Biblical Proof that Revelation was fulfilled in the first century

[TheForgiven]

Hello Kathryn. It’s great to be discussing these awesome mysteries with you. Before I begin, let me firs thank you for enticing me to study God’s word from an Old Testament perspective. I’ve tried to convince Richard that we needed to start doing this. All I can say is, “Thank God for you” Kathryn. The Lord is certainly working within you, so much that last night I decided to view an old movie called “Joan of Arc”; an inspiring middle age woman from France who had visions of St. Catherine, and two others, since the age of 10. I’m not sure if you’ve ever seen or heard of Joan; if not, I’d recommend this awesomely inspiring story. I’m uncertain if the story of Joan is true, as Catholic tradition originally deemed her as a heretic. 500 years after her Martyrdom, she was venerated and pronounced as a Saint. Anyways, thinking of you inspired me to watch this movie, as I think of you as a very loving and devout woman of God, and I thank Him for your presence.

Now about Pentecost. I must admit that I’m still a student when it comes to Old Testament sacraments and rituals. All too often in our day, the New Testament Church tends to overlook the Jewish Holidays, festivals, ceremonies, feasts, sacraments, and celebrations. I admit that whenever I read the Old Testament, particularly Numbers, Deuteronomy, Exodus, and Judges, I tend to lose interest with all of the commands to do this, eat that, observe this, etc. Of course, I recognize that these were all pictures of what was to come.

What exactly is Pentecost? It’s a Greek word which means, “Fiftieth”. The Hebrews referred to the “Fiftieth” week as the “First Fruits” of the fall. Jesus is the “First of the Fruits” who appeared to God in order to deliver the promised Counselor; the Holy Spirit. This was fulfilled according to the account of Luke, when Pentecost had been “FULLY COMPLETED”, and the Apostles were all gathered together with Jews from devout nations all over, of which time the Holy Spirit landed upon them, and they began speaking in tongues. Thus, Pentecost in its actual meaning was fulfilled with the Apostles. Christ the first fruits, sent the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles and those who became Christian (about 3,000 souls), and thus they became the First Fruits of the spiritual harvest. The “First Harvest” typified God reaping the “spiritual” harvest of souls who would “Repent and be Baptized” denoting their participating in the “First Resurrection” [See Revelation 21:1-6]. We who are baptized into Christ become the Spiritual Harvest of God through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Now the question remains, is Pentecost still applicable today? I’d say yes, but this depends on how you look at it. Pentecostal Charismatic teachers take this to the max by claiming that they do these such as healing the sick, speaking on tongues, and other miraculous ideas. I used to be a member of the First United Pentecostal Church. Let me just assure you that they are in error; grave error. To teach a 9 year old girl to babble with her lips, as though she were talking in a foreign language or tongue of God, is false. I myself was tricked into such foolishness that for a short time. I actually believed I was talking in tongues. Later I realized that what was coming out of my mouth was nothing more than what “I” chose to utter from my lips, but this by no means does babbling sounds mimic speaking in tongues; tongues was nothing more than a language, and NOT worthless sounds. I eventually abandoned this treacherous life style of searching for a miracle. Thus, in this sense, Pentecost no longer happens (Tongues, miracles, power of the Holy Spirit, etc.). But in another sense, Pentecost happens every day as more and more souls are included in the Spiritual Harvest of God.

The best person to discuss these things with you is certainly not me. I’d recommend Brother LES as he is very knowledgeable when it comes to the Old Testament rituals and sacraments. But I’m very thankful to be discussing these things with you.

In conclusion, I believe Pentecost was a first century fulfillment of the first century Church. We who are baptized into Christ, take part of the first resurrection, and have become the annual fruit harvest” of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. But the First Fruits were in my opinion, Jesus, the Apostles, and their disciples from all throughout Israel of the flesh. Gentiles, in my opinion, may have been included of those who were converted prior to 70AD, but this is my own opinion. May the Grace of God be with you all.

