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Thread: Meshiach Nagid

  1. #1
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    Meshiach Nagid

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [Meshiach Nagid] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Rose and I had a long conversation about the meaning of Meshiach Nagid this evening because she understands "unto Messiah the Prince" as referring to the birth of Christ. I think it refers to the public presentation of Jesus as Messiah at his baptism.

    So what does "Meshiach Nagid" mean? There are two possibilities:

    1) It could be just a title like "Christ the Lord" that applies to Jesus Christ at all times, specifically from his birth as in Luke 2:11.

    2) It could mean Messiah functioning as a Nagid, that is, in his public role as the Messiah manifest to Israel at his baptism as in John 1:30-31:
    John 1:30-31 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
    This question is important to understand Daniel 9:26. Do the 69 weeks unto Meshiach Nagid speak of the time of his birth or the time of his baptism? There is about a 30 year difference, so any interpretation of the 69 weeks will depend on the meaning of Meshiach Nagid.

    I think the meaning and etymology of "nagid" fits best with the second possibility. The word "nagid" means "leader, ruler, captain, prince" (Strong's #5057). It is based on the verb nagad which means "1) to be conspicuous, tell, make known 1a) (Hiphil) to tell, declare 1a1) to tell, announce, report 1a2) to declare, make known, expound 1a3) to inform of 1a4) to publish, declare, proclaim." This is why a leader or ruler is called a "nagid" - he plays a prominent public role amongst the people. He "shows forth" and is "conspicuous" amongst his contemporaries.

    The baby Jesus certainly was not functioning in his role as "nagid" and I think this may be the reason that God modified the noun Messiah with Nagid. From this point of view, the prophecy was speaking of the time that the Messiah would show himself unto Israel and begin his public role, which happened at the time of his baptism.

    Richard
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    Daniel 9:25-26 (King James Version)

    25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    -----------------------------------------------

    Richard, in verse 25 there is time referring to Messiah the Prince as 69 weeks......which also says that the street shall built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Then in verse 26.......after threescore (60)....and two (2) weeks shall Messiah be cut off.

    Surely, the "cut off" must mean His crufixion, death, and burial......and, that is when the city is destroyed by another prince. It also says that.......the end thereof (the city)....will be "unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

    Doesn't this indicate that there are yet 7 more weeks referring to Messiah the Prince (which also indicates that there is yet 1 more week for the people.....for a total of 70)?

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Daniel 9:25-26 (King James Version)

    25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    -----------------------------------------------

    Richard, in verse 25 there is time referring to Messiah the Prince as 69 weeks......which also says that the street shall built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Then in verse 26.......after threescore (60)....and two (2) weeks shall Messiah be cut off.

    Surely, the "cut off" must mean His crufixion, death, and burial......and, that is when the city is destroyed by another prince. It also says that.......the end thereof (the city)....will be "unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

    Doesn't this indicate that there are yet 7 more weeks referring to Messiah the Prince (which also indicates that there is yet 1 more week for the people.....for a total of 70)?

    Joel
    Hey there Joel,

    Yes, I agree completely that "Messiah shall be cut off" refers to the crucifixion.

    But I am confused by your statement that "there are yet 7 more weeks referring to Messiah the Prince." Were not those 7 weeks already accounted for in the sum 7 + 62 = 69?

    It seems like you are saying that the time line goes like this:

    62 weeks until Messiah the Prince is cut off followed by 7 weeks and then followed by one more week (the 70th week).

    Here is how I understand it:

    7 weeks unto the rebuilding of the walls, etc. followed by 62 weeks unto Messiah the Prince, followed by one week (the 70th week).

    Could you please clarify this for me?

    Thanks!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [Meshiach Nagid] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Rose and I had a long conversation about the meaning of Meshiach Nagid this evening because she understands "unto Messiah the Prince" as referring to the birth of Christ. I think it refers to the public presentation of Jesus as Messiah at his baptism.

    So what does "Meshiach Nagid" mean? There are two possibilities:

    1) It could be just a title like "Christ the Lord" that applies to Jesus Christ at all times, specifically from his birth as in Luke 2:11.

    2) It could mean Messiah functioning as a Nagid, that is, in his public role as the Messiah manifest to Israel at his baptism as in John 1:30-31:
    John 1:30-31 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
    This question is important to understand Daniel 9:26. Do the 69 weeks unto Meshiach Nagid speak of the time of his birth or the time of his baptism? There is about a 30 year difference, so any interpretation of the 69 weeks will depend on the meaning of Meshiach Nagid.

    I think the meaning and etymology of "nagid" fits best with the second possibility. The word "nagid" means "leader, ruler, captain, prince" (Strong's #5057). It is based on the verb nagad which means "1) to be conspicuous, tell, make known 1a) (Hiphil) to tell, declare 1a1) to tell, announce, report 1a2) to declare, make known, expound 1a3) to inform of 1a4) to publish, declare, proclaim." This is why a leader or ruler is called a "nagid" - he plays a prominent public role amongst the people. He "shows forth" and is "conspicuous" amongst his contemporaries.

