, without a serious study of the core subject you seem to think you have down pat. Everything I presented on Pentecost is NOT my belief Joe...it was a clear scriptural presentation of the Law. You continue to voice your opinions, without bothering to take the presentation I gave , with equal care and attention to take the same scripture (because it IS the Law of Pentecost you say was fulfilled) and prove your point. You say I need to convince you or prove you wrong. As I said earlier...I have nothing else to say. It's all there, should you really decide to study out what I've presented.
Either look at the Law of Pentecost and answer my post on it, point by point with your understanding of what it means from the same Law, providing corresponding witnesses in the NT... or just leave this. I won't be answering any more posts like this one. Please don't take this personally.
Blessings Kathryn
PS..you're not quitting the discussion Joe...you're quitting the study of the Law before it already began.

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe...you continue to repeat yourself over and over again, with your opinion, without a serious study of the core subject you seem to think you have down pat. Everything I presented on Pentecost is NOT my belief Joe...it was a clear scriptural presentation of the Law. You continue to voice your opinions, without bothering to take the presentation I gave , with equal care and attention to take the same scripture (because it IS the Law of Pentecost you say was fulfilled) and prove your point.
I won't be responding to any more post like this Joe. Please don't take this personally. Either look at the Law of Pentecost and answer my post on it, point by point with your refutal (or otherwise) from the same Law, providing corresponding witnesses in the NT... or just leave this. I won't be answering any more posts like this one.
Blessings Kathryn
PS..you're not quitting the discussion Joe...you're quitting the study of the Law before it already began.

What aspect of the Law do you believe I'm missing? What have I missed about Pentecost from your posts? I've read them, and I don't recall anything missed? This is apparently an important issue to you, but it's the issues of the Law that I'm trying to get you to address.

Simply ask me a question, and I'll answer; this is how we discuss these things. Be specific and clear. Is this a difficult thing to ask?

I told you I believe it was fulfilled in the first century, and you do not agree; tell me why and what Biblical source(s) do you believe refute how I interpret the New Testament?

Are we discussing the Law, or Pentecost (an observed day of feasting of the Law).

Joe

[kathryn]

They are post 69 and 70 on this thread Joe.

[Gil]

Hi Kathryn,

I didn't bag your other post, been busy, will start looking into
the Temple, Tabernacle thing.

I started a random look at you and Joe's post here.

Quote: Kath. > " . Either look at the Law of Pentecost and answer my post
on it, "

What number is it?

Gil

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,

I didn't bag your other post, been busy, will start looking into
the Temple, Tabernacle thing.

I started a random look at you and Joe's post here.

Quote: Kath. > " . Either look at the Law of Pentecost and answer my post
on it, "

What number is it?

Gil

[kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,

I didn't bag your other post, been busy, will start looking into
the Temple, Tabernacle thing.

I started a random look at you and Joe's post here.

Quote: Kath. > " . Either look at the Law of Pentecost and answer my post
on it, "

What number is it?

Gil

Hi Gil...We must have been posting at the same time. I just sent them above this post

[TheForgiven]

I read posts 69 and 70, and I still do not see what you believe I've missed, although I gained a little more detail on your point.

Feel free to correct me if I summarized your position incorrectly. This is to permit us to concentrate on where you and I do not agree.

You believe that there are, in essence, three phases:

1. Death Work (fulfilled at the cross
2. Sanctification (much like leaven working through a batch of dough) "Shouvet"
3. Tabernacle

I know that there is much more detail than this, but it's the last phase I'm concerned with you about. You stated:

You see, according to Law...we cannot be presented to God as firstborn sons, without the redemption of the body, which occurs in the the next phase...Tabernacles. We are still unclean as we still have the condition of iniquity within us and until the Fire of God has consumed us(and we have fully consumed Him..eaten of His Flesh/drank of His Blood..which is the renewal of the mind by a circumcized heart..or...consumation)...we are still "touching" a dead body.

I agree with certain aspects of this post. I agree that the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to sanctify us through and through, just as Paul says:

Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thus I too believe that the Spirit is there for a reason; to inspire us to live righteous and holy lives. This can only be achieved by our repentance of "death" works, and growing from our mistakes; this process is recognized (in some ways) as sanctification. On this we agree.

Where I do not agree with you is your conclusion of God Tabernacling with man, as denoted in Revelation.

What is a Tabernacle? A Tabernacle in the Old Testament is where God dwelt among Moses and his followers while they resided in the wilderness. It is also referred to as a sanctuary, or temple, where He dwelt in the Old Testament before the sinning of Solomon.

I'm sure you already know this, but we are God's temple; His tabernacle. Thus, we are not awaiting for a future day when God will one day "tabernacle" with us; He does this now, in our hearts. How is this possible? By the blood of Jesus.

Note how you stated, "we are still touching a dead body". Yes as Paul says, "though our body is dead because of sin, yet we are being renewed day by day...." our inward man that is.

Thus God dwells in each believer through the blood of Jesus, who dealt with the sting of sin and the power of the Law. He now dwells within us to instruct us about the ways of righteousness. So I do not see how you've concluded that the "Tabernacling" phase is yet to come because "we are touching dead bodies".

Please feel free to add to what I've written my beloved friend.

Joe

P.S. I fully admire your zeal for the study of the Law; this is making me looking into the deeper things of the Old Testament that fully complements the New Testament.