Joe

[gilgal]

Ok. I haven't read all the postings except the first page. The word seal is used in Revelation 5, 22 and Daniel 12. Revelation 5 says that the Lamb is given a book sealed with 7 seals and only he is worthy to open them. And when he opens some things occur or revealed about the end of the world.

Daniel on the other hand was told to seal the book. But I've read somewhere that when Alexander The Great came to Israel the Jews showed him that he fulfilled a prophecy speaking of him and his conquests. Can someone confirm this?

But in Daniel not much is said on Rome except the 4th beast and the little horn. I mean more is spoken on Babylon, Persia and Greece (Daniel 8, 10-12). So that seal has been broken that Alexander read it.

But concerning the 4th beast in Daniel and Revelation 13, there are differences which confuse me.

Daniel says that the 11th horn uprooted 3 horns but in Revelation the Beast is said to have 7 heads. So I conclude that there is a difference between these two empires.

But on the other hand Daniel says that the 4th Beast is taken over by Christ and his kingdom. The saints DID make a difference but evil still exists and it seems that that Light which made a difference in the past is now being taken over by darkness. But to understand this we need to study the parables of Jesus.

We need to study the parables of Jesus to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God/Heaven. There is a spiritual Kingdom which coexists with the the world's kingdoms. But there is a futuristic kingdom which will come as the Lord's Prayer wishes: Thine Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[TheForgiven]

Ok. I haven't read all the postings except the first page. The word seal is used in Revelation 5, 22 and Daniel 12. Revelation 5 says that the Lamb is given a book sealed with 7 seals and only he is worthy to open them. And when he opens some things occur or revealed about the end of the world.

Daniel on the other hand was told to seal the book. But I've read somewhere that when Alexander The Great came to Israel the Jews showed him that he fulfilled a prophecy speaking of him and his conquests. Can someone confirm this?

But in Daniel not much is said on Rome except the 4th beast and the little horn. I mean more is spoken on Babylon, Persia and Greece (Daniel 8, 10-12). So that seal has been broken that Alexander read it.

But concerning the 4th beast in Daniel and Revelation 13, there are differences which confuse me.

Daniel says that the 11th horn uprooted 3 horns but in Revelation the Beast is said to have 7 heads. So I conclude that there is a difference between these two empires.

But on the other hand Daniel says that the 4th Beast is taken over by Christ and his kingdom. The saints DID make a difference but evil still exists and it seems that that Light which made a difference in the past is now being taken over by darkness. But to understand this we need to study the parables of Jesus.

We need to study the parables of Jesus to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God/Heaven. There is a spiritual Kingdom which coexists with the the world's kingdoms. But there is a futuristic kingdom which will come as the Lord's Prayer wishes: Thine Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

This is not confirmed directly in scripture; "directly" as in, his name being mentioned. However, the imagery or vision in Daniel points to Alexander the Great as the he goat the came rushed viscously fast against the Medes/Persians:

Daniel 8:

5 And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 6 Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. 7 And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand.

This vision pertained to Greece, but it was Alexander the Great who was directly responsible for the quick spreading of the Empire of Greece. Eventually, Alexander was killed by his own, and his kingdom was divided into four rulers.

Now concerning Rome in Daniel's vision, not much is spoken about Rome until he sees the vision of a terrible Beast and devours all nations. This Beast had 10 horns, and the 10 horns existed during the days of the Messiah; it was during this time that the Messiah established His Kingdom. The 11th Horn that uprooted three prior horns was Vespasian. The three that were uprooted prior to him were Galba, Ottho, and Vitelius.

Hope this helps my friend.

Joe

[kathryn]

Hello Kathryn. It’s great to be discussing these awesome mysteries with you. Before I begin, let me firs thank you for enticing me to study God’s word from an Old Testament perspective. I’ve tried to convince Richard that we needed to start doing this. All I can say is, 'Thank God for you' Kathryn. The Lord is certainly working within you, so much that last night I decided to view an old movie called 'Joan of Arc'; an inspiring middle age woman from France who had visions of St. Catherine, and two others, since the age of 10. I’m not sure if you’ve ever seen or heard of Joan; if not, I’d recommend this awesomely inspiring story. I’m uncertain if the story of Joan is true, as Catholic tradition originally deemed her as a heretic. 500 years after her Martyrdom, she was venerated and pronounced as a Saint. Anyways, thinking of you inspired me to watch this movie, as I think of you as a very loving and devout woman of God, and I thank Him for your presence.