    The baby Jesus certainly was not functioning in his role as "nagid" and I think this may be the reason that God modified the noun Messiah with Nagid. From this point of view, the prophecy was speaking of the time that the Messiah would show himself unto Israel and begin his public role, which happened at the time of his baptism.

    Richard
    In using the word Nagid in its verbal construct of Nagad meaning: to declare, to show, or to announce, would it then be correct to interpret verse 25 as saying....
    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the showing of Messiah [Meshiach Nagid] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    If so, what is the justification for using the verbal construct of Nagid [Nagad] in this particular case and not latter in the passage when it's used as Prince, referring to the title of someone in authority?
    Dan.9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince [Nagid] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    .
    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 02-03-2010 at 01:48 PM.
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  5. #5
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    A-----------------------------------B-----C-D

    A=the going forth of the order to
    rebuild and restore Jerusalem

    A to B = 62 weeks, when B is the cutting off the Messiah (vs. 9:26). This can only mean the cross of Christ. He came as the suffering servant.

    A to C = 69 weeks, when C is the showing forth of Messiah Nagid.
    (vs. 9:25). Jesus is revealed to Israel as the King of Kings, the captain of the people. Some will embrace Him as King, but others will not and will enter into covenant with the "prince of the covenant" (11:22, 11:30).

    A to D = 70 weeks, when D is the total time allotted to the people and to the holy city.
    (vs. 9:24)

    The people of the prince come and destroy the city and the sanctuary at B (vs. 9:26). This occurred in 70 A.D. The people of Israel are "lo ammi" (not my people, Hosea) throughout the time from the cutting off of Messiah to the lifting away of the blindness that is upon them even throughout a vast time until it is removed so that they can see Jesus for who He is (Romans 11).

    The prince of the covenant (Daniel 11:22), the vile person(11:21) who exalts himself above all called God, will come forth at a latter time,....at the end of the sequence and is the person described by Paul in II Thess who will be vanquished by the Lord and end the process that has taken a vast amount of time to accomplish.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    A-----------------------------------B-----C-D

    A=the going forth of the order to
    rebuild and restore Jerusalem

    A to B = 62 weeks, when B is the cutting off the Messiah (vs. 9:26). This can only mean the cross of Christ. He came as the suffering servant.

    A to C = 69 weeks, when C is the showing forth of Messiah Nagid.
    (vs. 9:25). Jesus is revealed to Israel as the King of Kings, the captain of the people. Some will embrace Him as King, but others will not and will enter into covenant with the "prince of the covenant" (11:22, 11:30).

    A to D = 70 weeks, when D is the total time allotted to the people and to the holy city.
    (vs. 9:24)
    Thanks for clarifying that Joel.

    But I still need a bit more clarification. I don't understand why you put the seven weeks after the sixty-two weeks. The text says it the other way:

    "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and [plus] threescore and two weeks:

    Or to paraphrase: "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be 69 weeks (divided into 7 + 62):

    So it seems to me the text says this:

    A----(7 weeks)----B--------(62 weeks)--------C---(1 week)---D

    Why do you think the 7 weeks happened after the 62 weeks? What happened 49 years after the crucifixion?

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    The people of the prince come and destroy the city and the sanctuary at B (vs. 9:26). This occurred in 70 A.D. The people of Israel are "lo ammi" (not my people, Hosea) throughout the time from the cutting off of Messiah to the lifting away of the blindness that is upon them even throughout a vast time until it is removed so that they can see Jesus for who He is (Romans 11).
    I'm glad we agree about 70 AD, but there I think we would need to discuss the meaning of "lo ammi" (which Paul seems to apply to the Gentiles in Rom 9:25) and the idea of a "vast time" that is not anywhere predicted in Scripture (see below).

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    The prince of the covenant (Daniel 11:22), the vile person(11:21) who exalts himself above all called God, will come forth at a latter time,....at the end of the sequence and is the person described by Paul in II Thess who will be vanquished by the Lord and end the process that has taken a vast amount of time to accomplish.

    Joel
    If that view is true, then that prophecy is different than any other prophecy in the Bible because God very specifically declared the precise number of years of all the other major prophecies involving Israel, Jerusalem, and the coming of Messiah. I wrote about this in a thread called Continuity of Prophetic History confirms Preterism. Here is what I wrote:

    There is a continuity of prophetic history from Genesis to Revelation. The primary events in the history of Israel were predicted with numerical precision. I just fell upon this idea yesterday. Here are my first thoughts:

    400 YEARS OF EGYPTIAN BONDAGE
    In Genesis God predicted the 400 years affliction in Egypt:
    Genesis 15:13-14 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
    This was fulfilled in Exodus:
    Exodus 12:40-41 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.
    40 YEARS IN THE DESERT
    In Numbers God predicted the 40 years of the wandering, and the reason for it, and that He would fulfill His promise to their children but destroy the faithless adults:
    Numbers 14:30-35 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. 34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. 35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.
    70 YEARS OF THE BABYLONIAN EXILE
    Jeremiah predicted the 70 years captivity in Babylon:
    Jeremiah 25:11-12 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.
    Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
    Note that in all three cases God declared both the duration of the captivity as well as the promise of good things that would come when the captivity was completed.

