Meshiach Nagid

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello back to you my Dear

I think you missed my point.....

If you take the verbal construct of Nagid [Nagad] meaning to declare, or to show, and apply that to the declaration of Messiah then you cannot also apply the meaning of Nagid as Prince, ruler, or captain to the same Messiah, otherwise you have a double application nagad//nagid, which would read something like this:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the showing of Messiah being ruler [Nagad Meshiach Nagid] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Also, you are using the construct Nagid in the second occurrence when you apply it to Titus as being a captain of the Roman army, otherwise you would be saying:

Dan.9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the declared one [Nagad] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Lastly, you did not answer what was the justification for using Nagid in its verbal construct of Nagad when clearly Scripture does not use it that way.

Hope I clarified my questions...
Rose

Hello my dear!

I don't understand what you mean by "verbal construct." I never used that phrase and never drew any conclusions from it. I examined the etymology of nagid only to show why a nagid is called a nagid. I didn't use nagid "in its verbal construct of Nagad" so there is no need to "justify" something I didn't do.

If I were going to paraphrase the verses following your lead, I would do it like this:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah [in his prominent public role as a Nagid] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan.9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the Nagid [= Titus in his prominent public role as the Nagid of the Romans armies] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Does that make sense? Or did I miss your point yet again?

Many hugs and kisses!

Richard

[Rose]

Hello my dear!

I don't understand what you mean by "verbal construct." I never used that phrase and never drew any conclusions from it. I examined the etymology of nagid only to show why a nagid is called a nagid. I didn't use nagid "in its verbal construct of Nagad" so there is no need to "justify" something I didn't do.

If I were going to paraphrase the verses following your lead, I would do it like this:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah [in his prominent public role as a Nagid] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan.9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the Nagid [= Titus in his prominent public role as the Nagid of the Romans armies] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Does that make sense? Or did I miss your point yet again?

Many hugs and kisses!

Richard

Hey my dear, thanks for the effort....

We are just about there, I think... so I will give it one more shot then put this to rest in the great graveyard of unresolved Biblical problems....

So what does "Meshiach Nagid" mean? There are two possibilities:

1) It could be just a title like "Christ the Lord" that applies to Jesus Christ at all times, specifically from his birth as in Luke 2:11.

2) It could mean Messiah functioning as a Nagid, that is, in his public role as the Messiah manifest to Israel at his baptism as in John 1:30-31:

What it seems like to me is that in Dan.9:25 you are using the word Nagid as the verb Nagad. We know that the word Nagid comes from the root Nagad, but does that justify its use in this case. It seems by doing so the title of Nagid "Prince" is lost to the action of the manifestation of Messiah, and if that what was to be conveyed why wasn't Nagad used in the first place?

In the second usage of Nagid in Dan.9:26, it is used in its proper context as a title.


Much love,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey my dear, thanks for the effort....

We are just about there, I think... so I will give it one more shot then put this to rest in the great graveyard of unresolved Biblical problems....

So what does "Meshiach Nagid" mean? There are two possibilities:

1) It could be just a title like "Christ the Lord" that applies to Jesus Christ at all times, specifically from his birth as in Luke 2:11.

2) It could mean Messiah functioning as a Nagid, that is, in his public role as the Messiah manifest to Israel at his baptism as in John 1:30-31:

What it seems like to me is that in Dan.9:25 you are using the word Nagid as the verb Nagad. We know that the word Nagid comes from the root Nagad, but does that justify its use in this case. It seems by doing so the title of Nagid "Prince" is lost to the action of the manifestation of Messiah, and if that what was to be conveyed why wasn't Nagad used in the first place?

In the second usage of Nagid in Dan.9:26, it is used in its proper context as a title.

Much love,
Rose

Good morning my dear!

I'm not sure why there is such a persistent misunderstanding of my meaning. I never said anything that should suggest I am "using the word Nagid as the verb Nagad." I examined the etymology of the word nagid only to show why a nagid is called a nagid. I never used the verb nagad in the description of Meshiach Nagid. I only used it to understand the meaning of nagid that applies to anyone who is called a nagid.

It looks like the confusion is based on my reference to the "manifestation of Messiah" in John 1:31. I was not "using" the verb "nagad" in that statement. I cited that verse to show that there was a time when Christ was not functioning as a nagid, that is, in his prominent public role as Messiah. Thus, the verse in Dan 9:25 could be talking about the time when Christ began his public ministry as a nagid.