Now about Pentecost. I must admit that I’m still a student when it comes to Old Testament sacraments and rituals. All too often in our day, the New Testament Church tends to overlook the Jewish Holidays, festivals, ceremonies, feasts, sacraments, and celebrations. I admit that whenever I read the Old Testament, particularly Numbers, Deuteronomy, Exodus, and Judges, I tend to lose interest with all of the commands to do this, eat that, observe this, etc. Of course, I recognize that these were all pictures of what was to come.

What exactly is Pentecost? It’s a Greek word which means, 'Fiftieth'. The Hebrews referred to the 'Fiftieth' week as the 'First Fruits' of the fall. Jesus is the 'First of the Fruits' who appeared to God in order to deliver the promised Counselor; the Holy Spirit. This was fulfilled according to the account of Luke, when Pentecost had been 'FULLY COMPLETED', and the Apostles were all gathered together with Jews from devout nations all over, of which time the Holy Spirit landed upon them, and they began speaking in tongues. Thus, Pentecost in its actual meaning was fulfilled with the Apostles. Christ the first fruits, sent the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles and those who became Christian (about 3,000 souls), and thus they became the First Fruits of the spiritual harvest. The 'First Harvest' typified God reaping the 'spiritual' harvest of souls who would 'Repent and be Baptized' denoting their participating in the 'First Resurrection' [See Revelation 21:1-6]. We who are baptized into Christ become the Spiritual Harvest of God through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Now the question remains, is Pentecost still applicable today? I’d say yes, but this depends on how you look at it. Pentecostal Charismatic teachers take this to the max by claiming that they do these such as healing the sick, speaking on tongues, and other miraculous ideas. I used to be a member of the First United Pentecostal Church. Let me just assure you that they are in error; grave error. To teach a 9 year old girl to babble with her lips, as though she were talking in a foreign language or tongue of God, is false. I myself was tricked into such foolishness that for a short time. I actually believed I was talking in tongues. Later I realized that what was coming out of my mouth was nothing more than what 'I' chose to utter from my lips, but this by no means does babbling sounds mimic speaking in tongues; tongues was nothing more than a language, and NOT worthless sounds. I eventually abandoned this treacherous life style of searching for a miracle. Thus, in this sense, Pentecost no longer happens (Tongues, miracles, power of the Holy Spirit, etc.). But in another sense, Pentecost happens every day as more and more souls are included in the Spiritual Harvest of God.

The best person to discuss these things with you is certainly not me. I’d recommend Brother LES as he is very knowledgeable when it comes to the Old Testament rituals and sacraments. But I’m very thankful to be discussing these things with you.

In conclusion, I believe Pentecost was a first century fulfillment of the first century Church. We who are baptized into Christ, take part of the first resurrection, and have become the annual fruit harvest' of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. But the First Fruits were in my opinion, Jesus, the Apostles, and their disciples from all throughout Israel of the flesh. Gentiles, in my opinion, may have been included of those who were converted prior to 70AD, but this is my own opinion. May the Grace of God be with you all.

Joe

Hi Joe...thank you so very much for the wonderful encouragement. This can be a lonely walk at times and I'm so grateful for the fellowship on the forum. We live in a very isolated spot and during the winter, can go for months without much human contact. (7 feet of snow right now) This is the only forum I participate in, so it's very important to me. (not to mention the fact that I've used Richard's data base almost daily for several years now)As Richard said, we all need each other to complete our understanding. Everyone has their own unique passion and gift.
I went for years avoiding the study of Law as well, until I finally took a few courses on it with a teacher I greatly respect. After the first few sessions I was hooked. I couldn't believe how vast and detailed the prophetic content was. In some ways it is like a key that opens the rest of the Bible. I'm so happy that you're enjoying it.
I understand completely about letting someone else tackle the discussion (that is..if there is one.
Thanks again Joe...Kathryn

[gilgal]

This is not confirmed directly in scripture; "directly" as in, his name being mentioned. However, the imagery or vision in Daniel points to Alexander the Great as the he goat the came rushed viscously fast against the Medes/Persians:

Daniel 8:

5 And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 6 Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. 7 And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand.

