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  1. #1
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    Strong futuristic bias in Strong's definitions

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Excellent points. I agree completely. Here is my favorite example of a lexicon infected with an idiosyncratic and arbitrary theology:
    Strong's 3952 parousia {par-oo-see'-ah}
    Meaning: 1) presence 2) the coming, arrival, advent 2a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
    Who knew that the lexicon of secular Koine Greek would be so densely packed with literalistic futurist Christian theology???

    Yes indeed, we can all be sure that the word "parousia" had that specific meaning in the common language of first century Greeks! Nice "lexicon," eh?
    Here's another one for you....
    Strong's 2015:
    επιφανεια epiphaneia {ep-if-an'-i-ah} from 2016; TDNT - 9:7,1244; n f AV - appearing 5, brightness 1; 6 1) an appearing, appearance Often used of the glorious manifestation of the gods, and esp. of their advent to help; in the NT the advent of Christ, -- not only that which has already taken place and by which his presence and power appear in the saving light he has shed upon mankind, but also that illustrious return from heaven to earth to occur in the future.


    We need to start a collection of all the Strong's definitions that have a clear futuristic bias to their definitions...

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  2. #2
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    Here they go again!

    Strong's 0684
    απωλεια apoleia {ap-o'-li-a} from a presumed derivative of 622; TDNT - 1:396,67; n f AV - perdition 8, destruction 5, waste 2, damnable 1, to die + 1519 1, perish + 1498 + 1519 1, pernicious 1; 20 1) destroying, utter destruction 1a) of vessels 2) a perishing, ruin, destruction 2a) of money 2b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell.

    Strong's 0622
    απολλυμι apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee} from 575 and the base of 3639; TDNT - 1:394,67; v AV - perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose
    Now I will quote a verse using their definition:
    .
    Matt.9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles will have eternal misery in hell (apollumi): but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
    .


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #3
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    I'm having tooooo much fun.....
    .
    Strong's 4655
    σκοτος skotos {skot'-os} from the base of 4639; TDNT - 7:423,1049; n n AV - darkness 32; 32 1) darkness 1a) of night darkness 1b) of darkened eyesight or blindness 2) metaph. 2a) of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality, together with their consequent misery in hell 2b) persons in whom darkness becomes visible and holds sway
    .

    Mark 15:22 And when the sixth hour was come, there was the misery of hell (skotos) over the whole land until the ninth hour.

    It's no wonder the Futuristic mindset has taken over the Christian understanding of the Bible.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #4
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    Strong's 1030
    βρυγμος brugmos {broog-mos'} from 1031; TDNT - 1:641,110; n m AV - gnashing 7; 7 1) a gnashing of teeth 1a) used to denote extreme anguish and utter despair of men consigned to eternal punishment in hell 2) snarling, growling: in the sense of biting
    .
    Wow! Strong's really wants to make sure that people know that the punishment for unbelievers is eternal punishment in hell!!!!!!

    But I must be missing something, cause I sure don't see anything in this verse about eternal punishment in hell!
    .
    Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #5
    Please do Pleroma as full number.

    And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace

    And of his full number have all we recieved, and grace for grace.


    But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fullness thereof:


    For the earth is the Lords and the full number thereof.

    Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?


    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.


    I think this is transliterated as 'until that which has been filled (strongs #1 definition) in the nations be coming in. Or something similar. Maybe someone good with greek can literate word for word. It implies something that has already been coming in.

    Pleroma (Greek πλήρωμα) generally refers to the totality of divine powers. The word means fullness from πληρόω ("I fill") comparable to πλήρης which means "full",[1] and is used in Christian theological contexts: both in Gnosticism generally, and by Paul of Tarsus in Colossians 2.9.

    Gnosticism holds that the world is controlled by archons, among whom some versions of Gnosticism claim is the deity of the Old Testament, who held aspects of the human captive, either knowingly or accidentally. The heavenly pleroma is the totality of all that is regarded in our understanding of "divine". The pleroma is often referred to as the light existing "above" our world, occupied by spiritual beings who self-emanated from the pleroma. These beings are described as aeons (eternal beings) and sometimes as archons. Jesus is interpreted as an intermediary aeon who was sent, along with his counterpart Sophia, from the pleroma, with whose aid humanity can recover the lost knowledge of the divine origins of humanity and in so doing be brought back into unity with the Pleroma. The term is thus a central element of Gnostic religious cosmology.


    NOT A HINT WHATSOEVER OF A FULL NUMBER

  6. #6
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    Strong as hell

    .[/INDENT]Wow! Strong's really wants to make sure that people know that the punishment for unbelievers is eternal punishment in hell!!!!!!