Alternately, it could be that nagid is merely a title not unlike "savior" or "king" that applies to Christ at all times, as I stated in my initial statement of the two possibilities.

To summarize, there are two possibilities:

1) It could be just a title like "Christ the Lord" that applies to Jesus Christ at all times, specifically from his birth as in Luke 2:11.

2) It could mean Messiah functioning as a Nagid, that is, in his public role as the Messiah manifest to Israel at his baptism as in John 1:31.

I hope that clears things up. If not, I think it important that we continue this discussion until we can find that actual point of disagreement or confusion.

Much love my dear!

Richard

[Victor]

There is some interesting gematria concerning this title:

Meshiach Nagid = 425

But 425 is also the value of Diakonos (Minister) and Andros (Adult male)! The title seems to remind of Christ's ministry when He was an adult man. Now, that is curious!

[joel]

There is some interesting gematria concerning this title:

Meshiach Nagid = 425

But 425 is also the value of Diakonos (Minister) and Andros (Adult male)! The title seems to remind of Christ's ministry when He was an adult man. Now, that is curious!

Thanks, Victor, for bringing that up........it is worthy to look into. Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

There is some interesting gematria concerning this title:

Meshiach Nagid = 425

But 425 is also the value of Diakonos (Minister) and Andros (Adult male)! The title seems to remind of Christ's ministry when He was an adult man. Now, that is curious!

Hey there Victor!

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Those are very significant associations. I checked my database and found another very suggestive identity:

Isa 11:2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him = 425

It seems that there probably is some significance to the prime factors (425 = 5 x 5 x 17) but I'll have to think about it for a while.

Richard

[Victor]

Hey there Victor!

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Those are very significant associations. I checked my database and found another very suggestive identity:

Isa 11:2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him = 425

This is absolutely baffling my brother! What a find!

Isa 11:2 reminds everyone of the baptism of Christ! It was His anointing as "Messiah!"

The Number 425 also reminds me of Isaiah 42:5.

Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Christ is the New Adam, upon whom God gave the Breath/Spirit of the New Creation.

Better yet, the context of Isaiah 42 specifically reminds us of the baptism of Christ:

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Amazing!

And here's a final connection:

I have put my spirit upon him = 1200 = Baptize (baptizo)

It seems that there probably is some significance to the prime factors (425 = 5 x 5 x 17) but I'll have to think about it for a while.

Richard

I cannot see the significance of this factorization upon first look.

[joel]

A----(7 weeks)----B

Richard, in seeking to understand your model,
A=the decree to rebuild the city,
If 7 weeks = 49 years, what occurred in the 49 years following the decree, and in what book of the OT would that segment apply?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

A----(7 weeks)----B

Richard, in seeking to understand your model,
A=the decree to rebuild the city,
If 7 weeks = 49 years, what occurred in the 49 years following the decree, and in what book of the OT would that segment apply?

Joel

The basic idea is that the decree to rebuild was around 445 BC and that 49 years later it was completed. There are verses from Ezra and Nehemiah that folks use to justify this understanding. But I don't think we need to worry about the details yet, because there seems to be a fundamental confusion about the order. As far as I can tell, you are suggesting this pattern:

62 weeks unto Messiah
7 weeks (church age?)
1 week (Events of Revelation?)

Is that how you see it? It would be good if we could just speak plainly about what we mean without getting tangled up in minutia yet.

[joel]

The basic idea is that the decree to rebuild was around 445 BC and that 49 years later it was completed.

I am still trying to sort this out..........

Here are some of my thoughts;

1.) 49 years (the 1st heptad) takes us to Malachi...........which ends the prophetic visions of the OT.

2.) the Messiah Prince.......and the prince of the people are not the same person. Messiah Prince is the Lord Jesus.

3.) There are prophetic interruptions throughout the history of Israel. I am currently studying on this. When they are a nation, it seems that prophecy years apply......and when they are not.......prophecy is interrupted. This is currently a view of mine that I am seeking confirmation or abandonment.

4.) I am not currently seeing that Church history lies within the prophecies of Israel. I do not see a "Church Age", per se.........but, as Paul describes it, there is a time of the Gentiles which is to be "filled"....when Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles......which I see as still yet current in view of world events that are facing us today (I say this in view of the preterist position which sees Israel as past, and the church as current and continuing as "God's people" from henceforth).

Joel