This vision pertained to Greece, but it was Alexander the Great who was directly responsible for the quick spreading of the Empire of Greece. Eventually, Alexander was killed by his own, and his kingdom was divided into four rulers.

Now concerning Rome in Daniel's vision, not much is spoken about Rome until he sees the vision of a terrible Beast and devours all nations. This Beast had 10 horns, and the 10 horns existed during the days of the Messiah; it was during this time that the Messiah established His Kingdom. The 11th Horn that uprooted three prior horns was Vespasian. The three that were uprooted prior to him were Galba, Ottho, and Vitelius.

Hope this helps my friend.

Joe

Alex-Ander means Defender of Man.

Galba, Ottho, and Vitelius.

I doubt it. This beast breaks down everything. He first chews with his iron teeth and crushes the residue under his feet with the nails of brass. This beast has no sympathies. We are just entering this dark age. Families are broken down. Nations are broken down. There is no morality.What else?

[kathryn]

Thine Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven[/B].

Good points Gilgal..Although I do believe that Kingdom is here now, within us. It simply hasn't manifested fully yet. And may I add to the study of the parables.. the study of the Law. I know I've said this a few times on more than one thread... but I feel it's SO important. If Jesus used the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms to OPEN the eyes of the disciples AFTER the resurrection to REVEAL Himself(those must have been some awesome 40 days of resurrected teaching!), how much more should we do the same, when trying to interpret fulfillment of prophecy in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ? And...IMHO...the Law in particular, because He fulfilled it! Not only that..in order to have it "written" on our hearts, (which is an aspect of the mind)...we have to know what it is saying first. The Law is FIRST put in the mind and only then, written on the heart. And for some reason, the majority of Christianity has tossed it aside, because they think it's no longer applicable. Ok..I will shut up now and try not to mention it again.:-)
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[TheForgiven]

Hi Joe...thank you so very much for the wonderful encouragement. This can be a lonely walk at times and I'm so grateful for the fellowship on the forum. We live in a very isolated spot and during the winter, can go for months without much human contact. (7 feet of snow right now) This is the only forum I participate in, so it's very important to me. (not to mention the fact that I've used Richard's data base almost daily for several years now)As Richard said, we all need each other to complete our understanding. Everyone has their own unique passion and gift.
I went for years avoiding the study of Law as well, until I finally took a few courses on it with a teacher I greatly respect. After the first few sessions I was hooked. I couldn't believe how vast and detailed the prophetic content was. In some ways it is like a key that opens the rest of the Bible. I'm so happy that you're enjoying it.
I understand completely about letting someone else tackle the discussion (that is..if there is one.
Thanks again Joe...Kathryn

Hello again Kathryn. You may not have much contact in body, but I can assure you that you've got fellow brothers and sisters on this forum. If you don't mind me asking, are you located in Colorado, or perhaps another snowy climate? Ever thought of moving south where it's warmer?

At any rate, I'm thankful to have you here, as is sister Rose and brother Richard, to also include the rest. Sooner or later, Brother LES will catch these posts and would respond to your questions much better than me, when it comes to the "works" of the law. Now when I say, "works", I'm not referring to the 10 commandments; those exist within our heart through the Spirit of Jesus, who teaches us what it means to "do not covet they neighbors wife or possessions" and again "to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind". If in anything, as the New Testament teaches, the Law was never abandoned; only its symbolic works. The commandments are still applicable but instead of man reading them on tablets of stone, or perhaps paper, we read them from the Spirit that resides within our hearts. So Jesus, who fulfilled the Law, teaches us to do the same as he instructs us through "Inspiration"; that's what "spirit" means; to inspire. SO when we sin, and violate any of the commandments (some in deeper meaning/fashion), the Spirit instructs us, convicts us with guilt, and inspires us to repent of this sinful deed. The problem tends to be with our own character, when we refuse to heed the inspiration of the Spirit [some refer to the inspiration of the Spirit as the "voice" of the Spirit].