    But I must be missing something, cause I sure don't see anything in this verse about eternal punishment in hell!
    .
    Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
    Rose[/QUOTE]Yes Rose you are missing something. . Revelation 14.8. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night. Now for any people to be tormented day and night it is necessary that they be aware. If they are obliterated, then they are no longer aware. Now take a step back and take a peek at the covenant that God made with Abraham. ' If you and subsequent generations will be circumcised ---I will give you this land for an everlasting possession' Scripture makes it perfectly clear that circumcision is a covenant of the flesh . The covenant confirmed in Isaac is the covenant of promise. If the word everlasting does not mean forever then the promise must be suspect. Ethnic Jews posses the title deeds to the land of Israel for ever. The Gentiles do not . Both Jews and Gentiles are entitled to claim the promise which by the same token is everlasting.
    Alec

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by alec cotton View Post
    .Yes Rose you are missing something. . Revelation 14.8. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night. Now for any people to be tormented day and night it is necessary that they be aware. If they are obliterated, then they are no longer aware. Now take a step back and take a peek at the covenant that God made with Abraham. “ If you and subsequent generations will be circumcised ---I will give you this land for an everlasting possession” Scripture makes it perfectly clear that circumcision is a covenant of the flesh . The covenant confirmed in Isaac is the covenant of promise. If the word everlasting does not mean forever then the promise must be suspect. Ethnic Jews posses the title deeds to the land of Israel for ever. The Gentiles do not . Both Jews and Gentiles are entitled to claim the promise which by the same token is everlasting.
    Alec
    Thank you Alec, for presenting me with another opportunity to expose the strong bias of Strong's....
    Strongs 2250
    ημερα hemera {hay-mer'-ah} from (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit, akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; TDNT - 2:943,309; n f AV - day 355, daily + 2596 15, time 3, not tr 2, misc 14; 389 1) the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night 1a) in the daytime 1b) metaph., Vthe dayV is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime, because acts of the sort are perpetrated at night and in darkness 2) of the civil day, or the space of twenty four hours (thus including the night) 2a) Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression Vthree days and three nightsV does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days. 3) of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom 4) used of time in general, i.e. the days of his life.
    .
    Now to respond to your statement about eternal torment lasting forever. First off, I view Revelation as being fulfilled in the 1st century, and the reference to Babylon "that great city" is symbolic of Jerusalem. So what I interpret those verses in Rev. 14 to be saying is this: Jerusalem is being judged of God for her wickedness, that judgment is manifest as the destruction of the city and Temple by fire. The smoke rising up from the burning ruins was a witness to all who saw that God's wrath was poured out upon that apostate people, and the desecrated Temple of God. That which represented the Old Covenant system (the Temple) would be gone forever.
    .
    Rev.14:8-11 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day (hemera) nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    Hope that helps...

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #8
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    helping hand

    No1 Rose ,it does not help one bit. You said '

    Now to respond to your statement about eternal torment lasting forever. First off, I view Revelation as being fulfilled in the 1st century, and the reference to Babylon "that great city" is symbolic of Jerusalem. So what I interpret those verses in Rev. 14 to be saying is this: Jerusalem is being judged of God for her wickedness, that judgement is manifest as the destruction of the city and Temple by fire. The smoke rising up from the burning ruins was a witness to all who saw that God's wrath was poured out upon that apostate people, and the desecrated Temple of God. That which represented the Old Covenant system (the Temple) would be gone forever.

    That is a personal ,uncorroborated opinion and does not even address the proposition :much less refute it. The term 'they have no rest day or night' is the equivalent of our 247. Why wrestle with the word eternal when the plain text makes the meaning obvious. My point was that the covenant which God made with Abraham was an everlasting covenant. Galatians three makes it plain that it was a covenant of the flesh. That agreement has never been broken. Consequently ,the ethnic Jews have the God given right to the land of Israel. Israel was not restored by 70AD. They were scattered. ' When he has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all these things shall be finished.' The covenant is everlasting . Like everlasting life. Everlasting torment. Everlasting God. . 'If I forget Israel,may my right arm lose its strength'. The same covenant ratified in Isaac
    (In Isaac shall thy seed be called.) is an everlastijg covenant except that it is a covenant of promise with no strings attached. In ten years time when the Jews are in full controll of Israel , will you still be denying that it is the fufillment of prophecy?.The trouble with preterism is that it acts like a smoke screen to obscure the obvious. Your statement 'gone forever 'indicates that you think that they were consigned to oblivion. In that case they could not possibly be tormented day and night.
    The statement 'their worm dieth not is a metaphor for eternal suffering. People say to me that a loving God would not let people suffer for eternity. Let the word speak . God pleads with people 'Why will you die? Turn and live' .It is man's own choice where he spends eternity. When a man is living , His choices often determine the quality of his life . It is the same with eternity If I am in error I beg of you to expose that error. I do not want to be wrong and am willing to be corrected.

    With utmost respect.

    Alec

  9. #9
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    Hi Alec,

    As I have stated many times before, I do not believe God sends anyone to eternal torment! Those who choose to remain in sin without God, are those who are outside the gates of New Jerusalem....at anytime they may choose to enter in through the gates that are always open and drink of the living water. If one chooses to remain in a state of living without God outside the gates, it is their choice and not God sending them to eternal torment!


    Many blessings

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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