    490 YEARS UNTIL MESSIAH
    Daniel predicted the 490 years unto the coming of Christ and the destruction of the Temple:
    Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
    Christ confirmed the prophesies of Daniel and even quoted him by name in the Olivet Discourse. Both the prophecies of Daniel and Christ were completely fulfilled in the events of the first century, as predicted. The words of Christ are TRUE!
    Luke 21:20-23 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people [of this generation].
    The Preterist view of Revelation confirms the fulfillment of those prophecies in the destruction of Jerusalem, the "great harlot" that chose servitude to Rome over servitude to their God YHWH in the day of His visitation.

    Thus we have a continuous prophetic history from Genesis to Revelation with numerically specific predictions and their fulfillment as confirmed by Scripture and History.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    In using the word Nagid in its verbal construct of Nagad meaning: to declare, to show, or to announce, would it then be correct to interpret verse 25 as saying....
    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the showing of Messiah [Meshiach Nagid] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    If so, what is the justification for using the verbal construct of Nagid [Nagad] in this particular case and not latter in the passage when it's used as Prince, referring to the title of someone in authority?
    Dan.9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince [Nagid] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    .
    Rose
    Hello my dear!

    I examined the etymology of that word to show why a "nagid" is called a "nagid." I did not say that the same meaning did not apply to the second occurence of "nagid" in Dan 9:26. On the contrary, exactly the same meaning applies. If we are correct that the "prince to come" refers to Titus, then it makes perfect sense that Scripture calls him a "nagid" because he most certainly was functioning in his role as a prominent public leader when he led the army that destroyed Jerusalem.

    Does that answer your question, or did I miss your meaning?

    Much love,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    Let me try again........

    What we agree upon........

    A----------------------------B (62 sevens).
    The decree to rebuild to the cutting off of Messiah

    What we should also agree.............

    A--------------------------------C (69 sevens).
    The decree to rebuild to Messiah the Prince

    Are we saying the same thing?

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Let me try again........

    What we agree upon........

    A----------------------------B (62 sevens).
    The decree to rebuild to the cutting off of Messiah
    No, that is where we disagree. I say there were 69 weeks from the command to rebuild unto Messiah the Prince:

    A----(7 weeks)----B--------(62 weeks)--------C---(1 week)---D

    A = The decree to rebuild
    B = Rebuilding complete (after 7 weeks)
    C = Messiah the Prince (after another 62 weeks, total of 69 weeks)

    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    What we should also agree.............

    A--------------------------------C (69 sevens).
    The decree to rebuild to Messiah the Prince

    Are we saying the same thing?

    Joel
    Yes. This is identical to what I said above.

    I am confused by the fact that you seem that the Messiah would be cut off during the 69th week. The text says that the Messiah the Prince would be cut off after the 69 weeks. I understand that to mean during the 70th week.

    I am also confused by the fact that you seem to put the seven weeks after the 62 weeks. According to what you wrote:

    A to B = 62 weeks, when B is the cutting off the Messiah (vs. 9:26). This can only mean the cross of Christ. He came as the suffering servant.

    A to C = 69 weeks, when C is the showing forth of Messiah Nagid.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hello my dear!

    I examined the etymology of that word to show why a "nagid" is called a "nagid." I did not say that the same meaning did not apply to the second occurence of "nagid" in Dan 9:26. On the contrary, exactly the same meaning applies. If we are correct that the "prince to come" refers to Titus, then it makes perfect sense that Scripture calls him a "nagid" because he most certainly was functioning in his role as a prominent public leader when he led the army that destroyed Jerusalem.

    Does that answer your question, or did I miss your meaning?

    Much love,

    Richard
    Hello back to you my Dear

    I think you missed my point.....

    If you take the verbal construct of Nagid [Nagad] meaning to declare, or to show, and apply that to the declaration of Messiah then you cannot also apply the meaning of Nagid as Prince, ruler, or captain to the same Messiah, otherwise you have a double application nagad//nagid, which would read something like this:
    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the showing of Messiah being ruler [Nagad Meshiach Nagid] shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Also, you are using the construct Nagid in the second occurrence when you apply it to Titus as being a captain of the Roman army, otherwise you would be saying:
    Dan.9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the declared one [Nagad] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    Lastly, you did not answer what was the justification for using Nagid in its verbal construct of Nagad when clearly Scripture does not use it that way.

    Hope I clarified my questions...
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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