Thus, is the law void? Certainly not; only its requirements:

1. Do not eat
2. sacrifice this animal
3. for 7 days you shall do this....and on the 8th day do this
4. Observance of Holidays, feasts, new moons, fasting, etc.
5. Fleshly circumcision

These were nailed to the cross, and are no longer applicable for salvation, seeing that these acts of faith cannot save the soul, much less empower us with the knowledge of righteousness; they are pictures of what was to come through Jesus. Paul warned the Galatians who fell in love with the "works" of the Law, and wanted to join the biological Jews with the laws annual works, that if they chose to do those things, then they have fallen from grace, having become a transgressor of the Law. And thus the law commands that all who transgress the Law are to be put to death.

At best, the Laws requirements are a great testament to Jesus, who is/was the Law, of which who also abides in our hearts to teach us the truth of the law.

When the Law says, "You shall not commit adultery", the physical mind simply accepts this as having sexual relations with another's wife or husband. But the Spirit teaches us the true meaning of adultery; to sabotage our relationship with God by refusing to repent, thus serving themselves (thus making our own sins our god). The Spirit also shows us that even lusting after another, although not actually physically involved with another husband or wife, is still committing adultery.

What a wretched people we are, always tempted by the desires of our flesh. But the Spirit explicitly teaches us not to succumb to the desires of our youthful flesh, but to put those deeds to rest, and leave them nailed to the cross. Easier said than done, I know. But that is why we have Grace from God through Jesus, to forgive us of our shortcomings, but ONLY if we choose to repent. Without repentance, we have no chance of seeing God, and if we're not careful, the Spirit's fire can be extinguished, and our bodies (temple) becomes like the 1st century temple that was abandoned, and left desolate. This is what Jesus meant when he spoke of demons who search for a place to reside. The demons comes across a temple (our body) that has been kept in neat/clean order. But nobody resided within this member; that's because this member has become an Apostate. The demon then gathers other demons, and the latter state of the person becomes worse than what it was at the beginning. His only destination is certain death; not physical, but eternal death.

So is the Law still applicable? Yes, but only through what the Spirit teaches, and not what's written on paper. Paper cannot instruct us of the truth; if it could, then there would have been no need for a Spiritual Counselor, and thus the 1st covenant would have sufficed mankind for instructing us about the ways of righteousness. But God knew that man himself, because of our sinful nature passed on from the sins birth by Adam and Eve, could not do this alone; we need Him and His instruction, forgiveness, and life.

Dear friend, I do hope to hear from you more often. I'm glad you enjoy our company. And I will do all that I can to ensure that your heart never feels alone. Remember that you are not alone; Jesus resides within you, but you've got to believe this; that requires faith. Without faith, it is impossible to believe.

God bless, and have a wonderful day.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Galba, Ottho, and Vitelius.

I doubt it. This beast breaks down everything. He first chews with his iron teeth and crushes the residue under his feet with the nails of brass. This beast has no sympathies. We are just entering this dark age. Families are broken down. Nations are broken down. There is no morality.What else?

The Beast is not the horns my friend. The horns rule over the Beast, but the Beast itself does tear down the former remnants of Greece, Medes/Persians, and Babylon. This Beast is Rome and its 10 kings + 1.

Historically speaking, Rome gained total control over all nations, to also include Daniel's people and city.

Now with regards to morale, and the nations, in what way is this applicable to Daniel's and his vision of the Beast? Daniel is told that this beast would overcome Daniel's people. If you wouldn't mind me asking my friend, could you elaborate more? I need to know why you believe that the morale welfare of all nations are applicable to Daniel's 10 horned Beast.

God bless.

Joe

[kathryn]

Hello again Kathryn. You may not have much contact in body, but I can assure you that you've got fellow brothers and sisters on this forum. If you don't mind me asking, are you located in Colorado, or perhaps another snowy climate? Ever thought of moving south where it's warmer?

Good morning Joe...I still haven't figured out how to separate the quote into segments, so for now, I have to use the bold. Sorry..not shouting at you. We live in northern BC, Canada. I did live in a temperate climate, on Vancouver Is. near the US border for most of my life, before moving north..so it sure was a big adjustment for us. Not only that, but we went from city life, to the middle of the bush.

The first year we moved up, nature lulled us into thinking it wasn't so drastic, but we did note that all of the old homesteads still standing had doorways leading off the second story. The locals, who relish scaring newcomers(and particulaily southern ones), told us the snowpack could reach 12 ft. Knowing their tendency for exaggeration, (mosquitoes as big as humming birds, etc) we laughed at them. We've yet to see it that deep...but this winter we're getting pretty close.

I do understand the need to torture southerners now, after 17 years in the north. All of my friends and family in the south, make it a point to ring up and tell us the flower count in spring, when we're all in the depths of cabin fever(and snow) and starting to gnaw on the chair legs. The symbol of the beaver as one of Canada's national symbols, has a deeper and much more insidious meaning than first meets the minds eye. heh

Now when I say, "works", I'm not referring to the 10 commandments; those exist within our heart through the Spirit of Jesus, who teaches us what it means to "do not covet they neighbors wife or possessions" and again "to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind".
Yes..that is an excellent example/verse. I think as you progress in your studies , you'll find all 613 have been imbedded in your spirit and only need the Spirit
of God, as you say, to bring them forth in understanding.

At best, the Laws requirements are a great testament to Jesus, who is/was the Law, of which who also abides in our hearts to teach us the truth of the law.
yes...they testify of Him...His character, will and purpose

When the Law says, "You shall not commit adultery", the physical mind simply accepts this as having sexual relations with another's wife or husband. But the Spirit teaches us the true meaning of adultery; to sabotage our relationship with God by refusing to repent, thus serving themselves (thus making our own sins our god). The Spirit also shows us that even lusting after another, although not actually physically involved with another husband or wife, is still committing adultery.

Yes..and you realize that this goes much deeper than our surface understanding and gives us a peek into the process of the renewal of the mind. Richard brought up the topic of the new wineskins on another post. If you think of the tablets of Law/testimony...they are a type of the testicles(testicles are referred to as "stones" in the OT..or seed sacs. We are told in scripture to "gird up the loins of your mind".

This comparison to the human body might be uncomfortable for some, but it is used in the NT and therefore a very valid witness to God's purposes. In the renewing of the mind , the subconscious can be seen as the virgin bride...who is consummated by the circumcised heart(High Priest/Bridegroom.
I can't begin to get into the typology behind this and do it justice in one post but it is interesting to ponder..particularly when you have such intimate knowledge of your own body and can make the comparisons.

Think of it...the book of Romans says that before the written word...the evidence of God in the witness of His creation, was enough not only to prove His existence, but stimulate us to follow Him. For those of us who are visual, conceptual learners, it is vital we include this witness when we're trying to demonstrate a scriptural principle.

What a wretched people we are, always tempted by the desires of our flesh. But the Spirit explicitly teaches us not to succumb to the desires of our youthful flesh, but to put those deeds to rest, and leave them nailed to the cross. Easier said than done, I know.

I would go further than that and say impossible as long as we have the condition of iniquity resident within us. Thank goodness this sanctification process has an end to it, as we are led through this wilderness by His Holy Spirit.


Dear friend, I do hope to hear from you more often. I'm glad you enjoy our company.
More than you could know

And I will do all that I can to ensure that your heart never feels alone.
Thank you Joe.



Joe

[kathryn]

I just wanted to add that I'll be away for a few days. I'll have my lap top with me, but I'll be watching my grandkids which leaves me little time to contemplate and usually drooling by nightfall. I will check in to make sure you're all behaving though. :-) :-) Kathryn